Future of X-H1 line?

[Canadianguy]

how much inventory do they have to clear in Japan and what does it say about the future of the X-H line?

Who knows? It could be that they know what other companies are working on or that if they let this go cheap, they get more users hooked.

I read the rumours article above when the first clear out sale started but Fujifilm's actions is just really odd if an X-H replacement is not coming in 2019 and maybe not even 2020...

It is odd, but they have many cameras and with the X-Pro3, we start a brand new revamp cycle for all models.

Not sure why you’d think the X-Pro3 will start “a brand new revamp cycle”.

Traditionally, it does. In the past the X-Pro got the new sensor first.

That’s a real stretch. Obviously the X-Pro1 “got the new sensor first” as it was the first of a whole new line.

Right...

After that, the X-Pro1 limped on for years while the next new sensor went in the XE2 first (or was it the X100S?) and didn’t come to the X-Pro at all.

We are seriously going to call that a new sensor? Maybe a new processor.

Eventually the next sensor went into the belated X-Pro2 yes,

The first 24mp sensor. I would say that was important.

but here we are again with the fourth sensor already having gone to the XT3. “Traditionally” the X-Pro gets the new sensor only 50% of the time at most.

With only two versions of the X-Pro that makes sense no? My point is that it is a special camera to Fuji and they won't handicap it.

I’d bet good money it’s the exact same sensor and processor from the XT3 simply in new clothes.

Maybe...we will see. Fuji hasn't said anything yet.

Knowing Fuji’s modus operandi there’s no way they’d use that sensor only in the XT3 and XT30, all in the space of just months, and then switch to something else entirely.

Well, it will be a hard sell then because it is already in a $899 camera. That is my thinking.

The XT20 came out only months after the X-Pro2, complete with the same sensor/processor and even 4K that the XP2 lacked at the time.

Huh? It was a year later.

The X-Pro2 went on to coexist with a few internally identical models for a couple of years, without any great drop in price. The truth is the X-Pro line has never competed on technology, it’s always been about the experience.

True, but it always has the new sensor...

Let's be honest... the 26mp sensor is in no way an upgrade to the 24mp sensor. The X-Pro3 will be around for another 4 years with that 1 year old sensor? Seems like a bad idea.

It could easily go three years. The current X-Pro2 has survived the launch of the XT3 for a full year now.

Survived, but how well has it sold during that time?

And actually, yes of course the 26mp sensor is an upgrade because it allows faster AF in lower light and less rolling shutter - these things are all improvements and come with a pretty minimal trade off at high iso.

True, but many of us would prefer better high ISO and better dynamic range, not worse.

We’ve probably got at least another year of new X-Trans IV models, including the X-Pro3, X100x(?), XE4, perhaps an XH2 and who knows what else.

And we could see a new sensor for all of them. The X-T3 gets updated more frequently.

Pretty unlikely.

You could be right... but you might not be.

The XT3 started the current cycle and it’ll be that model that benefits the most from firmware updates over time as each new model is released with another standout feature that can be backported (the X-Pro2 occupied this fortuitous position in the last third-gen cycle).

We will see. As I said, it'll be a tough sell to put a year old sensor... one that is used already in a lower end $899 camera ... into the X-Pro3 and sell it for $2000. It is clear that the X-Pro3 is special to Fuji.

They launched the X-H1 at a hitherto unknown high flagship price despite basing it on an old sensor used in various cheaper bodies.

They figured IBIS would be the big selling point.

The X-Pro3 is clearly more niche and arguably has much more of a USP even than IBIS.

Ok...

Fujifilm has never differentiated their models based on sensors - it has always been - reuse the same sensor across the entire model range - then refresh with the next one.

Of course, anything is possible in the future but to put a different sensor in the X-Pro line would mean increased costs and the X-Pro model being a low sales volume model - I don't see how they can justify it.

From their preview - they are going make the X-Pro model out of Titanium - not exactly a cheap material to work with...that's probably going to push it to $2 K all by itself - forget about putting a new sensor in.

I wondered why the X-Pro2 hasn't really had any sales on it and I think its because they produced so little of them as they were not expected big sales on that model. I think it will be the same for the X-Pro3 - its going to be a small production run or very small batches stretched out over a long period of time - they don't want to be sitting on a bunch of inventory like they are with the X-H1.

 

[Threaded]

how much inventory do they have to clear in Japan and what does it say about the future of the X-H line?

Who knows? It could be that they know what other companies are working on or that if they let this go cheap, they get more users hooked.

I read the rumours article above when the first clear out sale started but Fujifilm's actions is just really odd if an X-H replacement is not coming in 2019 and maybe not even 2020...

It is odd, but they have many cameras and with the X-Pro3, we start a brand new revamp cycle for all models.

Not sure why you’d think the X-Pro3 will start “a brand new revamp cycle”.

Traditionally, it does. In the past the X-Pro got the new sensor first.

That’s a real stretch. Obviously the X-Pro1 “got the new sensor first” as it was the first of a whole new line.

Right...

After that, the X-Pro1 limped on for years while the next new sensor went in the XE2 first (or was it the X100S?) and didn’t come to the X-Pro at all.

We are seriously going to call that a new sensor? Maybe a new processor.

Fuji called it a new sensor (X-Trans II). It had a new phase detect array.

Are we seriously calling putting a new sensor in the X-Pro2 a “tradition”?

