717 being discontinued/ replaced?

[Ulysses]

By history, watching how the price moves on the site is better than watching the prices at retailer sites. Retailer prices go up and go down based on their stock. Sony prices move primarily based on production of current and new products.

When the are no longer producing or have any more shipping products (F707 was one example), then the device disappears from their site.

Besides, you get to knew nearly three or four months before shipping date when Sony is about to release a new version. The price changes, by history, approximately one month before the first announcements begin to show up.

We've got a while yet to go before we see any new F-series camera.

I don't think watching SOny price is a good way.
Remember F707, when 717 came out, F707 on SOny site is just
disapear , so
watch F717 on SOny site is not certain that F909 will not come out
next week.

--

Ulysses

 

[Ulysses]

This is what I was thinking too, Loren. However Ulysses may be
correct that my "market survey" consisting of just one individual
(now two) may not be that representative... Anyway I'm very happy
that I purchased the 717 when i did (i.e. no regrets).

How true that is!

A user can be happy to have it at $999 (after all, the F717 is more camera than the F707 but for the same price!). And a user who gets it at $700 can be even happier!

Well, as happy as you're gonna get after spending that kind of cash, anyway.

--

Ulysses

 

[Gerrit Pang]

We need another break like when some guy stumbled on a Sony meeting and touched the f707. I think it was in Borneo or somewhere in Southeast Asia.

This is what I was thinking too, Loren. However Ulysses may be
correct that my "market survey" consisting of just one individual
(now two) may not be that representative... Anyway I'm very happy
that I purchased the 717 when i did (i.e. no regrets).

How true that is!

A user can be happy to have it at $999 (after all, the F717 is more
camera than the F707 but for the same price!). And a user who gets
it at $700 can be even happier!

Well, as happy as you're gonna get after spending that kind of
cash, anyway.

--

Ulysses

 

[Troy]

OK the 10D sounds cheap at $1500. But that does not includes lenses!

I just checked out the prices for lenses at B&H.

To get the same zoom range as the sony you need 2 separate zooms. Which you could get as cheap as $350 a peice or so. BUT in order to get a similar level of bright glass (2.8 for the D10 vs. 2.0-2.4 for sony) you pay around $1000-1500 per lens.

If dSLR makers start building smaller lenses for digital cameras, package prices will then start to compete with all-in-ones. But until then you are paying huge prices for huge glass, the benefits of which are just cropped by the sensor!

Troy

 

[Ulysses]

Heheheh... the cost of class does make the heart grow cold, doesn't it?

OK the 10D sounds cheap at $1500. But that does not includes lenses!

I just checked out the prices for lenses at B&H.
To get the same zoom range as the sony you need 2 separate zooms.
Which you could get as cheap as $350 a peice or so. BUT in order to
get a similar level of bright glass (2.8 for the D10 vs. 2.0-2.4
for sony) you pay around $1000-1500 per lens.

If dSLR makers start building smaller lenses for digital cameras,
package prices will then start to compete with all-in-ones. But
until then you are paying huge prices for huge glass, the benefits
of which are just cropped by the sensor!

Troy

--

Ulysses

 

[Shutter.]

The 10D has a 1.5 magnifier, so a 70-200 zoom lens far exceeds the Sony's zoom. In fact, they'd be much more than the Sony. Also, are you looking at only the IS L lenses? Those are not the only ones that are equal to the Zeiss. Also, the speed is also compensated by the fact that you can use higher ISO's on the DSLR's, minimizing the requirement of having a super fast lens.

Regardless, it's funny to even have this conversation. There are so many reasons why the price of the two cameras are not, and should not, be the same. A comparison isn't even valid, IMO.

If you need what a DSLR offers, then it becomes about more than price. If you don't, then it's only about price. So, basically, if people compare the prices between the two when making their decisions, then they don't need a DSLR, only want one.

Jim

OK the 10D sounds cheap at $1500. But that does not includes lenses!

