RX10iv: Much improved tracking with Firmware 2.0 IMHO

[Stephen Ingraham]

Though Sony only promised Animal Eye Tracking with firmware 2.0, in fact the whole tracking game seems to be upgraded...at least to me. Tracking birds in flight at Bosque del Apache this year, the tracking auto focus seems to lock on and to stay locked on much faster and better than last year with firmware 1.0. To me the difference is obvious and enough to make a real difference. This morning I gave it a real test, attempting to track snow geese and sandhill cranes in heavy fog...and I was amazed at how well it worked. Tracking auto focus also seems to do a better job of locking on to the birds in motion in a flock of more or less stationary, or at least, slower moving birds...which makes catching cranes in confrontation much easier. It is so good, in fact, that I may make it my default focus mode for birds and wildlife. It even works well in low light. I am very happy! By the way, Sony is here at the Festival of the Cranes for the first time, with cameras and lenses to loan out. They claim to not have any info on a possible Rx10V...though one person at the booth hinted that there might be another firmware upgrade of an unspecified nature in the spring.




Center tracking auto focus, min. SS ISO at 1/2000th. Program mode.




Snow geese against a cloudy sky. (Note the Ross’s Goose, highest bird in the center




Tracking birds in the fog. lowered min ss ISO to 1/500th




It amazes me that this worked at all




Locked on to the two birds in motion surrounded by lots of stationary birds




Not easy with the geese in the background, before sunup. ISO 6400.

 

[IndianEye]

Though Sony only promised Animal Eye Tracking with firmware 2.0, in fact the whole tracking game seems to be upgraded...at least to me. Tracking birds in flight at Bosque del Apache this year, the tracking auto focus seems to lock on and to stay locked on much faster and better than last year with firmware 1.0. To me the difference is obvious and enough to make a real difference. This morning I gave it a real test, attempting to track snow geese and sandhill cranes in heavy fog...and I was amazed at how well it worked. Tracking auto focus also seems to do a better job of locking on to the birds in motion in a flock of more or less stationary, or at least, slower moving birds...which makes catching cranes in confrontation much easier. It is so good, in fact, that I may make it my default focus mode for birds and wildlife. It even works well in low light. I am very happy! By the way, Sony is here at the Festival of the Cranes for the first time, with cameras and lenses to loan out. They claim to not have any info on a possible Rx10V...though one person at the booth hinted that there might be another firmware upgrade of an unspecified nature in the spring.


Center tracking auto focus, min. SS ISO at 1/2000th. Program mode.

Wow, I find this one particularly captivating given the rather busy background. I'm heading to a place this Sunday where flamingos have started arriving as a part of their winter migration cycle. Look forward to seeing the improved tracking in action :-D

 

[jaco67]

Though Sony only promised Animal Eye Tracking with firmware 2.0, in fact the whole tracking game seems to be upgraded...at least to me. Tracking birds in flight at Bosque del Apache this year, the tracking auto focus seems to lock on and to stay locked on much faster and better than last year with firmware 1.0. To me the difference is obvious and enough to make a real difference. This morning I gave it a real test, attempting to track snow geese and sandhill cranes in heavy fog...and I was amazed at how well it worked. Tracking auto focus also seems to do a better job of locking on to the birds in motion in a flock of more or less stationary, or at least, slower moving birds...which makes catching cranes in confrontation much easier. It is so good, in fact, that I may make it my default focus mode for birds and wildlife. It even works well in low light. I am very happy! By the way, Sony is here at the Festival of the Cranes for the first time, with cameras and lenses to loan out. They claim to not have any info on a possible Rx10V...though one person at the booth hinted that there might be another firmware upgrade of an unspecified nature in the spring.

Sorry, English is not my mother language. Could you explain which AF default mode you have choosen? Many thanks for these nice pictures.

 

[Rodger1943]

Those look like really good results, Stephen. I wasn't going to worry about updating that firmware, but after seeing your images, I think I will do that now. Thanks for the information.

 

[Stephen Ingraham]

I generally shoot stationary birds in small or medium flexible spot, and birds in flight and action in center lock on auto focus. I am experimenting to see if I need to switch between modes. If i can use center or large expandable flexible spot lock on auto focus all the time that would simplify my life.

