16-80 Please check your copy - Focus Issue narrowed down

[Stoneh Ray]

First of all, apologies for another 16-80 thread, however I believe I have found the cause for my problems with this lens.

I have narrowed down the focus issues with my copy of the lens, please check yours as the behavior is very strange. I thought my unsharp images were because I was running firmware 3.0 on my XT3, I updated to 3.01 and the next batch of normal snapshots I took looked good. So I decided to stop getting paranoid and enjoy the lens.

I went out today and with confidence to enjoy some photography, however it turned out to be a snapshot testing session as I was once again disappointed with the images.

What i have discovered is that any images between 1/100 to around 1/220 the images are not sharp, its not a back/front focus issue as nothing is sharp. I took a shot at F4 1/320 and one at 1/180 F8. (I had no problems acquiring focus for any of the shots.)

I would have expected both to be good, the F4 shot was better as the shutter speed was faster, however 180/s at 120mm for a lens with 6 stop IS should not be an issue, camera operator error? not when you have repeated tests over 10 times.

I did some tests again when I got home, took same picture with XH1 and XT3.

No problems whatsoever with X-H1, even image at 1/30s was sharp at 120mm.

I have no problems with focus on X-T3 on any of my primes primes. 23 1.4, 35 1.4 and 56 1.2 so I think its IS related issue, or shutter shock?

Anyways, I would like to hear from the experienced guys here as I would like to confirm

a) My lens is faulty

b) Wider Issue with this particular lens model

These are straight out of camera full size images for your observations.

I do not have any other fuji bodies to try this im afraid, but if you have this lens please try and see if the issue above can be replicated.

Thanks in advance

Focus was on bench smallest area

XT3



XH1



The next scene is with XT3 only - only shutter speed difference





Another 1/160/s poor image



still poor at 1/200



Good sharpness once over 1/300s - focused on the Van

 

[tokumeino]

You should try with electronic shutter only, to eliminate the shutter shock hypothesis. Indeed, issues in a particular SS range reminds me a lot my M43 days :-(

 

[Stoneh Ray]

You should try with electronic shutter only, to eliminate the shutter shock hypothesis. Indeed, issues in a particular SS range reminds me a lot my M43 days :-(

ES it works ok and is sharper, MS is causing degradation in IQ. I tried it with IS on and off, no difference so it's not OIS. I will do more tests tomorrow, but if it's MS causing it.. surely it must affect other owners who use this lens with XT3.

I doubt if anything is wrong with the body as other lens work fine, and this lens works fine with x-h1. So it has to be compatability/firmware issue.

 

[BillCPA]

You should try with electronic shutter only, to eliminate the shutter shock hypothesis. Indeed, issues in a particular SS range reminds me a lot my M43 days :-(

First of all, let me say that I'm very happy with the 16-80 (it meets my expectations) ... as event photographer I mainly use fast primes, so the 16-80 is mainly a 'walking around/vacation' lens ... it focuses very fast, has a very smooth zoom, and in my opinion 'sharp' images (very subjective)

However, based on your comment about trying electronic shutter, I did run some very unscientific tests (photographed all the displays on our washing machine .... ) ... many tests with shutter speeds below 1/100th most at F5 ... ISO 3200 ... hand-held ... and I have to say that in almost all cases ... zoomed to 100 percent, the electronic shutters versions were slightly sharper than the mechanical shutter versions ... interesting.

Bill

 

[foglifter]

I have thought the OOF issues is a bit higher than with my other lenses but have been unsure why - maybe user error - I still can't pin it down.

Thought I would try your shutter speed ideal. Here's the pics:

I took 5 in a row with a higher shutter speed then 5 lower - focusing on something else between each shot so the lens would have to refocus, IOS on "shot" only. Results were the same.

Looking at the center post grain in the frame centre it does seem the focus is out just a bit on the lower shutter speed or I have worse IQ at F7.1 vs F4 which would be had to believe.

I don't know what to think.





F4 1/550sec 80mm iso200





F7.1 1/160 sec 80mm iso200

 

[allemania]

Although I do not own the 16-80, I'm writing this because I have two zooms that overlap significantly with it.

I've been using the focus distance indicator on all my Fuji's (X-T10, X-T20 and X-H1) ever since I started getting more out of focus images than I thought was acceptable on my X-H1 with the 16-55.

My observation after comparing my primes (23 1.4, 35 1.4, 60 2.4) to my two primarily used zooms (18-55, 16-55) is that the primes' autofocus accuracy is significantly superior to the two zooms when taking landscape type shots similar to what you have posted. This experience was consistent on all three of my bodies. Another user with similar autofocus issues called it a "vulnerability" and I have to agree.

As an example, with either of my zooms when focusing on a high contrast area (where a tree's leaves meet a blue sky) at a moderate distance (say 30 meters), repeated presses of the shutter button result in the lenses focusing at wildly different distances. Sometimes the initial press appears accurate per the focus distance indicator scale, but many times it's not even close, giving a reading of 3.0 or 5.0 meters or, conversely, infinity. I can repeat this behavior easily.

