Chasing rainbows? (The hunt for the elusive perfect paper)

[Jake_P]

Hi,

I've been scouring the internet and sampling various test paper packs in the quest for a paper that can give good blacks and good colour saturation whilst having minimal gloss.

I know this is fundamentally the compromise in that matte papers will always offer 'flatter' images but there is such a dizzying array of options out there and I've become slightly obsessed with the hunt.

I've always printed onto semi gloss which suits my graphic art very well and really brings out all the textures I use in the Photoshop composites that I create beautifully but I've always felt the paper just feels for want of a better word 'cheap'

So I guess then for what I'm looking for in terms of colour saturation, black contrast and overall quality in the hand, a Baryta paper is my only choice?

I've seen a couple of matte type Baryta papers online, and from memory I think one was a Fotospeed (name eludes me at the moment) but after finding a review, they found the blacks to be quite grey which didn't surprise me.

So to summarise, does a paper exist that can give a ball park set of performance of a semi gloss/lustre etc in a semi matte option? I'm pretty sure it doesn't now after extensive research but would love to hear any thoughts/experiences you have had personally.

Thanks so much in advance..

 

[jrkliny]

We all know about semi gloss paper. I have never heard of semi matte paper.

It seems that you are on a quest for a non-reflective matte paper that also gives deep blacks, good contrast and good saturation. I think you will find that for the best in blacks, contrast and saturation, you will need a coated paper. That will mean some reflection due to the coating.

Personally, I gave up on matte papers. There are lots of very good semi gloss or luster papers with minimal reflection. It helps greatly to display the print under good lighting.

Finally, I concluded that none of the fine points of different papers make any substantial difference for prints displayed behind glazing. Even museum quality glass greatly alters the appearance.

 

[Ken60]

Jake as your in the UK , remember that if you purchase a pack of Fotospeed test paper you can download their profiling pack from their website, and use a sheet of the sample to generate a custom profile.

This is only a medium sample profile as an expensive custom profile needs around three A4 sheets ! Fotospeed produce these profiles the same day they receive back your printed chart, and E Mail you your profile. Best part is that this is a free service to buyers of their papers !

I suggest that you give this a try, perhaps a decent profile might bring your tones to a better level........ I have to ask what printer you're using, and again ask if you rework your images in photoshop for each type of paper. Some guys build filter sets in PS as a set of layers they can drop over an image to alter the levels to suit a particular paper.

 

[Jake_P]

We all know about semi gloss paper. I have never heard of semi matte paper.

It seems that you are on a quest for a non-reflective matte paper that also gives deep blacks, good contrast and good saturation. I think you will find that for the best in blacks, contrast and saturation, you will need a coated paper. That will mean some reflection due to the coating.

Personally, I gave up on matte papers. There are lots of very good semi gloss or luster papers with minimal reflection. It helps greatly to display the print under good lighting.

Finally, I concluded that none of the fine points of different papers make any substantial difference for prints displayed behind glazing. Even museum quality glass greatly alters the appearance.

Hi,

"I have never heard of semi matte paper."

Sorry, that was probably confusing on my part but yes, I was asking whether there was a half way house between a semi gloss/lustre surface and a full matte surface. Perhaps a hybrid that delivers better performance than full matte but something closer to semi gloss/lustre in performance.

I mentioned that I thought my only option for a more substantial 'feel' in the hand whilst still delivering the performance of a semi gloss/lustre paper would be a Baryta of some sort. The Baryta samples I've had still feel a bit too 'photographic' but like I said in the title - chasing rainbows! I think I'm pursuing the impossible.

I just found it interesting that there were more matte type Baryta's on the market and wondered if this was a potential avenue for further exploration.

You make a very good point about the glazing and once the print is framed, the 'feel' is pretty meaningless. I was kind of coming at it from a 'perceived' value approach in that the fine art papers feel amazing whereas the semi gloss/lustre papers can have a high street lab type feel to them. I do sell my prints fairly successfully so all this has been me thinking about offering up quality options for my buyers.

Thanks for your answers, I really appreciate your time.

 

[Adam2]

Don’t know why you are experiencing so much angst? There are dozens of papers which will meet your needs from nearly every high end manufacturer from Hahnemuhle to Canson. They should all be available in the UK.

 

[Jake_P]

Jake as your in the UK , remember that if you purchase a pack of Fotospeed test paper you can download their profiling pack from their website, and use a sheet of the sample to generate a custom profile.

This is only a medium sample profile as an expensive custom profile needs around three A4 sheets ! Fotospeed produce these profiles the same day they receive back your printed chart, and E Mail you your profile. Best part is that this is a free service to buyers of their papers !

I suggest that you give this a try, perhaps a decent profile might bring your tones to a better level........ I have to ask what printer you're using, and again ask if you rework your images in photoshop for each type of paper. Some guys build filter sets in PS as a set of layers they can drop over an image to alter the levels to suit a particular paper.