Eventually the next sensor went into the belated X-Pro2 yes,

The first 24mp sensor. I would say that was important.

Phase detect was important (haven’t you used an X-Pro1?!)

The current 26mp is backside illuminated for the first time to allow for PD right across the frame and with much lower light sensor sensitivity - all important too.

but here we are again with the fourth sensor already having gone to the XT3. “Traditionally” the X-Pro gets the new sensor only 50% of the time at most.

With only two versions of the X-Pro that makes sense no? My point is that it is a special camera to Fuji and they won't handicap it.

Putting their best current tech into the camera isn’t “handicapping” it. If we’re going to talk Fuji tradition, one very well established tradition is that when Fuji develop a new generation of sensor and processor (which always come in pairs) they make the absolute most of them, through putting them in as many different models and form factors as possible and simultaneously improving them throughout the cycle via firmware over a period of years. They don’t just stick them in two models and then scrap them for something else months later.

I’d bet good money it’s the exact same sensor and processor from the XT3 simply in new clothes.

Maybe...we will see. Fuji hasn't said anything yet.

Knowing Fuji’s modus operandi there’s no way they’d use that sensor only in the XT3 and XT30, all in the space of just months, and then switch to something else entirely.

Well, it will be a hard sell then because it is already in a $899 camera. That is my thinking.

The XT20 came out only months after the X-Pro2, complete with the same sensor/processor and even 4K that the XP2 lacked at the time.

Huh? It was a year later.

You’re right, my bad; but the X-Pro2 still went on to outlast the XT20, it wasn’t made obsolete by the presence of a cheaper camera with the same sensor. Nobody seriously in the market for the X-Pro3 now is going to shrug and buy an XT30 instead just because it has the same sensor.

The X-Pro2 went on to coexist with a few internally identical models for a couple of years, without any great drop in price. The truth is the X-Pro line has never competed on technology, it’s always been about the experience.

True, but it always has the new sensor...

The rumour sites would be all over it if there was a new sensor coming. With the XT3 we were already hearing very confident rumours of a new 26mp sensor even before the XH1 appeared, months before the XT3’s release.

One rumour we have heard is that Classic Negative (the new film sim launching with the X-Pro3) will be coming to the XT3 and XT30 via a “kaizen” update. That only ever happens when models share a common sensor/processor platform.

Let's be honest... the 26mp sensor is in no way an upgrade to the 24mp sensor. The X-Pro3 will be around for another 4 years with that 1 year old sensor? Seems like a bad idea.

It could easily go three years. The current X-Pro2 has survived the launch of the XT3 for a full year now.

Survived, but how well has it sold during that time?

It’s almost four years old now so who knows, but it’s notable that unlike the substantially younger XH1, its list price has barely changed to this day.

And actually, yes of course the 26mp sensor is an upgrade because it allows faster AF in lower light and less rolling shutter - these things are all improvements and come with a pretty minimal trade off at high iso.

True, but many of us would prefer better high ISO and better dynamic range, not worse.

And maybe in a couple of years Fuji will provide that, fingers crossed I guess?

 

[John Gellings]

how much inventory do they have to clear in Japan and what does it say about the future of the X-H line?

Who knows? It could be that they know what other companies are working on or that if they let this go cheap, they get more users hooked.

I read the rumours article above when the first clear out sale started but Fujifilm's actions is just really odd if an X-H replacement is not coming in 2019 and maybe not even 2020...

It is odd, but they have many cameras and with the X-Pro3, we start a brand new revamp cycle for all models.

Not sure why you’d think the X-Pro3 will start “a brand new revamp cycle”.

Traditionally, it does. In the past the X-Pro got the new sensor first.

That’s a real stretch. Obviously the X-Pro1 “got the new sensor first” as it was the first of a whole new line.

Right...

After that, the X-Pro1 limped on for years while the next new sensor went in the XE2 first (or was it the X100S?) and didn’t come to the X-Pro at all.

We are seriously going to call that a new sensor? Maybe a new processor.

Eventually the next sensor went into the belated X-Pro2 yes,

The first 24mp sensor. I would say that was important.

but here we are again with the fourth sensor already having gone to the XT3. “Traditionally” the X-Pro gets the new sensor only 50% of the time at most.

With only two versions of the X-Pro that makes sense no? My point is that it is a special camera to Fuji and they won't handicap it.

I’d bet good money it’s the exact same sensor and processor from the XT3 simply in new clothes.

Maybe...we will see. Fuji hasn't said anything yet.

Knowing Fuji’s modus operandi there’s no way they’d use that sensor only in the XT3 and XT30, all in the space of just months, and then switch to something else entirely.

Well, it will be a hard sell then because it is already in a $899 camera. That is my thinking.

The XT20 came out only months after the X-Pro2, complete with the same sensor/processor and even 4K that the XP2 lacked at the time.

Huh? It was a year later.

The X-Pro2 went on to coexist with a few internally identical models for a couple of years, without any great drop in price. The truth is the X-Pro line has never competed on technology, it’s always been about the experience.

True, but it always has the new sensor...

Let's be honest... the 26mp sensor is in no way an upgrade to the 24mp sensor. The X-Pro3 will be around for another 4 years with that 1 year old sensor? Seems like a bad idea.

It could easily go three years. The current X-Pro2 has survived the launch of the XT3 for a full year now.

Survived, but how well has it sold during that time?

And actually, yes of course the 26mp sensor is an upgrade because it allows faster AF in lower light and less rolling shutter - these things are all improvements and come with a pretty minimal trade off at high iso.

