Dye vs. pigment on matte and fine art paper

[NAwlins Contrarian]

Thank you, that sounds promising. Do you know if this "plain paper" that I could use with the pigment black, still has to be *inkjet* paper, or can it be any card stock (as long as the printer can handle the thickness)?

As long as the printer can handle the thickness, and maybe more importantly the stiffness, then anything from copier paper to cardstock should work. Just remember that what you get is essentially the same as you could get with a 600 ppi B&W laser printer: only black, or not, at each of the 600 dpi spaces. Whether that would be suitable for "black-and-white artwork (no greys)" is something that would depend a lot on the artwork, I think.

But maybe a deeper question is in order: if that would suffice for your artwork, maybe would you be better off with a B&W laser printer, as long as you could find one that can handle the thickness and stiffness of whatever you want to print on? And if not, how would an iP8720 be better? Or is it really the iP8720's ability to print 13x19 inches that makes it suitable?

 

[Raist3d]

I really think that if the intent is to print a photo in B&W, printing with the photo grey/black will outclass the single pigment black/white.

 

[NAwlins Contrarian]

I really think that if the intent is to print a photo in B&W, printing with the photo grey/black will outclass the single pigment black/white.

Yes, and more than that: the pigment black has such low resolution that it cannot possibly simulate anything approaching continuous tone. It will only work if the artwork is really black, like a cartoon. Many years ago I had a little piece of software to print grayscale halftones (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halftone) on my original Apple StyleWriter (1991), which was a 360 dpi B&W inkjet. The software did a good job for what it was: a low-resolution, coarse tonality printing system producing results that looked like an older newspaper photo. Since then printer firmware has improved, but printing something like a B&W photo on a regular laser printer, or a Canon in plain paper / pigment ink mode is not going to produce anything better than a mediocre result.

 

[GenieW]

Thanks, and good point about paper stiffness being a factor.

I have a colour laser printer at home, which prints at 600 dpi and does a surprisingly good job in both colour and b/w (if it took thicker paper and printed larger than 8.5x14", it might actually even meet my needs!). I cannot imagine the ip8720's pigment black doing a worse job, especially if the image is pure b/w (pen / marker artwork, with no greys).

To answer your question: My artwork is not just b/w, but colour as well (sample fragments below). I've been eyeing the ip8720 mostly due to its compact size and light weight, and fewer cartridges to deal with. And considering I might be printing mostly on matte, having a pigment black (which I *assume* will be darker / deeper on matte than a dye black?) for printing strictly b/w artwork, seems like a bonus.

My only concern is paper thickness, but Raist3d was able to print on Canon's Photo Paper Pro, which I *assume* is thick enough for prints that will be sold.

Unfortunately, I don't know if any of my assumptions are correct. The only way to know for sure is to buy the printer. :-|

Thank you, that sounds promising. Do you know if this "plain paper" that I could use with the pigment black, still has to be *inkjet* paper, or can it be any card stock (as long as the printer can handle the thickness)?

As long as the printer can handle the thickness, and maybe more importantly the stiffness, then anything from copier paper to cardstock should work. Just remember that what you get is essentially the same as you could get with a 600 ppi B&W laser printer: only black, or not, at each of the 600 dpi spaces. Whether that would be suitable for "black-and-white artwork (no greys)" is something that would depend a lot on the artwork, I think.

But maybe a deeper question is in order: if that would suffice for your artwork, maybe would you be better off with a B&W laser printer, as long as you could find one that can handle the thickness and stiffness of whatever you want to print on? And if not, how would an iP8720 be better? Or is it really the iP8720's ability to print 13x19 inches that makes it suitable?

 

[Gesture]

No longer confused.

Yes, the Pro-100 prints well for me on the newer semi-gloss/slight-gloss fine art papers meant to emulate the old double-weight air dried glossy (F surface) photo paper.

Only problem: we only have dozens of choices now!

 

[NAwlins Contrarian]

I cannot imagine the ip8720's pigment black doing a worse job, especially if the image is pure b/w (pen / marker artwork, with no greys).

That may be true, but generally laser printers are a bit more precise about placing their dots than inkjet printers are, so generally I would expect a 600 ppi / dpi* laser printer to look a little better than a 600 ppi / dpi pigment inkjet printer--and some laser printers have resolutions higher than 600 dpi.

My artwork is not just b/w, but colour as well (sample fragments below). I've been eyeing the ip8720 mostly due to its compact size and light weight, and fewer cartridges to deal with. And considering I might be printing mostly on matte, having a pigment black (which I *assume* will be darker / deeper on matte than a dye black?) for printing strictly b/w artwork, seems like a bonus.

I am not at all sure that the iP8720 would mix in pigment black with dye color inks to print your artwork. Even if it does, the much lower resolution of the pigment black might well cause coarseness issues. Also, specifying plain paper as the media type may well make the printer deposit a lighter ink load than would be appropriate for cardstock or heavier matte paper, resulting in reduced optical density and color saturation.

But that is my speculation. I don't know the technical details of how an iP8720 would print your artwork on 'plain' paper. More importantly, how it would look is a big question. If you can find someone with an iP8720 willing to print a couple of tests for you, that would be best.

On the other hand, based on the way the Pro-100 prints with its dye-only inks on Canon PM-101 Pro Premium Matte and Red River 60 lb Polar Matte (I've used both), you might well be satisfied with even dye-black-ink prints from the iP8720.