 

[Rapman]

That pic of the snows (and Ross) in flight is mesmerizing.

 

[AlwynS]

A comment and question please:

The comment: I have been quite satisfied with the functioning of my camera, including AF for BIF. Because of that (plus being a conservative engineering type that have seen numerous electronic products regress or develop issues when updating firmware), I have been subscribing to the "if it isn't broken, don't fix it" school of thought. I have therefore pretty much decided to NOT update the firmware. But if people have not been experiencing problems plus there is a small chance of AF improving even further, I might reconsider.

And FWIW: a few images from the recent past as indication of what I normally get from the camera. I am satisfied with this performance from the camera but obviously, better would be nice....

Snow Goose against background of other Snow Geese







The question: other than the first Sandhill Crane against the trees, your posted images are rather small. Unfortunately I find it difficult to properly evaluate images at this size: my bad. So I was wondering if they were cropped or downsized? If downsized: would you be able to post them at a larger size please?

Thanks kindly

--
Cheers
Alwyn

 

[Lensmate]

A comment and question please:

The comment: I have been quite satisfied with the functioning of my camera, including AF for BIF. Because of that (plus being a conservative engineering type that have seen numerous electronic products regress or develop issues when updating firmware), I have been subscribing to the "if it isn't broken, don't fix it" school of thought. I have therefore pretty much decided to NOT update the firmware. But if people have not been experiencing problems plus there is a small chance of AF improving even further, I might reconsider.

And FWIW: a few images from the recent past as indication of what I normally get from the camera. I am satisfied with this performance from the camera but obviously, better would be nice....

Snow Goose against background of other Snow Geese

The question: other than the first Sandhill Crane against the trees, your posted images are rather small. Unfortunately I find it difficult to properly evaluate images at this size: my bad. So I was wondering if they were cropped or downsized? If downsized: would you be able to post them at a larger size please?

Thanks kindly

This might help Alwyn:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/63346583

Notice your goose eye is not sharp!

-Martin P

Martin Passchier

Explore Martin Passchier’s 973 photos on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

 

[AlwynS]

A comment and question please:

The comment: I have been quite satisfied with the functioning of my camera, including AF for BIF. Because of that (plus being a conservative engineering type that have seen numerous electronic products regress or develop issues when updating firmware), I have been subscribing to the "if it isn't broken, don't fix it" school of thought. I have therefore pretty much decided to NOT update the firmware. But if people have not been experiencing problems plus there is a small chance of AF improving even further, I might reconsider.

And FWIW: a few images from the recent past as indication of what I normally get from the camera. I am satisfied with this performance from the camera but obviously, better would be nice....

Snow Goose against background of other Snow Geese

The question: other than the first Sandhill Crane against the trees, your posted images are rather small. Unfortunately I find it difficult to properly evaluate images at this size: my bad. So I was wondering if they were cropped or downsized? If downsized: would you be able to post them at a larger size please?

Thanks kindly

This might help Alwyn:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/63346583

Notice your goose eye is not sharp!

-Martin P

https://www.flickr.com/photos/photosauraus_rex/

For openers: please note that as I understand it, the OP (and please correct me if I am wrong Stephen) was NOT commenting on eye AF specifically, but rather that tracking generally seems to have been improved in the new release. That to me has potential value, hence my (hopefully accepted as respectful) request for clarification.

Again, as I did in the referenced post, I am not disputing that the eye of the Snow Goose that you have again mentioned is not in focus. And FWIW in that thread I posted a number of images where the eyes of the birds ARE in focus. At least to my unsophisticated eye. And I have many, many more. Over the two years that I have been using the camera I have literally thousands of BIF photographs where the bird covers a very large part of the frame and their eyes are in focus: you can blame "spray and pray" for that I suppose.

But. I am afraid this thread is not definitive in terms of eye AF for birds.