True, but many of us would prefer better high ISO and better dynamic range, not worse.

We’ve probably got at least another year of new X-Trans IV models, including the X-Pro3, X100x(?), XE4, perhaps an XH2 and who knows what else.

And we could see a new sensor for all of them. The X-T3 gets updated more frequently.

Pretty unlikely.

You could be right... but you might not be.

The XT3 started the current cycle and it’ll be that model that benefits the most from firmware updates over time as each new model is released with another standout feature that can be backported (the X-Pro2 occupied this fortuitous position in the last third-gen cycle).

We will see. As I said, it'll be a tough sell to put a year old sensor... one that is used already in a lower end $899 camera ... into the X-Pro3 and sell it for $2000. It is clear that the X-Pro3 is special to Fuji.

They launched the X-H1 at a hitherto unknown high flagship price despite basing it on an old sensor used in various cheaper bodies.

They figured IBIS would be the big selling point.

The X-Pro3 is clearly more niche and arguably has much more of a USP even than IBIS.

Ok...

Fujifilm has never differentiated their models based on sensors - it has always been - reuse the same sensor across the entire model range - then refresh with the next one.

That’s not what I said at all. All I said is that the X-Pro1 was the first to use the 16mp sensor and the X-Pro2 was the first to use the 24mp sensor. Now you are telling me that Fuji is going to put the 1 year old sensor from the $899 X-T30 into it and try to sell it as something special based on a paint job and a hidden screen? It’s possible but it is also possible that we see something new.

Of course, anything is possible in the future but to put a different sensor in the X-Pro line would mean increased costs and the X-Pro model being a low sales volume model - I don't see how they can justify it.

Not a different one, but the X-Pro3 could be the first to use the next sensor Fuji chooses to use.

From their preview - they are going make the X-Pro model out of Titanium - not exactly a cheap material to work with...that's probably going to push it to $2 K all by itself - forget about putting a new sensor in.

Every camera has a sensor so I am not sure why you think they can’t move on from the 26mp sensor. Manufacturers do it all the time.

I wondered why the X-Pro2 hasn't really had any sales on it and I think its because they produced so little of them as they were not expected big sales on that model

what makes you think it hasn’t sold?

. I think it will be the same for the X-Pro3 - its going to be a small production run or very small batches stretched out over a long period of time - they don't want to be sitting on a bunch of inventory like they are with the X-H1.

 

[Tomx72]

There is limited room in silicon-based sensor development, while the decade-long rumored Fuji-Panasonic organic wonder is nowhere to find. Just adding more MP won't really improve IQ just burdens the readout circuitry more. Especially in video, which seems to be important for Fuji.

The current 26MP sensor is probably as good as silicon could get, Fuji needs to look elsewhere: adding IBIS eg.

Titanium is a completely useless marketing candy but at least it comes with a nice fat price tag...

 

[michaeladawson]

Knowing Fuji’s modus operandi there’s no way they’d use that sensor only in the XT3 and XT30, all in the space of just months, and then switch to something else entirely.

Well, it will be a hard sell then because it is already in a $899 camera. That is my thinking. Let's be honest... the 26mp sensor is in no way an upgrade to the 24mp sensor. The X-Pro3 will be around for another 4 years with that 1 year old sensor? Seems like a bad idea.

So now you get right to the heart of the matter with the X-H1. Although the X-H1 was even worse. Released at the very end of the X-Trans III life cycle at a premium price and then overshadowed 6 months later by the X-T3 with new sensor/processor package.

You could take the opinion that Fuji won't be stupid enough to do that again. Or you could believe Fuji did it once and they can do it again.

With the X-Pro3 being announced in the next few weeks I'm going with the same innards as the X-T3.

 

[biza43]

Here in Portugal, on a reputable shop:

- Camera only 1,300 Euro, which is still launch price

- Camera and grip kit - 1,099 Euro

So, the discount is on the grip kit. Similar to what Olympus sometimes does on their OMD-1 cameras, offering the grip plus a 5 year warranty deal at discount.

As for the future of the line, only Fuji knows.

 

[Canadianguy]

Fujifilm has never differentiated their models based on sensors - it has always been - reuse the same sensor across the entire model range - then refresh with the next one.

That’s not what I said at all. All I said is that the X-Pro1 was the first to use the 16mp sensor and the X-Pro2 was the first to use the 24mp sensor. Now you are telling me that Fuji is going to put the 1 year old sensor from the $899 X-T30 into it and try to sell it as something special based on a paint job and a hidden screen? It’s possible but it is also possible that we see something new.

If you are telling us that Fujifilm changed their release sensor debut schedule - sure - the 26 MP sensor didn`t debut with the X-Pro line this round - it debuted in the X-T3 first. Then jumped to the X-T30 - which means it missed the X-Pro3.

I personally feel they have too many models using the same sensor but whatever, here is their current line up that needs sensors if they are keeping the same lineup. 2 of the 5 have the 26 MP sensor (X-T3 and X-T30), 3 others need sensors (X-Pro3, X-H2, X-E4)

1) X-Pro#

2) X-T#

3) X-H#

4) X-T##

5) X-E#

Concernedly possible that new sensor is in the works for the next 3 models and would help in them differentiating their models but not their historic pattern.

The X-A# and X-T### lines seem to reuse N-1 generation sensors to keep the price low...