I just checked out the prices for lenses at B&H.
To get the same zoom range as the sony you need 2 separate zooms.
Which you could get as cheap as $350 a peice or so. BUT in order to
get a similar level of bright glass (2.8 for the D10 vs. 2.0-2.4
for sony) you pay around $1000-1500 per lens.

If dSLR makers start building smaller lenses for digital cameras,
package prices will then start to compete with all-in-ones. But
until then you are paying huge prices for huge glass, the benefits
of which are just cropped by the sensor!

Troy

--
Jim Fuglestad

Skill in photography is acquired by practice and not by purchase. -Percy W. Harris
Our existence is determined by the truths we tell.
Why simply live and let live? Live and help live.
http://www.pbase.com/jfuglestad/galleries

 

[Steve Cavigliano]

Uh Jim,

Are you trying to convince us, or yourself?.....LOL J/K I said just about the same thing in the "Next 717" thread. Great minds (and people with loads of kids to support) think alike ;-)

Steve

Regardless, it's funny to even have this conversation. There are
so many reasons why the price of the two cameras are not, and
should not, be the same. A comparison isn't even valid, IMO.

If you need what a DSLR offers, then it becomes about more than
price. If you don't, then it's only about price. So, basically,
if people compare the prices between the two when making their
decisions, then they don't need a DSLR, only want one.

Jim

OK the 10D sounds cheap at $1500. But that does not includes lenses!

I just checked out the prices for lenses at B&H.
To get the same zoom range as the sony you need 2 separate zooms.
Which you could get as cheap as $350 a peice or so. BUT in order to
get a similar level of bright glass (2.8 for the D10 vs. 2.0-2.4
for sony) you pay around $1000-1500 per lens.

If dSLR makers start building smaller lenses for digital cameras,
package prices will then start to compete with all-in-ones. But
until then you are paying huge prices for huge glass, the benefits
of which are just cropped by the sensor!

Troy

--
Jim Fuglestad
Skill in photography is acquired by practice and not by purchase.
-Percy W. Harris
Our existence is determined by the truths we tell.
Why simply live and let live? Live and help live.
http://www.pbase.com/jfuglestad/galleries

--
http://www.pbase.com/slo2k

'If one really wishes to be master of an art, technical knowledge of it is not enough. One has to transcend technique so that the art becomes an 'artless art' growing out of the Unconscious.'

 

[Ulysses]

While I don't know if I'd go as far as to say that price doesn't matter (even though I'm the guy who usually says to 'buy what you need and worry about the price later'), you make a good point about the qualititive differences between a consumer/prosumer camera and the dSLR. So one needs to assign a proportionately high qualitative price to the hardware.

While camera prices for the bodies may drop, the lenses for SLR/dSLR stay pretty much the same.

Heheh... but they're still generally pretty expensive, with some lenses costing way more than the cameras that we've bought (so far).

If you need what a DSLR offers, then it becomes about more than
price. If you don't, then it's only about price. So, basically,
if people compare the prices between the two when making their
decisions, then they don't need a DSLR, only want one.

--

Ulysses

 

[Howdy]

OK the 10D sounds cheap at $1500. But that does not includes lenses!

You're absolutely right, on the first go-round, you have to spend some extra bucks for a lens on a SLR. But that is true whether you're buying a digital or film SLR. On the second go-round, you're only spending money for the body. For everybody who already owns glass (for a film-body), they won't need to buy it again for the dSLR. I expect that there is a fairly large market of film SLR owners who have yet to buy a digital body, but who already have $$$ invested in glass. For them, spending $1500 leverages the investment in glass they have already made.

And while the tech of glass is has continue to advance at a nice pace, it is far out-paced by the tech of sensors, algorithms, etc, contained in a digital camera body. The ability to replace just the body, and not the glass, is an advantage for a dSLR not enjoyed by prosumer digital cameras.