Hi,

Thanks for the info on Fotospeed - I did note their profiling options. I had planned on using a third party guy for getting some profiles made when/if I do ever continue down this rabbit hole but it makes sense to stick with the paper supplier if their offering their profiles for free

Good question about reworking the files for different papers. I've invested so much time and built up a big library of scanned textures/grunge that I use which print so well on the semi gloss. On the matt papers, the details do get lost.

Some of the working Photoshop files are huge - over 1GB (in 16 bit) and having to tweak those is something that's not really feasible! Using Baryta paper as opposed to my standard semi gloss would solve that problem, so maybe it is just a case of using a good quality heavy Baryta.

To answer your question, I've just ordered an Epson SC800 to replace a newly sent back Pro1000 (long story!). Up until then I'd used my R2880 and R3000 but needed to step up to an A2 format.

Appreciate the info, thank you.

 

[Ken60]

Interesting that you changed the Pro 1000 ( thats what I use ) .... I find the 16 Bit driver that Canon have to be excellent, I am well used to large files as I shoot with a quite high res camera and use many layers in comps etc.

If you are not reworking your files for each paper , then you can not expect to arrive at a happy place,,,,, its a bit like cooking without tasting as you go .

--
Gear ... what I need to get the job done , after all you don't see mechanics listing their brand of spanner as a qualification .

 

[Jake_P]

Don’t know why you are experiencing so much angst? There are dozens of papers which will meet your needs from nearly every high end manufacturer from Hahnemuhle to Canson. They should all be available in the UK.

That's the problem - I was asking if I was looking for the impossible and whether members had recommendations based on the criteria?

 

[Ken60]

Jake reading down I see you mention Baryta paper. I don't see where you mentioned texture to the paper, do you want a pure flat surface or something with a little texture ?

I have used and like Canson Platine , It is a great paper for B&W with a good deep black... but it needs imho the gloss optimiser that the canon Pro 1000 offers ! Canson also produce a more matte paper called Velin Museum rag that is lovely. Re profiles , fotospeed will produce free profiles for other manufacturers papers you buy from them. Though they are not the best price for the test packs ... if you get 5 profiles from a test pack for free , that is the equivalent price of £100 - £150 just for the profiles

It is more cost effective to buy 17" rolls , I would suggest a roll holder for the P800 . I buy 17 " and cut it by hand with a paper trimmer to 17" - 27" .

 

[Jake_P]

Interesting that you changed the Pro 1000 ( thats what I use ) .... I find the 16 Bit driver that Canon have to be excellent, I am well used to large files as I shoot with a quite high res camera and use many layers in comps etc.

If you are not reworking your files for each paper , then you can not expect to arrive at a happy place,,,,, its a bit like cooking without tasting as you go .

My files aren't all so huge as the one's I mentioned - some are pretty simple to be fair and could easily be tweaked whilst soft proofing..

Yes, the Pro 1000 seemed to answer all the short comings (depending on your opinion) of the SC800 but I got into a long drawn out return for the Pro 1000 and was able to source a SC800 quickly at a great price so should be here soon. Not looking forward to the black ink switch but do have a roll feed to play with

 

[Adam2]

Don’t know why you are experiencing so much angst? There are dozens of papers which will meet your needs from nearly every high end manufacturer from Hahnemuhle to Canson. They should all be available in the UK.

That's the problem - I was asking if I was looking for the impossible and whether members had recommendations based on the criteria?

Paper preferences are highly personal and that contributes to the challenge of making recommendations. Weight, feel, texture, coating, color, dmax, etc. are some of the factors which contribute to the elusiveness. In your original post you lamented over Baryta papers - what was your particular concern as they tend to have a nice combination of the features which many people find desirable. Are you intending to use the image for "presentation", place behind glazing, etc.? These are all factors which would influence one's choice. It would be fairly rote to make some shotgun recommendations though without a bit of clarification, your best bet is to order some sample packs from the major manufacturers (Hahnemule, Canson, Epson (their legacy papers are nice), Red River, Ilford, etc.) and see what you like best.

 

[Jake_P]

Jake reading down I see you mention Baryta paper. I don't see where you mentioned texture to the paper, do you want a pure flat surface or something with a little texture ?

I have used and like Canson Platine , It is a great paper for B&W with a good deep black... but it needs imho the gloss optimiser that the canon Pro 1000 offers ! Canson also produce a more matte paper called Velin Museum rag that is lovely. Re profiles , fotospeed will produce free profiles for other manufacturers papers you buy from them. Though they are not the best price for the test packs ... if you get 5 profiles from a test pack for free , that is the equivalent price of £100 - £150 just for the profiles

It is more cost effective to buy 17" rolls , I would suggest a roll holder for the P800 . I buy 17 " and cut it by hand with a paper trimmer to 17" - 27" .

Good point about the profiles being made from the sample packs- I'd probably use all the paper up on testing images though before deciding on getting profiles made!

The thread was about whether or not there was anything that existed in terms of a matt (ish) like paper with similar qualities of a semi gloss/lustre hence the title.