Of course, anything is possible in the future but to put a different sensor in the X-Pro line would mean increased costs and the X-Pro model being a low sales volume model - I don't see how they can justify it.

Not a different one, but the X-Pro3 could be the first to use the next sensor Fuji chooses to use.

From their preview - they are going make the X-Pro model out of Titanium - not exactly a cheap material to work with...that's probably going to push it to $2 K all by itself - forget about putting a new sensor in.

Every camera has a sensor so I am not sure why you think they can’t move on from the 26mp sensor. Manufacturers do it all the time.

Sure - Sony does it all the time for their A7 line - every model gets their own unique sensor - but not so much for the APS-C line - they like to reuse them similar to Fujifilm. In fact, Sony hasn't moved off the 24 MP sensor to the 26 sensor for their latest APS-C models.

I wondered why the X-Pro2 hasn't really had any sales on it and I think its because they produced so little of them as they were not expected big sales on that model

what makes you think it hasn’t sold?

That wasn't my original question / point - my question why hasn't the X-Pro2 had any sales on it. My guess is that they didn't manufacture a lot of them to begin with. No excess stock to put on sale.

However to answer your question - from talking with my local dealer - they have told me it hasn't been a big seller for them. Of course, that's just local to me - what has your dealer told you? Are they having troubles keeping it in stock because people just buying them as soon as they come in?

. I think it will be the same for the X-Pro3 - its going to be a small production run or very small batches stretched out over a long period of time - they don't want to be sitting on a bunch of inventory like they are with the X-H1.

 

[photohp]

Here in Portugal, on a reputable shop:

- Camera only 1,300 Euro, which is still launch price

- Camera and grip kit - 1,099 Euro

So, the discount is on the grip kit. Similar to what Olympus sometimes does on their OMD-1 cameras, offering the grip plus a 5 year warranty deal at discount.

As for the future of the line, only Fuji knows.

 

[John Gellings]

Fujifilm has never differentiated their models based on sensors - it has always been - reuse the same sensor across the entire model range - then refresh with the next one.

That’s not what I said at all. All I said is that the X-Pro1 was the first to use the 16mp sensor and the X-Pro2 was the first to use the 24mp sensor. Now you are telling me that Fuji is going to put the 1 year old sensor from the $899 X-T30 into it and try to sell it as something special based on a paint job and a hidden screen? It’s possible but it is also possible that we see something new.

If you are telling us that Fujifilm changed their release sensor debut schedule - sure - the 26 MP sensor didn`t debut with the X-Pro line this round - it debuted in the X-T3 first. Then jumped to the X-T30 - which means it missed the X-Pro3.

because these models are updated more frequently than the X-Pro series.

I personally feel they have too many models using the same sensor but whatever, here is their current line up that needs sensors if they are keeping the same lineup. 2 of the 5 have the 26 MP sensor (X-T3 and X-T30),

Name one instance where a low end model got the latest sensor before other high end models? The X-T30 would be the first if the X-Pro3 has this same sensor. Well, the X-H1 was the first I guess but they banked on ibis as the big feature.

3 others need sensors (X-Pro3, X-H2, X-E4)

1) X-Pro#

2) X-T#

3) X-H#

4) X-T##

5) X-E#

Concernedly possible that new sensor is in the works for the next 3 models and would help in them differentiating their models but not their historic pattern.

Not sure which historic pattern you are referring to.

The X-A# and X-T### lines seem to reuse N-1 generation sensors to keep the price low...

Of course, anything is possible in the future but to put a different sensor in the X-Pro line would mean increased costs and the X-Pro model being a low sales volume model - I don't see how they can justify it.

Not a different one, but the X-Pro3 could be the first to use the next sensor Fuji chooses to use.

From their preview - they are going make the X-Pro model out of Titanium - not exactly a cheap material to work with...that's probably going to push it to $2 K all by itself - forget about putting a new sensor in.

Every camera has a sensor so I am not sure why you think they can’t move on from the 26mp sensor. Manufacturers do it all the time.

Sure - Sony does it all the time for their A7 line - every model gets their own unique sensor - but not so much for the APS-C line - they like to reuse them similar to Fujifilm. In fact, Sony hasn't moved off the 24 MP sensor to the 26 sensor for their latest APS-C models.

I wondered why the X-Pro2 hasn't really had any sales on it and I think its because they produced so little of them as they were not expected big sales on that model

what makes you think it hasn’t sold?

That wasn't my original question / point - my question why hasn't the X-Pro2 had any sales on it. My guess is that they didn't manufacture a lot of them to begin with. No excess stock to put on sale.

However to answer your question - from talking with my local dealer - they have told me it hasn't been a big seller for them. Of course, that's just local to me - what has your dealer told you? Are they having troubles keeping it in stock because people just buying them as soon as they come in?

It is 4 years old. Of course it sells slow now.

. I think it will be the same for the X-Pro3 - its going to be a small production run or very small batches stretched out over a long period of time - they don't want to be sitting on a bunch of inventory like they are with the X-H1.

 

[AdrianTWQ]

Every camera has a sensor so I am not sure why you think they can’t move on from the 26mp sensor. Manufacturers do it all the time.

Sure - Sony does it all the time for their A7 line - every model gets their own unique sensor - but not so much for the APS-C line - they like to reuse them similar to Fujifilm. In fact, Sony hasn't moved off the 24 MP sensor to the 26 sensor for their latest APS-C models.