As regards Sony's Animal Eye AF: I have done a quick Google search/scan on the topic. And I frequently came across statements that indicate that Sony has not satisfactorily implemented eye AF for birds, even by their own admission. On Sony's own support sites, comments like (from the RX10IV firmware site) "To detect animal eyes, arrange the composition so that both eyes and the nose of the animal are within the angle of view. Once you focus on the animal’s face, the animal’s eyes will be detected more easily." and "When the subjects have cat- or dog-like faces and both eyes are clearly visible, the camera can easily detect the eye" are not confidence-inspiring for BIF. They also specifically note that "Animals that do not have cat- or dog-like faces" are hard to detect.

In addition there are several (amateur) "reviews" that a) have not tested BIF definitively and b) state that eye AF on perched birds (even close and with clearly visible, large eyes) is spotty. If you read the updated manual and other Sony blurb on the topic, it becomes pretty clear that their objective was for eye AF on slow moving "dog- and cat-like" animals that are not far away: pretty much the antithesis of fast moving, small, single eyed, "undoglike" BIF at a distance.

FWIW: if the OP's images are available in full size, uncropped, unresized, there are ways to identify the focus point using EXIF readers like PIE as Sony records that information. Using that one could quickly establish whether the camera was focussing on the eye specifically.

So (as I understood the OP's premise), while AF tracking generally has apparently been improved, I cannot see how one can comment on the success of BIF eye AF based on the post and the included images.

 

[Lensmate]

A comment and question please:

The comment: I have been quite satisfied with the functioning of my camera, including AF for BIF. Because of that (plus being a conservative engineering type that have seen numerous electronic products regress or develop issues when updating firmware), I have been subscribing to the "if it isn't broken, don't fix it" school of thought. I have therefore pretty much decided to NOT update the firmware. But if people have not been experiencing problems plus there is a small chance of AF improving even further, I might reconsider.

And FWIW: a few images from the recent past as indication of what I normally get from the camera. I am satisfied with this performance from the camera but obviously, better would be nice....

Snow Goose against background of other Snow Geese

The question: other than the first Sandhill Crane against the trees, your posted images are rather small. Unfortunately I find it difficult to properly evaluate images at this size: my bad. So I was wondering if they were cropped or downsized? If downsized: would you be able to post them at a larger size please?

Thanks kindly

This might help Alwyn:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/63346583

Notice your goose eye is not sharp!

-Martin P

https://www.flickr.com/photos/photosauraus_rex/

For openers: please note that as I understand it, the OP (and please correct me if I am wrong Stephen) was NOT commenting on eye AF specifically, but rather that tracking generally seems to have been improved in the new release. That to me has potential value, hence my (hopefully accepted as respectful) request for clarification.

Again, as I did in the referenced post, I am not disputing that the eye of the Snow Goose that you have again mentioned is not in focus. And FWIW in that thread I posted a number of images where the eyes of the birds ARE in focus. At least to my unsophisticated eye. And I have many, many more. Over the two years that I have been using the camera I have literally thousands of BIF photographs where the bird covers a very large part of the frame and their eyes are in focus: you can blame "spray and pray" for that I suppose.

But. I am afraid this thread is not definitive in terms of eye AF for birds.

As regards Sony's Animal Eye AF: I have done a quick Google search/scan on the topic. And I frequently came across statements that indicate that Sony has not satisfactorily implemented eye AF for birds, even by their own admission. On Sony's own support sites, comments like (from the RX10IV firmware site) "To detect animal eyes, arrange the composition so that both eyes and the nose of the animal are within the angle of view. Once you focus on the animal’s face, the animal’s eyes will be detected more easily." and "When the subjects have cat- or dog-like faces and both eyes are clearly visible, the camera can easily detect the eye" are not confidence-inspiring for BIF. They also specifically note that "Animals that do not have cat- or dog-like faces" are hard to detect.

In addition there are several (amateur) "reviews" that a) have not tested BIF definitively and b) state that eye AF on perched birds (even close and with clearly visible, large eyes) is spotty. If you read the updated manual and other Sony blurb on the topic, it becomes pretty clear that their objective was for eye AF on slow moving "dog- and cat-like" animals that are not far away: pretty much the antithesis of fast moving, small, single eyed, "undoglike" BIF at a distance.

FWIW: if the OP's images are available in full size, uncropped, unresized, there are ways to identify the focus point using EXIF readers like PIE as Sony records that information. Using that one could quickly establish whether the camera was focussing on the eye specifically.