My only concern is paper thickness, but Raist3d was able to print on Canon's Photo Paper Pro, which I *assume* is thick enough for prints that will be sold.

B&H lists the specifications for Canon PM-101 Pro Premium Matte as 12.2 mil (0.31mm) thickness and 210 gsm. I think that is saleable, but you know your market much better than I do. Alternatively, you could always mount the print to a heavier board.
*In the case of a B&W printer, they are the same; in the case of a color inkjet, usually they are very different.

 

[GenieW]

I cannot imagine the ip8720's pigment black doing a worse job, especially if the image is pure b/w (pen / marker artwork, with no greys).

That may be true, but generally laser printers are a bit more precise about placing their dots than inkjet printers are, so generally I would expect a 600 ppi / dpi* laser printer to look a little better than a 600 ppi / dpi pigment inkjet printer--and some laser printers have resolutions higher than 600 dpi.

My artwork is not just b/w, but colour as well (sample fragments below). I've been eyeing the ip8720 mostly due to its compact size and light weight, and fewer cartridges to deal with. And considering I might be printing mostly on matte, having a pigment black (which I *assume* will be darker / deeper on matte than a dye black?) for printing strictly b/w artwork, seems like a bonus.

I am not at all sure that the iP8720 would mix in pigment black with dye color inks to print your artwork. Even if it does, the much lower resolution of the pigment black might well cause coarseness issues. Also, specifying plain paper as the media type may well make the printer deposit a lighter ink load than would be appropriate for cardstock or heavier matte paper, resulting in reduced optical density and color saturation.

Sorry, I realize now that the way I phrased this was unclear. I meant to say that for b/w artwork, where dark / dense black is particularly important, I would use pigment black on plain matte paper or card stock.

But that is my speculation. I don't know the technical details of how an iP8720 would print your artwork on 'plain' paper. More importantly, how it would look is a big question. If you can find someone with an iP8720 willing to print a couple of tests for you, that would be best.

I doubt it would be an option for me. I'm hoping to collect enough information and feedback from wonderful online forums such as this one, to be able to go with my gut.

Appreciate all of your responses and suggestions.

On the other hand, based on the way the Pro-100 prints with its dye-only inks on Canon PM-101 Pro Premium Matte and Red River 60 lb Polar Matte (I've used both), you might well be satisfied with even dye-black-ink prints from the iP8720.

My only concern is paper thickness, but Raist3d was able to print on Canon's Photo Paper Pro, which I *assume* is thick enough for prints that will be sold.

B&H lists the specifications for Canon PM-101 Pro Premium Matte as 12.2 mil (0.31mm) thickness and 210 gsm. I think that is saleable, but you know your market much better than I do. Alternatively, you could always mount the print to a heavier board.

*In the case of a B&W printer, they are the same; in the case of a color inkjet, usually they are very different.

 

[NAwlins Contrarian]

But that is my speculation. I don't know the technical details of how an iP8720 would print your artwork on 'plain' paper. More importantly, how it would look is a big question. If you can find someone with an iP8720 willing to print a couple of tests for you, that would be best.

I doubt it would be an option for me. I'm hoping to collect enough information and feedback from wonderful online forums such as this one, to be able to go with my gut.

I tell you what: this would not answer the questions about pure B&W artwork and the iP8720's 600 dpi pigment-ink printing, but if you want to private-message me a link to a dropbox containing a full-size sample of your color artwork, I'll print it on the Pro-100 at work, on Canon PM-101 Pro Matte, and mail it to you. That will give you an idea of the color and density you're likely to get with the iP8720. The Pro-100's added inks will mean smoother tonal gradations, but the gamut and contrast should be very similar. Both use ChromaLife 100+ inks.

 

[GenieW]

Thank you very much for your kind offer. I'll take a rain check on it, if I may. Last night, I had a bit of a "research breakthrough": I discovered that ip8720 is sold in other parts of the world as ip8740, ip8750, and ip8760, and it looks like there's quite a lot of feedback / info on these models online (especially the 8750, which I believe is the UK version).

People are actually saying good things about them, and I even found confirmation in several places that they can handle thicker media and fine art paper. The only question that remains is b/w printing using pigment ink. Dye black, unfortunately, didn't get great reviews, but it sounds like I can try a few things to improve the results.

A couple users on this forum own one of these 8700-series printers, so I plan to reach out to them about the pigment black.

EDIT: I used Canon's live chat today, and they told me that the heaviest plain paper supported is 28lb, and that anything heavier will cause a paper jam. :-| How is it possible that a printer takes up to 300+gsm inkjet paper, but only supports what is essentially just copy paper in plain paper mode?

But that is my speculation. I don't know the technical details of how an iP8720 would print your artwork on 'plain' paper. More importantly, how it would look is a big question. If you can find someone with an iP8720 willing to print a couple of tests for you, that would be best.

I doubt it would be an option for me. I'm hoping to collect enough information and feedback from wonderful online forums such as this one, to be able to go with my gut.

I tell you what: this would not answer the questions about pure B&W artwork and the iP8720's 600 dpi pigment-ink printing, but if you want to private-message me a link to a dropbox containing a full-size sample of your color artwork, I'll print it on the Pro-100 at work, on Canon PM-101 Pro Matte, and mail it to you. That will give you an idea of the color and density you're likely to get with the iP8720. The Pro-100's added inks will mean smoother tonal gradations, but the gamut and contrast should be very similar. Both use ChromaLife 100+ inks.