Because Sony made their own sensors. The reason why Sony stayed with 24Mp for APS-C is most likely because that's not their focus, their FF Line and 1" Compacts are their focus.

 

[AdrianTWQ]

There is limited room in silicon-based sensor development, while the decade-long rumored Fuji-Panasonic organic wonder is nowhere to find. Just adding more MP won't really improve IQ just burdens the readout circuitry more. Especially in video, which seems to be important for Fuji.

One way that can be done is move from RGB to CMYW, that would about doubles the light the sensor absorbs, and maybe bring back EXR mode to trade resolution for less noise or higher DR.

The current 26MP sensor is probably as good as silicon could get, Fuji needs to look elsewhere: adding IBIS eg.

They can bring back EXR Mode. And maybe have WR+IBIS (but just 2EV instead of 5.5) on something mid range.

 

[Truman Prevatt]

how much inventory do they have to clear in Japan and what does it say about the future of the X-H line?

Who knows? It could be that they know what other companies are working on or that if they let this go cheap, they get more users hooked.

I read the rumours article above when the first clear out sale started but Fujifilm's actions is just really odd if an X-H replacement is not coming in 2019 and maybe not even 2020...

It is odd, but they have many cameras and with the X-Pro3, we start a brand new revamp cycle for all models.

Not sure why you’d think the X-Pro3 will start “a brand new revamp cycle”.

Traditionally, it does. In the past the X-Pro got the new sensor first.

I’d bet good money it’s the exact same sensor and processor from the XT3 simply in new clothes.

Maybe...we will see. Fuji hasn't said anything yet.

The silence on the sensor has been deafening. Not even much of any reliability on any of the rumor sites. About the only thing we know is the cosmetics of the camera along with the statements from Fuji about improvements in the OVF and EVF. Fuji has been very quite and they have kept the lid on the information pretty well.

Exactly... they either will have a new sensor or they are afraid to say they are using the same.

Knowing Fuji’s modus operandi there’s no way they’d use that sensor only in the XT3 and XT30, all in the space of just months, and then switch to something else entirely.

Well, it will be a hard sell then because it is already in a $899 camera. That is my thinking. Let's be honest... the 26mp sensor is in no way an upgrade to the 24mp sensor. The X-Pro3 will be around for another 4 years with that 1 year old sensor? Seems like a bad idea.

In reality the sensor in the T3 could be a temporary set that was inserted in because of a faster read out which would make it better for video and allow for more sophisticated AF. One of the big sellers to some was the expanded video in the T3.

The 24 MP X-trans was a nice step up from the 16 but the 26 is increment at most compared to the 24 and in some respect faster read time was traded off for more noise. So I would call it a wash.

Exactly...

I also expect given the maturity of Sony's BSI manufacturing process that the XT3 sensor did not have a large NRE associated with it.

We’ve probably got at least another year of new X-Trans IV models, including the X-Pro3, X100x(?), XE4, perhaps an XH2 and who knows what else.

And we could see a new sensor for all of them. The X-T3 gets updated more frequently.

Quite true - especially if the T3 sensor was an interim step. Or we might see Fuji in a paradigm shift where they support a video centric sensor and a stills centric sensor similar to Sony.

The XT3 started the current cycle and it’ll be that model that benefits the most from firmware updates over time as each new model is released with another standout feature that can be backported (the X-Pro2 occupied this fortuitous position in the last third-gen cycle).

We will see. As I said, it'll be a tough sell to put a year old sensor... one that is used already in a lower end $899 camera ... into the X-Pro3 and sell it for $2000. It is clear that the X-Pro3 is special to Fuji.

Clearly I suspect the Pro3 will demand a higher price than the T30 even with the same basic sensor. However, it will not support a premium price that Fuji will charge for it with the same sensor. If the Pro3 contains a new truly upgraded sensor to the current Pro2 I will be willing to drop 2 K for it. If not - than I will wait around until the price falls (and it will) to see if I take the plunge.

Exactly... again.

John,

Interestingly enough I just noticed this

Loading…

www.dpreview.com

I Canon has one I would be very surprised if Sony does not have one at least as high quality. If Fuji wants to be king of APSC and charge fairly high prices for APSC cameras it better up their game over the 24/26 MP sensors in its current cameras.

Maybe that is why Fuji has been so quite about the innards of the Pro3 and the Pro3 just like the Pro1 and Pro2 will kick off a new generation of Fuji cameras.

We can only hope but if not it looks like Fuji not be comparing itself with FF in the future but playing catch up with APSC.

 

[DerKaiser]

how much inventory do they have to clear in Japan and what does it say about the future of the X-H line?

Who knows? It could be that they know what other companies are working on or that if they let this go cheap, they get more users hooked.

I read the rumours article above when the first clear out sale started but Fujifilm's actions is just really odd if an X-H replacement is not coming in 2019 and maybe not even 2020...

It is odd, but they have many cameras and with the X-Pro3, we start a brand new revamp cycle for all models.

Not sure why you’d think the X-Pro3 will start “a brand new revamp cycle”.

Traditionally, it does. In the past the X-Pro got the new sensor first.

I’d bet good money it’s the exact same sensor and processor from the XT3 simply in new clothes.

Maybe...we will see. Fuji hasn't said anything yet.

The silence on the sensor has been deafening. Not even much of any reliability on any of the rumor sites. About the only thing we know is the cosmetics of the camera along with the statements from Fuji about improvements in the OVF and EVF. Fuji has been very quite and they have kept the lid on the information pretty well.