So (as I understood the OP's premise), while AF tracking generally has apparently been improved, I cannot see how one can comment on the success of BIF eye AF based on the post and the included images.

Wouldn't hurt to download and try it for yourself. Otherwise, you don't have to use it [you do have a choice in the menu not to implement it] and can go back to practising getting the eye sharpness in camera by yourself. Might be a challenge for you, but that's what makes photography rewarding. Nobody said it was cheap and easy, or that everyone was born with an eye!

-Martin P

Martin Passchier

Explore Martin Passchier’s 973 photos on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

 

[AlwynS]

A comment and question please:

The comment: I have been quite satisfied with the functioning of my camera, including AF for BIF. Because of that (plus being a conservative engineering type that have seen numerous electronic products regress or develop issues when updating firmware), I have been subscribing to the "if it isn't broken, don't fix it" school of thought. I have therefore pretty much decided to NOT update the firmware. But if people have not been experiencing problems plus there is a small chance of AF improving even further, I might reconsider.

And FWIW: a few images from the recent past as indication of what I normally get from the camera. I am satisfied with this performance from the camera but obviously, better would be nice....

Snow Goose against background of other Snow Geese

The question: other than the first Sandhill Crane against the trees, your posted images are rather small. Unfortunately I find it difficult to properly evaluate images at this size: my bad. So I was wondering if they were cropped or downsized? If downsized: would you be able to post them at a larger size please?

Thanks kindly

This might help Alwyn:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/63346583

Notice your goose eye is not sharp!

-Martin P

https://www.flickr.com/photos/photosauraus_rex/

For openers: please note that as I understand it, the OP (and please correct me if I am wrong Stephen) was NOT commenting on eye AF specifically, but rather that tracking generally seems to have been improved in the new release. That to me has potential value, hence my (hopefully accepted as respectful) request for clarification.

Again, as I did in the referenced post, I am not disputing that the eye of the Snow Goose that you have again mentioned is not in focus. And FWIW in that thread I posted a number of images where the eyes of the birds ARE in focus. At least to my unsophisticated eye. And I have many, many more. Over the two years that I have been using the camera I have literally thousands of BIF photographs where the bird covers a very large part of the frame and their eyes are in focus: you can blame "spray and pray" for that I suppose.

But. I am afraid this thread is not definitive in terms of eye AF for birds.

As regards Sony's Animal Eye AF: I have done a quick Google search/scan on the topic. And I frequently came across statements that indicate that Sony has not satisfactorily implemented eye AF for birds, even by their own admission. On Sony's own support sites, comments like (from the RX10IV firmware site) "To detect animal eyes, arrange the composition so that both eyes and the nose of the animal are within the angle of view. Once you focus on the animal’s face, the animal’s eyes will be detected more easily." and "When the subjects have cat- or dog-like faces and both eyes are clearly visible, the camera can easily detect the eye" are not confidence-inspiring for BIF. They also specifically note that "Animals that do not have cat- or dog-like faces" are hard to detect.

In addition there are several (amateur) "reviews" that a) have not tested BIF definitively and b) state that eye AF on perched birds (even close and with clearly visible, large eyes) is spotty. If you read the updated manual and other Sony blurb on the topic, it becomes pretty clear that their objective was for eye AF on slow moving "dog- and cat-like" animals that are not far away: pretty much the antithesis of fast moving, small, single eyed, "undoglike" BIF at a distance.

FWIW: if the OP's images are available in full size, uncropped, unresized, there are ways to identify the focus point using EXIF readers like PIE as Sony records that information. Using that one could quickly establish whether the camera was focussing on the eye specifically.

So (as I understood the OP's premise), while AF tracking generally has apparently been improved, I cannot see how one can comment on the success of BIF eye AF based on the post and the included images.

Wouldn't hurt to download and try it for yourself.

You are right: I should get over this silly "update paranoia" and just do it. As stated on the download page, the "Improves the overall stability of the camera" part alone should be worth it.

Otherwise, you don't have to use it [you do have a choice in the menu not to implement it] and can go back to practising getting the eye sharpness in camera by yourself. Might be a challenge for you, but that's what makes photography rewarding. Nobody said it was cheap and easy, or that everyone was born with an eye!