Howdy

 

[CR Brune]

The $400 28-135 IS canon lens with multiplier/crop of 1.6 works out to 45-216 which is comparable to the f717 (granted a little weak on the short end). I don't see the need to have the same f-number, the canon+this lens already gives mores DOF, and lower noise of the canon helps in this comparison too. I happen to own this lens for my 35mm film canon. At > $2000 the dSLR was to much for me, at $1500 it makes me think... Still I'm glad I got the sony, I like the size and convenience and it's not like I NEED anything better. From what I can see a dSLR is an open wound in pocketbook, one which never stops oozing...

OK the 10D sounds cheap at $1500. But that does not includes lenses!

I just checked out the prices for lenses at B&H.
To get the same zoom range as the sony you need 2 separate zooms.
Which you could get as cheap as $350 a peice or so. BUT in order to
get a similar level of bright glass (2.8 for the D10 vs. 2.0-2.4
for sony) you pay around $1000-1500 per lens.

If dSLR makers start building smaller lenses for digital cameras,
package prices will then start to compete with all-in-ones. But
until then you are paying huge prices for huge glass, the benefits
of which are just cropped by the sensor!

Troy

 

[GBear]

I went into my local camera shop today, and they had the 717 on
closeout for $898.88. Anyone, hear of a replacement for it?

No info but I suspect the Canon 10D price of $1500/body is going to put a lot of pressure on high end digicams...

 

[GBear]

Highly unlikely for a couple of reasons:
1) The 10D isn't even out yet. It can't move the price of ANY
camera other than some other dSLR that also isn't out yet.

EXCEPT for me - I was ready to buy a 717 but waited to see PMA results - I expected to spend $900 for the 717 and $250 for the telephoto - say $1200 with shipping. But I have some Canon lenses left over from 35mm and the $1500 10D stopped my 717 purchase, obviously! I would rather wait 4 months for that quality chip and camera if I have to. So in my case the 10D killed a 717 purchase despite not being available. I can live with my Canon Pro90 IS another 4 months...

 

[TylerDCA]

I went into my local camera shop today, and they had the 717 on
closeout for $898.88. Anyone, hear of a replacement for it?

Taylor

I am good friends with the sony rep and he said that it will be another month.. the big news is the 1 gig memory card that is coming out in about a month
--
See Live Concert Photos at:
http://www.JUNKEDCAMERA.com

 

[GBear]

If you need what a DSLR offers, then it becomes about more than
price. If you don't, then it's only about price. So, basically,
if people compare the prices between the two when making their
decisions, then they don't need a DSLR, only want one.

EXCEPT in my case. In many ways I would prefer the 717 - I love the pivoting body, the active LCD screen, and the all-in-one lens (except I would need the telephoto availability)- and most of all the SILENCE - I do a lot of informal people pix and people simply ignore my Pro90 IS because it is unimpressive, soundless, and you can neither see nor hear it zoom - even tho they are aware of it they ignore it. And using the LCD so you dont look at them is even better. The 717 has these features PLUS 5 mpx. When I used a Canon 35mm with the 300 mm IS lens and hood it looked like a cannon and went "whack, clack, whirr" and people paid a LOT of attention to it.

BUT - I love IS which the 717 does NOT have.

AND - I have Canon stabilized lenses from 28 mm up to 300 mm left from 35mm (this would be 45mm to 480 mm on the 10D)

AND - comparison of images off the web of the 10D and the 717 are WAY in favor of the 10D - despite the 717 being very good for what it is - a "prosumer" chip.

All in all I will just take my chances with the sound of the 10D, I am afraid.

 

[Ulysses]

Ahhh, with a camera like the Pro90 IS, you can afford to wait for a while.

If only Canon had come out with a ProX follow-up but with a feature set similar to the G3... Wow! That would have been one nice camera.

I'm sure you'll enjoy the 10D even more so.

EXCEPT for me - I was ready to buy a 717 but waited to see PMA
results - I expected to spend $900 for the 717 and $250 for the
telephoto - say $1200 with shipping. But I have some Canon lenses
left over from 35mm and the $1500 10D stopped my 717 purchase,
obviously! I would rather wait 4 months for that quality chip and
camera if I have to. So in my case the 10D killed a 717 purchase
despite not being available. I can live with my Canon Pro90 IS
another 4 months...