Exactly... they either will have a new sensor or they are afraid to say they are using the same.

Knowing Fuji’s modus operandi there’s no way they’d use that sensor only in the XT3 and XT30, all in the space of just months, and then switch to something else entirely.

Well, it will be a hard sell then because it is already in a $899 camera. That is my thinking. Let's be honest... the 26mp sensor is in no way an upgrade to the 24mp sensor. The X-Pro3 will be around for another 4 years with that 1 year old sensor? Seems like a bad idea.

In reality the sensor in the T3 could be a temporary set that was inserted in because of a faster read out which would make it better for video and allow for more sophisticated AF. One of the big sellers to some was the expanded video in the T3.

The 24 MP X-trans was a nice step up from the 16 but the 26 is increment at most compared to the 24 and in some respect faster read time was traded off for more noise. So I would call it a wash.

Exactly...

I also expect given the maturity of Sony's BSI manufacturing process that the XT3 sensor did not have a large NRE associated with it.

We’ve probably got at least another year of new X-Trans IV models, including the X-Pro3, X100x(?), XE4, perhaps an XH2 and who knows what else.

And we could see a new sensor for all of them. The X-T3 gets updated more frequently.

Quite true - especially if the T3 sensor was an interim step. Or we might see Fuji in a paradigm shift where they support a video centric sensor and a stills centric sensor similar to Sony.

The XT3 started the current cycle and it’ll be that model that benefits the most from firmware updates over time as each new model is released with another standout feature that can be backported (the X-Pro2 occupied this fortuitous position in the last third-gen cycle).

We will see. As I said, it'll be a tough sell to put a year old sensor... one that is used already in a lower end $899 camera ... into the X-Pro3 and sell it for $2000. It is clear that the X-Pro3 is special to Fuji.

Clearly I suspect the Pro3 will demand a higher price than the T30 even with the same basic sensor. However, it will not support a premium price that Fuji will charge for it with the same sensor. If the Pro3 contains a new truly upgraded sensor to the current Pro2 I will be willing to drop 2 K for it. If not - than I will wait around until the price falls (and it will) to see if I take the plunge.

Exactly... again.

John,

Interestingly enough I just noticed this

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/8673278060/canon-s-32mp-chip-marks-the-end-of-the-24mp-aps-c-era

I Canon has one I would be very surprised if Sony does not have one at least as high quality. If Fuji wants to be king of APSC and charge fairly high prices for APSC cameras it better up their game over the 24/26 MP sensors in its current cameras.

Maybe that is why Fuji has been so quite about the innards of the Pro3 and the Pro3 just like the Pro1 and Pro2 will kick off a new generation of Fuji cameras.

We can only hope but if not it looks like Fuji not be comparing itself with FF in the future but playing catch up with APSC.

26 vs 32 Mp is an 11.5% increase in linear resolution. Hardly seems meaningful.

 

[Threaded]

Fujifilm has never differentiated their models based on sensors - it has always been - reuse the same sensor across the entire model range - then refresh with the next one.

That’s not what I said at all. All I said is that the X-Pro1 was the first to use the 16mp sensor and the X-Pro2 was the first to use the 24mp sensor. Now you are telling me that Fuji is going to put the 1 year old sensor from the $899 X-T30 into it and try to sell it as something special based on a paint job and a hidden screen? It’s possible but it is also possible that we see something new.

If you are telling us that Fujifilm changed their release sensor debut schedule - sure - the 26 MP sensor didn`t debut with the X-Pro line this round - it debuted in the X-T3 first. Then jumped to the X-T30 - which means it missed the X-Pro3.

because these models are updated more frequently than the X-Pro series.

So what about the XE line or the X100 - they’ve been updated just as frequently as the XT’s in the past and used each new sensor in turn - why are they now skipping a generation all of a sudden?

I personally feel they have too many models using the same sensor but whatever, here is their current line up that needs sensors if they are keeping the same lineup. 2 of the 5 have the 26 MP sensor (X-T3 and X-T30),

Name one instance where a low end model got the latest sensor before other high end models? The X-T30 would be the first if the X-Pro3 has this same sensor. Well, the X-H1 was the first I guess but they banked on ibis as the big feature.

You’ve answered your own question, the XH1 was Fuji’s most expensive new flagship model ever when launched (pricier than the X-Pro2 had ever been), and it had already waited for both the XT20 and XE3 to launch with the same sensor.

How about the XT1 - very much a high end flagship model when launched, and it used the same sensor and processor from the XE2 about a year earlier. Unlike the XH1 it was a huge success despite being almost entirely the exact same camera in a different package. How do you discount that?

3 others need sensors (X-Pro3, X-H2, X-E4)

1) X-Pro#

2) X-T#

3) X-H#

4) X-T##

5) X-E#

Concernedly possible that new sensor is in the works for the next 3 models and would help in them differentiating their models but not their historic pattern.

Not sure which historic pattern you are referring to.

The problem you have is you’re putting all of your stock in just one rather limited “historic pattern” - namely that in the X-Pro line’s *one* previous update, it got a new sensor.

The broader pattern you’re ignoring is that in each new sensor/processor generation, *every* model uses the same gear. Admittedly the first generation (heavily criticised at the time for its slow processor and contrast only AF) was unsurprisingly short lived, but after that we had X-Trans II in literally every model line bar the X-Pro (which was likely heavily overstocked at the time), then we had X-Trans III in literally everything, now we have X-Trans IV in.. just two models, one high and one low end? You really think so?