-Martin P

https://www.flickr.com/photos/photosauraus_rex/

 

[AlwynS]

A comment and question please:

The comment: I have been quite satisfied with the functioning of my camera, including AF for BIF. Because of that (plus being a conservative engineering type that have seen numerous electronic products regress or develop issues when updating firmware), I have been subscribing to the "if it isn't broken, don't fix it" school of thought. I have therefore pretty much decided to NOT update the firmware. But if people have not been experiencing problems plus there is a small chance of AF improving even further, I might reconsider.

And FWIW: a few images from the recent past as indication of what I normally get from the camera. I am satisfied with this performance from the camera but obviously, better would be nice....

Snow Goose against background of other Snow Geese

The question: other than the first Sandhill Crane against the trees, your posted images are rather small. Unfortunately I find it difficult to properly evaluate images at this size: my bad. So I was wondering if they were cropped or downsized? If downsized: would you be able to post them at a larger size please?

Thanks kindly

This might help Alwyn:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/63346583

Notice your goose eye is not sharp!

-Martin P

https://www.flickr.com/photos/photosauraus_rex/

For openers: please note that as I understand it, the OP (and please correct me if I am wrong Stephen) was NOT commenting on eye AF specifically, but rather that tracking generally seems to have been improved in the new release. That to me has potential value, hence my (hopefully accepted as respectful) request for clarification.

Again, as I did in the referenced post, I am not disputing that the eye of the Snow Goose that you have again mentioned is not in focus. And FWIW in that thread I posted a number of images where the eyes of the birds ARE in focus. At least to my unsophisticated eye. And I have many, many more. Over the two years that I have been using the camera I have literally thousands of BIF photographs where the bird covers a very large part of the frame and their eyes are in focus: you can blame "spray and pray" for that I suppose.

But. I am afraid this thread is not definitive in terms of eye AF for birds.

As regards Sony's Animal Eye AF: I have done a quick Google search/scan on the topic. And I frequently came across statements that indicate that Sony has not satisfactorily implemented eye AF for birds, even by their own admission. On Sony's own support sites, comments like (from the RX10IV firmware site) "To detect animal eyes, arrange the composition so that both eyes and the nose of the animal are within the angle of view. Once you focus on the animal’s face, the animal’s eyes will be detected more easily." and "When the subjects have cat- or dog-like faces and both eyes are clearly visible, the camera can easily detect the eye" are not confidence-inspiring for BIF. They also specifically note that "Animals that do not have cat- or dog-like faces" are hard to detect.

In addition there are several (amateur) "reviews" that a) have not tested BIF definitively and b) state that eye AF on perched birds (even close and with clearly visible, large eyes) is spotty. If you read the updated manual and other Sony blurb on the topic, it becomes pretty clear that their objective was for eye AF on slow moving "dog- and cat-like" animals that are not far away: pretty much the antithesis of fast moving, small, single eyed, "undoglike" BIF at a distance.

FWIW: if the OP's images are available in full size, uncropped, unresized, there are ways to identify the focus point using EXIF readers like PIE as Sony records that information. Using that one could quickly establish whether the camera was focussing on the eye specifically.

So (as I understood the OP's premise), while AF tracking generally has apparently been improved, I cannot see how one can comment on the success of BIF eye AF based on the post and the included images.

Wouldn't hurt to download and try it for yourself.

You are right: I should get over this silly "update paranoia" and just do it. As stated on the download page, the "Improves the overall stability of the camera" part alone should be worth it.

Otherwise, you don't have to use it [you do have a choice in the menu not to implement it] and can go back to practising getting the eye sharpness in camera by yourself. Might be a challenge for you, but that's what makes photography rewarding. Nobody said it was cheap and easy, or that everyone was born with an eye!

-Martin P

https://www.flickr.com/photos/photosauraus_rex/

OK did it. Will start testing tomorrow.

 

[Lensmate]

OK did it. Will start testing tomorrow.

Lets hope it works out alright for you...

-Martin P

Martin Passchier

Explore Martin Passchier’s 973 photos on Flickr!

www.flickr.com

 

[Kerusker]

OK did it. Will start testing tomorrow.

Alwyn,

looking forward to your tests, evaluations and results.

