Very disappointed at the nikon 85mm 1.8G

Mr Fus

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I had the previous sigma 85mm 1.4 (not the art version) which I sold since I had issues with always nailing the focus. Basically my keep rate was not bad but not perfect. Now that I have a toddler need something that can nail the focus faster.

However I was very happy with the image quality of this lens. Lots of pics in our house come from this lens.

To replace it i bought the Nikon 85mm 1.8G. This lens is very sharp, even wide open. However we are very unhappy about the rather unflattering skin tones, bokeh quality and lack of pop.

Do I get a sigma Art 85mm and go back to dealing with a not ideal keep rate? Do I for the nikon 85mm 1.4? very expensive and I hate CA. The 85mm does have horrible CA.

I am also shooting with a D600. I wonder if the stepping up to D850 will increase keep rate with moving subjects.
 
To replace it i bought the Nikon 85mm 1.8G. This lens is very sharp, even wide open. However we are very unhappy about the rather unflattering skin tones, bokeh quality and lack of pop.
I shoot a 85 1.8G along side my 24-70G and 70-200II and see no difference in colors.

What is wrong with the bokeh? It is very nice and close to the 1.4. Nasim has a good comparison on his site.

photographylife.com/reviews/nikon-85mm-f1-8g/2
 
Absolutely nothing other than it is not as pastel like as the previous gen 85mm sigma 1.4.
 
Different lenses will draw differently.

If you prefer some special quality produced by one, expecting other lenses to duplicate that quality may be too much of a stretch.

It's pretty tough to get every quality you admire in a single package.
 
I am not sure how to explain in a technical way, but I understand your point.

I have an 85/1.8G and like it in good light. As good as its IQ is, I like it only in bright/daylight. When the light goes down, or shooting indoors, the Sigma 18-35/1.8 produces very nice colors compared to the 85/1.8G

When shooting at higher ISO, the 18-35/1.8 produces less noise than the 85/1.8G. Both are 1.8, both have no VR, and I use both on D7200 at the same location/lighting.

Then there is the rendering of 85/1.8G in good light. I use it for shooting paintings, artwork, etc. After testing six different lenses that I have, I like the results from this lens the most. They look closest to the original painting/artwork.

I am not sure what makes it tick in some situations and not the others!
 
A complex post with a complex answer. My apologies as this won't be short :(

Let's take the easier subject first: The camera. Truth be told, as a general rule, the more complex your AF requirements are, the more the "better" cameras will serve you in terms of AF performance, which includes of course consistency. This statement does not mean in any way that a "lessor" body is garbage; more that as your own AF needs evolve, and tracking babies might be one of these situations, the better the odds are that a more advanced body with better AF would serve you well. In my experience, having shot or owned nearly ever Nikon DSLR since the D100 so many moons ago, and having owned the D610 up until a couple years ago, the 39pt AF system in the D6xx range is not one I hold in high regard with tracking ability or AF consistency, which is why I moved on from it. However, it isn't junk either. Unfortunately, moving up to a D850 is going to be an expensive proposition, so you might want to seriously consider renting one of those before making any other further judgements.

Now the complicated stuff: The lens.

A lot of people in this forum like to talk about lenses they'e never shot, but I'll get right to the point and tell you I've not shot the 85/1.4 Sigma EX in far too long, nor long enough, to truly know it's character or strengths/weaknesses these days. However, at 85mm, other than not being able to talk about that one, I have a lot of 85mm experience, as for a short time I owned three (!) 85mm lenses at the same time: The Sigma 85/1.4 Art, the Tamron 85/1.8 VC, and the Zeiss Milvus 85/1.4. I currently only own the Sigma art and the Zeiss. Prior to those, I owned the 85/1.8G, the 85/1.8 AFD, the 85/1.4 AFD, and I've shot with the 85/1.4G as well as the Zeiss 85/1.4 Otus.

From a resolution point of view, which means you'd see more of a difference once/if you moved to a higher resolution body, the sharpest 85mm autofocus lens in Nikon mount at this time is the Sigma 85/1.4 Art, hands down, no question about it. It's notably sharper than any other 85mm AF option. Only the two Zeiss manual focus lenses play in the same court - the 85 Zeiss Otus is sharper by a small bit, and the 85 Zeiss Milvus, stopped down to F/5.6 or so, might be a bit sharper as well. But if resolution is your thing, the 85/1.4 Sigma Art is your lens. Focus wise, it's also far better than most earlier Sigma lenses in terms of AF speed and consistency - it's rare for me to miss a shot with it, at least on my D800E bodies. Bokeh wise, it's going to be in the "good but not world class" territory. The best "bokeh" 85mm lenses I've used are, at #1: The Zeiss 85/1.4 Milvus, #2: The Nikon 85/1.4 AFD, and close behind that, the Tamron 85/1.8 VC and Nikon 85/1.4G, with the Tamron having far less CA. I don't consider the 85mm F/1.8 options to have great bokeh, but at the same time, I wouldn't say they have "horrid" bokeh either - it's more to the negative side than the positive, and from what I've heard about the Sigma 85 EX you used to have, that lens had fairly decent bokeh. So it doesn't surprise me you're not happy with the 85/1.8G bokeh.