Some have pointed out that the focus distance scale may be inaccurate, so to check this in camera I did the following: In AF-S, I would use the shutter button to focus on the tree, then switch to manual focus with the toggle switch on the body and focus peaking would give me a quick check of focus accuracy. Sure enough, each time the focus distance indicator showed an illogical reading the focus peaking would corroborate it.

My primes, by contrast, are wonderfully accurate. In the same situation, they nail focus on the first try almost without fail. Repeated presses of the shutter button to intentionally cause the primes to miss focus can eventually succeed, but it may take as many as 10 tries. Most importantly to me, initial autofocus hit rate is very high.

As a result, when using my 18-55 and 16-55, I trust my focus distance indicator and refocus when needed. It's the only solution I've found for this issue.

Interestingly, at closer distances and reasonable scene contrast where focusing, the zooms are wonderfully accurate and no different than my primes.

 

[Pal2Tech]

I have a whole video on this 16-80mm lens. Other issues I found. Hope this helps.
Review here:

 

[guzzi850m2]

I have a whole video on this 16-80mm lens. Other issues I found. Hope this helps.
Review here:

Thank you very much, excellent and in my opinion honest review and very well made.

 

[VinceC]

Although I do not own the 16-80, I'm writing this because I have two zooms that overlap significantly with it.

I've been using the focus distance indicator on all my Fuji's (X-T10, X-T20 and X-H1) ever since I started getting more out of focus images than I thought was acceptable on my X-H1 with the 16-55.

My observation after comparing my primes (23 1.4, 35 1.4, 60 2.4) to my two primarily used zooms (18-55, 16-55) is that the primes' autofocus accuracy is significantly superior to the two zooms when taking landscape type shots similar to what you have posted. This experience was consistent on all three of my bodies. Another user with similar autofocus issues called it a "vulnerability" and I have to agree.

As an example, with either of my zooms when focusing on a high contrast area (where a tree's leaves meet a blue sky) at a moderate distance (say 30 meters), repeated presses of the shutter button result in the lenses focusing at wildly different distances. Sometimes the initial press appears accurate per the focus distance indicator scale, but many times it's not even close, giving a reading of 3.0 or 5.0 meters or, conversely, infinity. I can repeat this behavior easily.

Some have pointed out that the focus distance scale may be inaccurate, so to check this in camera I did the following: In AF-S, I would use the shutter button to focus on the tree, then switch to manual focus with the toggle switch on the body and focus peaking would give me a quick check of focus accuracy. Sure enough, each time the focus distance indicator showed an illogical reading the focus peaking would corroborate it.

My primes, by contrast, are wonderfully accurate. In the same situation, they nail focus on the first try almost without fail. Repeated presses of the shutter button to intentionally cause the primes to miss focus can eventually succeed, but it may take as many as 10 tries. Most importantly to me, initial autofocus hit rate is very high.

As a result, when using my 18-55 and 16-55, I trust my focus distance indicator and refocus when needed. It's the only solution I've found for this issue.

Interestingly, at closer distances and reasonable scene contrast where focusing, the zooms are wonderfully accurate and no different than my primes.

You could have been using my cameras. Your description of cross checking with manual focus is exactly what I find with my 18-55, 18-135, and the 16-80 I had briefly.

Two shoots yesterday, With both, IS was set to shooting only, shutter was electronic front curtain, I used shutter priority for shutter release, and on eash shot focus was confrimed by the bleep and th eflashing green square.

First, was at a Steampunks event with my XH1, 18-135 and 60mm. The 60mm performed flawlessly. The 18-135 performed well with people shots, mostly taken at f8 and 3-5 metres distance. I took some shots at 50 metres distance of a crowd of Steampunks boarding a steam train. f8 and around 1/200 sec. Where I focused on the approaching steam train the shots were sharp. Where I focused on the Steampunks in the platform (a busy and contrasty target) nothing was sharp. I was shooting fairly quickly, I believe I was using the central focus spot, it was the third smallest and focus was in S mode. FL of the lens was 135mm. I plan to post some examples later.

Yestedday evening I took the XH1, 60mm, and 23mm f2 to a gig. The band was 5-10 metres distant, lighting was low, so I was shooting at iso 3200, f4 and around 1/30 sec, third smallest focus area, on and off centre, S focus. Focus was very reliable.

I'm increasingly convinced that there is a vulnerability with Fuji X series cameras' autofocus. The effect has been the same on my two H1s and to a lesser extent on my T3. I don't remember seeing it on my previous T1&2, and I used the 18-135 lens a lot with them. I'm still trying to narrow down the root cause, I'm going to revisit back button focus (on a previous test it didn't make much difference) and in the meantime use manual focus and watch the distance scale more. I need to find a solution as this is increasingly becoming a serious Achilles heel of otherwise excellent cameras.