 

[Truman Prevatt]

how much inventory do they have to clear in Japan and what does it say about the future of the X-H line?

Who knows? It could be that they know what other companies are working on or that if they let this go cheap, they get more users hooked.

I read the rumours article above when the first clear out sale started but Fujifilm's actions is just really odd if an X-H replacement is not coming in 2019 and maybe not even 2020...

It is odd, but they have many cameras and with the X-Pro3, we start a brand new revamp cycle for all models.

Not sure why you’d think the X-Pro3 will start “a brand new revamp cycle”.

Traditionally, it does. In the past the X-Pro got the new sensor first.

I’d bet good money it’s the exact same sensor and processor from the XT3 simply in new clothes.

Maybe...we will see. Fuji hasn't said anything yet.

The silence on the sensor has been deafening. Not even much of any reliability on any of the rumor sites. About the only thing we know is the cosmetics of the camera along with the statements from Fuji about improvements in the OVF and EVF. Fuji has been very quite and they have kept the lid on the information pretty well.

Exactly... they either will have a new sensor or they are afraid to say they are using the same.

Knowing Fuji’s modus operandi there’s no way they’d use that sensor only in the XT3 and XT30, all in the space of just months, and then switch to something else entirely.

Well, it will be a hard sell then because it is already in a $899 camera. That is my thinking. Let's be honest... the 26mp sensor is in no way an upgrade to the 24mp sensor. The X-Pro3 will be around for another 4 years with that 1 year old sensor? Seems like a bad idea.

In reality the sensor in the T3 could be a temporary set that was inserted in because of a faster read out which would make it better for video and allow for more sophisticated AF. One of the big sellers to some was the expanded video in the T3.

The 24 MP X-trans was a nice step up from the 16 but the 26 is increment at most compared to the 24 and in some respect faster read time was traded off for more noise. So I would call it a wash.

Exactly...

I also expect given the maturity of Sony's BSI manufacturing process that the XT3 sensor did not have a large NRE associated with it.

We’ve probably got at least another year of new X-Trans IV models, including the X-Pro3, X100x(?), XE4, perhaps an XH2 and who knows what else.

And we could see a new sensor for all of them. The X-T3 gets updated more frequently.

Quite true - especially if the T3 sensor was an interim step. Or we might see Fuji in a paradigm shift where they support a video centric sensor and a stills centric sensor similar to Sony.

The XT3 started the current cycle and it’ll be that model that benefits the most from firmware updates over time as each new model is released with another standout feature that can be backported (the X-Pro2 occupied this fortuitous position in the last third-gen cycle).

We will see. As I said, it'll be a tough sell to put a year old sensor... one that is used already in a lower end $899 camera ... into the X-Pro3 and sell it for $2000. It is clear that the X-Pro3 is special to Fuji.

Clearly I suspect the Pro3 will demand a higher price than the T30 even with the same basic sensor. However, it will not support a premium price that Fuji will charge for it with the same sensor. If the Pro3 contains a new truly upgraded sensor to the current Pro2 I will be willing to drop 2 K for it. If not - than I will wait around until the price falls (and it will) to see if I take the plunge.

Exactly... again.

John,

Interestingly enough I just noticed this

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/8673278060/canon-s-32mp-chip-marks-the-end-of-the-24mp-aps-c-era

I Canon has one I would be very surprised if Sony does not have one at least as high quality. If Fuji wants to be king of APSC and charge fairly high prices for APSC cameras it better up their game over the 24/26 MP sensors in its current cameras.

Maybe that is why Fuji has been so quite about the innards of the Pro3 and the Pro3 just like the Pro1 and Pro2 will kick off a new generation of Fuji cameras.

We can only hope but if not it looks like Fuji not be comparing itself with FF in the future but playing catch up with APSC.

26 vs 32 Mp is an 11.5% increase in linear resolution. Hardly seems meaningful.

much more meaningful than the 24 to 26 now isn't it?

The MP race is far from over and newer semiconductor design and process technologies are resulting in better performance of smaller pixels. I think Canon has shown then - at least they have according to the DPR report.

So Fuji to claim king of the roost in APSC better be catching up and soon.

 

[DerKaiser]

26 vs 32 Mp is an 11.5% increase in linear resolution. Hardly seems meaningful.

much more meaningful than the 24 to 26 now isn't it?

Never claimed otherwise.

 

[John Gellings]

John,

Interestingly enough I just noticed this

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/8673278060/canon-s-32mp-chip-marks-the-end-of-the-24mp-aps-c-era

Yes, I have seen that. I`m sure Sony is working on something, BUT... they didn`t put it in the recent a6600. So, I`m not sure.

Canon has one I would be very surprised if Sony does not have one at least as high quality.

If there is one thing that we know, is that more MPs always come.

If Fuji wants to be king of APSC and charge fairly high prices for APSC cameras it better up their game over the 24/26 MP sensors in its current cameras.

Exactly...

Maybe that is why Fuji has been so quite about the innards of the Pro3 and the Pro3 just like the Pro1 and Pro2 will kick off a new generation of Fuji cameras.

That is my belief... but everyone tends to disagree.

We can only hope but if not it looks like Fuji not be comparing itself with FF in the future but playing catch up with APSC.