--

Ulysses

 

[Ulysses]

AND - comparison of images off the web of the 10D and the 717 are
WAY in favor of the 10D - despite the 717 being very good for what
it is - a "prosumer" chip.

No need to even compare, then.

And why do so? The two are such different animals. If I were able, I'd have them both.

Matter of fact, once I do move on to a dSLR, I'll likely still maintain a consumer/prosumer model as part of the arsenal.

--

Ulysses

 

[Ulysses]

For certain high-end users who previously couldn't or wouldn't afford a dSLR. However, those users are far in the minority in comparison to the vast numbers of consumer/prosumer type users.

I went into my local camera shop today, and they had the 717 on
closeout for $898.88. Anyone, hear of a replacement for it?

No info but I suspect the Canon 10D price of $1500/body is going to
put a lot of pressure on high end digicams...

--

Ulysses

 

[Dennis22293]

I would guess that if Sony ever did build a dSLR, it would be
much more expensive than a Canon.

But you and I (and everyone along with their grandmothers) know
that Sony will never produce a dSLR. They'll likely continue along
the trend of the F-series --- or some other series --- with the
production of a true multi-functional cyber-camera. It's what Sony
does best.

Prices will drop, for sure, as chips and RAM become less expensive.

Agree

I feel the level of photography
for me has reached the limit I'm able to get with my 707. Time to
look at and think about where I want to go from here on.

Yeah, we've got time. Barring some specialized need, such as
professional work, many of us are doing well with the prosumer
grade cameras. There is fun factor involved, which also contributes
to the interest in dSLR, but right now there is no real "need" to
move on.

Agree, until my next vacation plans come into focus. Then I will really feel the want, and be it want more than need.

I agree on your mark in about 2 years, but many won't wait till
then. I think it's more of how many people are ready to graduate
up to dSLR in terms of image quality instead of a camera that is
within $500 to $700 for body less lens. Just my 2 cents.

Look at it in this way. A camera like the F717 sells in the 10's of
thousands of units. Of these users, those likely to move over into
the dSLR camp probably number in the hundreds to a couple thousand.
While they're doing that, the Sony prosumer market grows even
further because new users of beginner level cameras (these are the
folks buying $200-300 cameras today) are "discovering" the benefits
of a more enabled prosumer.

The dSLR will never outstrip the demand for a camera like the
prosumer level. Look at he film market as a model. Despite SLR
having been available for many, many more years, it's still the
low-end to mid-range that far outstrips the growth in SLR. Digital
will follow a similar pattern.

True, but wouldn't it really be fun to know the real figures of units sold from Canon, Nikon, and all the others including Sigma.

Now that Foveon has found somebody to market their chip instead of just Sigma, I look to see more Foveon chipped dSLR's in a couple years. It may be worth the wait of 2 years.

Dennis

 

[Dennis22293]

Regardless of how low the cost of dslr bodies become , the price of
the appropriate lens (s) to cover a popular zoom range is what will
always keep them in another cost bracket ( unattractive to many)
and will always insure a plentiful market for 717 type cameras.
Money is THE major consideration for most non pros.
John

Hey John,

At least until that 7x7 user thinks he needs one of those wide angle or telephoto lens that Sony offers. Then you're right back to the looking at prices of some half decent lenses for the dSLR. Which brings me to think that if and when I were to get a dSLR, I'd sell off my extra lenses from my 707.

Dennis

 

[Dennis22293]

I went into my local camera shop today, and they had the 717 on
closeout for $898.88. Anyone, hear of a replacement for it?

Taylor

I am good friends with the sony rep and he said that it will be
another month.. the big news is the 1 gig memory card that is
coming out in about a month

Another month? Are you referring to the 1 gig MS Pro? Or are you saying a new camera is coming that we haven't heard about?

Dennis