--
Best regards
Vince C

 

[clivef]

Thanks for this, Yes ES or EFC (mode) is consistently sharper than MS only (which I rarely use anyway) but must remember to avoid, with this lens/camera combination (XT3). The superior XH1 shutter mechanism must dampen the first curtain shock so it has minimal interference.

 

[stillman3]

I just submitted this contribution to a thread on focus issues with an X-H1. I was using the 16-80 so thought it may be relevent.

Focus Issue with Recent X Series Bodies, In Particular X-H1

Background and Problem I have posted several times on this issue before – and my apologies for a long post below. I had an issue with an X-H1 I bought in August 2018, blurred images in landscape type shots, all singly shot with “S” focus. Near distance shots of people, objects and street views...

www.dpreview.com

Rico Pfirstinger has made a suggestion which may help here.

Cheers Eric

 

[allemania]

I just submitted this contribution to a thread on focus issues with an X-H1. I was using the 16-80 so thought it may be relevent.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/63195029

Rico Pfirstinger has made a suggestion which may help here.

Cheers Eric

Thank you very much for the link.

The quotes you posted from Rico Pfirstinger are an EXACT description of what I have experienced. I have tested using back button to improve the autofocus accuracy for the specific type of scenes we are referring to (distant shots) and it appears to offer an improvement. Unfortunately for me, using BBF on the X-H1 is not a comfortable fit since I have smaller hands and negatively impacts the joy of using this camera. Oh well :-(

It is frustrating and perplexing that a camera manufacturer would design such a wonderful shutter mechanism only to have it crippled with this intermittent flaw, at least with their zooms.

Given that a professional photographer (Pfiirstinger) has exhaustively used these cameras, taken the time to document his findings in a book, and those findings regarding autofocus accuracy precisely fit my experience, as well as numerous others, I've come to the conclusion that this is simply an idiosyncrasy of these cameras. I don't believe any more "testing" on my part is going to find a solution.

There's so much to love about these cameras that I'll just adapt for now.

 

[Yannis1976]

Hi,

I just did a quick test with the XH1 and the 16-80 at 80mm/f4 both with MS and EF testing shutter speeds from 1/80 - 1/200 and did not find any SS issue...

Thx

 

[tokumeino]

Seems like nobody complains with XH1 and several ones with the XT3.

Any feedback with XT30 ? With electronic and regular shutter, in the 1/100 to 1/250 range ?

 

[foglifter]

Went out today with my XT20 and 16 - 80. First pic is with MS and second with ES. Both at 80mm and 1/160 sec. As you can see there is a difference when zoomed in. It would seem to me this is shutter shake but I'm no expert. Is it the lens or the camera causing this? Almost wish I hadn't swallowed the red pill. Once you know it's happening what can I do? By the way I had similar results at 1/400 sec. I didn't think to try higher shutter speeds than that. Maybe tomorrow will go try my 18 - 55 lens.




ms




es

 

[tokumeino]

Went out today with my XT20 and 16 - 80. First pic is with MS and second with ES. Both at 80mm and 1/160 sec. As you can see there is a difference when zoomed in. It would seem to me this is shutter shake but I'm no expert. Is it the lens or the camera causing this?

It's the body's shutter causing a vibration when operating. M43 (especially Olympus) have been affected by this during a looong time and some lenses were known to be more prone to let the issue exhibit. I've never understood why, because to my understanding, shutter shock was moving the sensor (due to IBIS) and I coudln't understand why lenses made a difference. Somebody here will be probably more helpfull.

Almost wish I hadn't swallowed the red pill. Once you know it's happening what can I do?

Shoot ES even if not hearing the shutter sound is boring at the highest point !

It seems that others (like here : https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4360478) have a similar issue with other bodies and other lenses. I have a 16-80 on its way, so I'll try carefully as soon as I get it.

 

[foglifter]

Link didn't work but I know Stoneh Ray first brought this to my attention. I do a bit of landscape with flowing water effects from a river or stream so I'm a bit concerned about how ES would effect that. Also what's with all the hype about six stops OIS if it's just negated by shutter shake. So many questions...........

 

[foglifter]

Ok got out for a quick shot with xt20 and 18 - 55 lens. Both shots 1/200 sec. I think the shutter shake is less with this lens.




MS 55mm




ES 55mm

 

[Montanawildlives]

I started a similar thread about a year ago, might be interesting :

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4323106

 

[Clive99]

You should try with electronic shutter only, to eliminate the shutter shock hypothesis. Indeed, issues in a particular SS range reminds me a lot my M43 days :-(

ES it works ok and is sharper, MS is causing degradation in IQ. I tried it with IS on and off, no difference so it's not OIS. I will do more tests tomorrow, but if it's MS causing it.. surely it must affect other owners who use this lens with XT3.

I doubt if anything is wrong with the body as other lens work fine, and this lens works fine with x-h1. So it has to be compatability/firmware issue.

I have posted on this topic with my 18-55 a few times. My theory is that shutter shock is exciting the floating ois element..whether ois is on or not. All my shots with the 16-80 so far have been with EFC shutter for this reason.

Clive