Please put some effort in this, because you are one of 'our' BIF experts and best BIF photographers.

There are some wording problems regarding Sony AF /tracking terminology. Therefore I may hint to the following:

The RX10M4 has a 'AF Track Sensitivity' for movies:

vvvvvv old Help-pdf for RX10M4 page 234 vvvvvv

AF Track Sens (movie)

You can set the AF sensitivity in movie mode.

Menu item details

Responsive:

Sets the AF sensitivity to high. This mode is useful when recording movies in which the subject is moving quickly.

Standard:

Sets the AF sensitivity to normal. This mode is useful when there are obstacles in front of the subject or in crowded places.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

And the RX10M4 has 'AF Tracking Sensitivity' for stills/bursts similar to the alpha9 but hard coded (= 3 ?). This may have been changed by Sony with FW 2.0 easily.

vvvvvvv alpha9 Help vvvvvvvvvvv

AF Tracking Sensitivity (alpha9)

AF-C Focus Mode has five levels of focus tracking.

1 (Locked on) to 2: Low tracking sensitivity (prioritizes stability)

Focus position is stable and stays locked on to the selected subject.

4 to 5 (Responsive): High tracking sensitivity (prioritizes responsiveness)

The camera focuses quickly on nearby subjects instead of tracking a single subject.

Difference between [1 (Locked on)] when using AF tracking sensitivity and [Lock-on AF]

[1 (Locked on)] is one of the settings in AF Track Sens (AF tracking sensitivity). In this setting, the camera keeps the focus on a specific subject when other objects pass in front of the subject.

On the other hand, the [Lock-on AF] and [Center Lock-on AF] functions on this camera allow the camera to shift the focusing frame in accordance with the subject’s movement.

Although these names are similar, their functions are different. Please be sure to distinguish between them.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Alwyn, would be nice if you could have a closer look into this - thanks.

 

[Stephen Ingraham]

Posted on hotel wi-fi. After the first upload took 5 minutes I downsized the remainder to accommodate the wi-fi and my schedule. I will post there at full resolution to my Smugmug site next week where you can view them at any size.

 

[Stephen Ingraham]

This is correct. Animal eye tracking is specifically NOT implemented for birds on any Sony camera. I had a long discussion with one of the Sony people about what it would take and it seems to be beyond what the want to attempt right now. My comments were on tracking auto focus not animal eye tracking.

 

[tbcass]

If the preponderance of upgraders report the same results as you I will chance the upgrade. Until then I'll wait.

 

[tbcass]

Thanks for your post AlynS because your thoughts echo mine. Some times hopes and expectations can subjectively make a user think things have improved when they have not. I would love to see a test between 2 RX10iv, one with v1 and one with v2, set up identically and used simultaneously by 2 skilled users. Then they should switch cameras and repeat the test. After taking a few hundred photos the number of in focus and out of focus photos should be compared.

 

[tbcass]

You are right: I should get over this silly "update paranoia" and just do it. As stated on the download page, the "Improves the overall stability of the camera" part alone should be worth it.

What stability problems have you experienced? I have never experienced any in 1 1/2 years and over 10,000 photos.

 

[hwvlover]

in case it is my brain or my camera not functioning correctly. Or both.
I decided to leave Face/Eye Priority on with the subject detection set to Animal. I did this for my bird photography as I continue to experiment to see whether the eye AF can work with small birds. I also know it would default back to my set focus area, expand flexible spot, if it couldn't "grab" an eye.
I noticed that with the subject setting at Animal I can no longer access any of the lock-on AF settings. This make sense as it is in the setting title...."Face/Eye Priority". However it does beg the question when taking in-flight birds ...what focus setting is being utilised if the AF does not find an eye.

It is also perhaps worth mentioning that even with Face/Eye Priority turned off I still cannot access the Lock-on AF settings as long as the subject is set to Animal. If I want to to access those even though the Priority is off I need to change that to Human.
Perhaps someone could see if it is the same for them.
And, by the way, so far using Eye priority I have been unable to get a lock on small birds. Distance about 10-12 feet.
Regards,
David
***************************************
Growing old is inevitable; growing up, however, is optional.
And I have opted out.