 

[timwit]

The last two inventory clear out sales for X-H1 really has me confused.

If there isn't a replacement coming soon - why the need to do such deep discounting of the X-H1 product.

It was a flop, so Fuji is cutting their losses.

This was from the September sale.

https://www.fujirumors.com/mega-fujifilm-x-h1-rebate-ends-today-and-a-fujifilm-x-h2-rumor-recap/

Two weeks after the last sale ended with the products just coming in from Japan to fulfill orders from the first sale - they start up another sale with more discounted lens bundles - how much inventory do they have to clear in Japan and what does it say about the future of the X-H line?

Discount after discount on the X-H1 most likely mean they are getting rid of the X-H line, at least in my opinion.

I read the rumours article above when the first clear out sale started but Fujifilm's actions is just really odd if an X-H replacement is not coming in 2019 and maybe not even 2020...

Fujfilm's decision making has been a hit and miss lately.

Tim C.

 

[John Gellings]

Fujifilm has never differentiated their models based on sensors - it has always been - reuse the same sensor across the entire model range - then refresh with the next one.

That’s not what I said at all. All I said is that the X-Pro1 was the first to use the 16mp sensor and the X-Pro2 was the first to use the 24mp sensor. Now you are telling me that Fuji is going to put the 1 year old sensor from the $899 X-T30 into it and try to sell it as something special based on a paint job and a hidden screen? It’s possible but it is also possible that we see something new.

If you are telling us that Fujifilm changed their release sensor debut schedule - sure - the 26 MP sensor didn`t debut with the X-Pro line this round - it debuted in the X-T3 first. Then jumped to the X-T30 - which means it missed the X-Pro3.

because these models are updated more frequently than the X-Pro series.

So what about the XE line or the X100 - they’ve been updated just as frequently as the XT’s in the past and used each new sensor in turn - why are they now skipping a generation all of a sudden?

The X100 series received the 16mp and 24mp sensor after the X-Pro series. The X-E series...the same. I don`t believe there were 2 totally different 16mp sensors like you seem to think. I think it was the same sensor with a different processor.

I personally feel they have too many models using the same sensor but whatever, here is their current line up that needs sensors if they are keeping the same lineup. 2 of the 5 have the 26 MP sensor (X-T3 and X-T30),

Name one instance where a low end model got the latest sensor before other high end models? The X-T30 would be the first if the X-Pro3 has this same sensor. Well, the X-H1 was the first I guess but they banked on ibis as the big feature.

You’ve answered your own question, the XH1 was Fuji’s most expensive new flagship model ever when launched (pricier than the X-Pro2 had ever been), and it had already waited for both the XT20 and XE3 to launch with the same sensor.

How about the XT1 - very much a high end flagship model when launched, and it used the same sensor and processor from the XE2 about a year earlier. Unlike the XH1 it was a huge success despite being almost entirely the exact same camera in a different package. How do you discount that?

3 others need sensors (X-Pro3, X-H2, X-E4)

1) X-Pro#

2) X-T#

3) X-H#

4) X-T##

5) X-E#

Concernedly possible that new sensor is in the works for the next 3 models and would help in them differentiating their models but not their historic pattern.

Not sure which historic pattern you are referring to.

The problem you have is you’re putting all of your stock in just one rather limited “historic pattern” - namely that in the X-Pro line’s *one* previous update, it got a new sensor.

It`s not a problem. It´s a fact. Each X-Pro model has been released with a major sensor upgrade. That cannot be disputed.

The broader pattern you’re ignoring is that in each new sensor/processor generation, *every* model uses the same gear.

When did I ignore that? I simply am trying to say that a sensor is released in the high end cameras first and then it trickles down to the low end. The X-H1 is the only exception. Now, you are trying to say that the 26mp sensor will be used in a high end model 6-8 months after a low end model. This is not the norm in the camera world or for Fuji. Especially when the X-Pro3 will be very expensive for APSC.

Admittedly the first generation (heavily criticised at the time for its slow processor and contrast only AF) was unsurprisingly short lived, but after that we had X-Trans II in literally every model line bar the X-Pro (which was likely heavily overstocked at the time), then we had X-Trans III in literally everything, now we have X-Trans IV in.. just two models, one high and one low end? You really think so?

Huh? We had a 16mp sensor, a 24mp sensor, and a 26mp sensor... you can believe the X-Trans II crap, but effectively there wasn`t a huge difference there.

I still believe that it will be a hard sell to put this current 26mp sensor in the X-Pro3. I understand you think I am wrong. However, the X-Pro series is on a 4 year update cycle and that is why I believe they need to do something different. Well, more than just a paint job and a gimmick screen.

 

[Tomx72]

much more meaningful than the 24 to 26 now isn't it?

The MP race is far from over and newer semiconductor design and process technologies are resulting in better performance of smaller pixels. I think Canon has shown then - at least they have according to the DPR report.

So Fuji to claim king of the roost in APSC better be catching up and soon.

Allright, let's cut the half-page long quote madness...

The MP war is good for boosting your rolling shutter and magnifying your lens faults. A 2014 model A7S is just 12MP on a full frame(!) but produces so crisp and clear IQ that no APSC does today, especially not beyond ISO3200. Lots of pixels are also common source of lossy video recording practices, i.e. line skipping: perfect example here is the Moiré and noise laden FF video from the a7rII. Right, they tried to mitigate the issue with an oversampling mode: ended up trading Moiré and noise to much more rolling shutter.