I feel like I'm looking for something that doesn't exist and my only option is to go Baryta if I want a step up in quality compared to a 250 gsm semi gloss that I was using (Epson) but still getting the same contrast punch. I think I got distracted by some of the matte type Barytas thinking this was maybe a solution but it appears not.

I took a look at the Canson Platine on Youtube just now and it's proabably a bit too textured - reminded me of the Hahnemühle Pearl that I've got as a sampler here.

I do have a roll feed attachment coming with my new SC800 so it's a potential avenue to explore also.

 

[mike earussi]

You're not alone in your quest. So am I and many others. So far, in the many tests I've done, the two best papers that come closest to your criteria are Canson Baryta Prestige and Innova Art ifa-45. Both have a slight textured surface which cuts down reflections but require PK ink so they retain deep blacks, but both are expensive--you get what you pay for.

 

[Ken60]

The thread was about whether or not there was anything that existed in terms of a matt (ish) like paper with similar qualities of a semi gloss/lustre hence the title.

I feel like I'm looking for something that doesn't exist and my only option is to go Baryta if I want a step up in quality compared to a 250 gsm semi gloss that I was using (Epson) but still getting the same contrast punch. I think I got distracted by some of the matte type Barytas thinking this was maybe a solution but it appears not.

Not wanting to seem blunt , but my answers did refer to your specific question..... your initial perception was wrong, if you take the same file you prepare for a semi gloss paper and send it to a smooth matte of any manufacturer, then you are not going to be happy.

So I aimed you at adjustment and profiling first, truth is if you were a printing expert ( I AM NOT ) that could prepare the files perfectly , then you would most probable produce a good print from most papers. You are looking for something that does not exist, frankly what's the point of lamb that tastes like chicken ?

 

[Gesture]

The only problem today is that there are so many great choices.

From what you said, I would look at Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Pearl and Moab Juniper if it it still being made. The latter is a wonderful paper but seems to have got lost in the shuffle.

 

[Adam2]

You're not alone in your quest. So am I and many others. So far, in the many tests I've done, the two best papers that come closest to your criteria are Canson Baryta Prestige and Innova Art ifa-45. Both have a slight textured surface which cuts down reflections but require PK ink so they retain deep blacks, but both are expensive--you get what you pay for.

Yes, the Canson Baryta is a very good paper though I find it a bit bright probably due to the OBA's. Epson Legacy Baryta is equally good and appears to have fewer OBA's. How this impacts longevity is anyone's guess. Years ago, I used to like Hahnemuhle's Harman's papers though they tended to warp and had significant OBA's though none of them have faded appreciably.

The Platine papers whether from Canson, Epson, etc. are very nice too and I tend to use them for my Archival prints though the Dmax is not as good as the Baryta.

 

[Ken60]

I agree with the comments about OBA's and longevity, but like the contrast that bright white gives both with Platine and IFA 26.

On the few tries I had using Canson Baryta Prestige and Baryta Photographique , both of which are amazing papers, I found they tended towards metaramism , only saved by the gloss optimiser of the Pro 1000 in overall setting.

For a not totally smooth matte paper I would head towards Hahnemuhle Rag and Canson Velin Museum Rag, both of which I have seen used in displays and exhibiting great tonal range .

----------
Gear ... what I need to get the job done , after all you don't see mechanics listing their brand of spanner as a qualification .

 

[Jake_P]

The thread was about whether or not there was anything that existed in terms of a matt (ish) like paper with similar qualities of a semi gloss/lustre hence the title.

I feel like I'm looking for something that doesn't exist and my only option is to go Baryta if I want a step up in quality compared to a 250 gsm semi gloss that I was using (Epson) but still getting the same contrast punch. I think I got distracted by some of the matte type Barytas thinking this was maybe a solution but it appears not.

Not wanting to seem blunt , but my answers did refer to your specific question..... your initial perception was wrong, if you take the same file you prepare for a semi gloss paper and send it to a smooth matte of any manufacturer, then you are not going to be happy.

So I aimed you at adjustment and profiling first, truth is if you were a printing expert ( I AM NOT ) that could prepare the files perfectly , then you would most probable produce a good print from most papers. You are looking for something that does not exist, frankly what's the point of lamb that tastes like chicken ?

I think we may have got our wires crossed so for that I apologise. I never said I was having problems matching my images across papers - I thought you were just making a side note. What I've found is that with the paper I've tested, it's not possible to get a black (or similar contrasty colors) to be as black as my current semi gloss black using various matte papers.

"You are looking for something that does not exist"

I do keep pointing that out in my responses to various posts but wanted clarification

 

[Charles2]

Canson Printmaking Rag (formerly called Canson BFK Rives).

 

[Alan Goldhammer]

The only problem today is that there are so many great choices.

From what you said, I would look at Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Pearl and Moab Juniper if it it still being made. The latter is a wonderful paper but seems to have got lost in the shuffle.

Moab Juniper is still manufactured and is very much like Museo Silver Rag that I do a lot printing on.