The 85/1.8G is a pedestrian, pretty good-but-not-great 85mm lens these days. A couple of years ago, it was the best "value for the money'" lens, but IMO, after testing it side by side for nearly a month with the Tamron 85/1.8 VC, the Tamron is easily and clearly the better choice anywhere near this price range, and actually is the lens I'd suggest you try next. I'd also strongly suggest you rent before buying, as rendering gets personal. The Tamron 85/1.8 VC is the current "best bang for the buck" 85mm lens going - it's almost as sharp as the "best", has better bokeh than the Nikon, focuses a bit faster, and has slightly warmer native color cast. If I couldn't own what I do today, I'd have the Tamron, and I'm incredibly picky.

... which leads us to the tricky part of the discussion. Color. Everyone wants to be an "expert" at evaluating color, and "better color" or "worse color" gets thrown out almost immediately when someone either likes or doesn't like a lens. Yet, the sad truth, that you may not like hearing either, is that the odds are you, and most folks in the forum community, don't own a tool good enough to properly judge/evaluate accurate color visually. Truth be told, in my mind, it's a two thing game here - if you truly want to accurately judge and evaluate color, you own either a hardware calibrated Eizo coloredge monitor, or a hardware calibrated NEC spectraview monitor. Everyone else doesn't get to play. Those are expensive monitors. So most folks don't own one (disclaimer: I own an NEC, a friend owns an Eizo, both of used to have less expensive monitors yet neither of us would ever go back. We'd sell a lens if we had to, just to keep our monitors). So the next best thing is to calibrate your monitor, which at least gets you into a reasonable ballpark of being able to judge color. Better yet is to actually *measure* a reference color using the color RGB display in photoshop, which doesn't lie.

... So, that means most folks are judging/evaluating *relative* color differences within their own world of their monitor (which is funny because so many think that this means they can pronounce some lenses as having "deeper richer color" when they don't own a tool that can even remotely allow such an absolute statement to be stated when we think about it). The next thing we have to realize is that many lenses have different color casts - and the cast *itself* can cause one to, shall we say, make an inaccurate assessment of the color. What we should be doing instead is shooting lenses we wish to compare with the white balance preset to each lens, thus normalizing out, as best as we can, the color cast. But back to color casts. Old Sigma glass had a reputation of being slightly warmer, trending to yellow. Some Nikon glass trends very slightly cool. So now let's think what happens when you take a warmer rendering lens (warm native color cast) and shoot human skin. Should look pretty good. In general, humans do not look great if they are cold in color balance, although for some reason many photographers trend towards cold rendering lenses for humans. In contrast, when you shoot a slightly cooler rendering lens on skin, it doesn't look so good, or perhaps it just looks different than what you were used to if you used to shoot a warmer rendering lens. The point is, the direction of the color cast is either going to a) make things look great if the color of the subject works with the direction of the cast, or b), the opposite. This is why you seriously have to watch out for those who claim, say, a Nikon 35/2 AFD has "warmer, richer colors" than it's competitors, because if that lens is WB normalized with the competitors, there won't be any "warmer/richer" at all, and in fact, the 35/2D is generally not as warm (by measurement) as many of the competitors in terms of native color cast. In short, be careful when someone starts using the color "argument" to defend their lens. Don't be one of those guys - learn how to do a preset WB and get the cast normalized out, and you might find the color of the 85/1.8G is good enough for what you do.

So, to summarize:

1) Consider renting a D850 to see if it's AF improvements help you out

2) Consider renting the Tamron 85/1.8 VC, as it's sharper, has better bokeh, than the Nikon 85/1.8G, and it has a slightly warmer native color cast, which even though as explained above you should learn how to normalize out, might be a hair closer to what you were used to.

3) The Sigma 85/1.4 Art is a stupendously sharp lens with "good/not great" bokeh, but with one of the strongest "cold" native color casts around - again, I preset WB my camera just to this lens when I use it. I tend to think you'd hate it's "default" native color cast for people. It's also extremely heavy and big and I'm not sure it's "you" relative to the Tamron noted above.

4) Learn to WB preset per lens before thinking about lens differences in terms of color. You might find you don't mind the 85/1.8G after all if you do that.

Good luck.

-m
 
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Thank you. Your comments are very well thought out and helpful.

I have an imac pro with the latest version spider calibration hardware. It is decent but far from a pro set up.

I get what you say and I agree. Coincidentally the sigma ex 85mm was heavily wb off. The shots that came out of that lens always required white color balance.

The 85mm 1 8g look very accurate. The rendition I see with this lens is accurate but flat and uninteresting. This lens is the sharpest lens I've ever used. However I find I preferred the ex because the colors, once balanced were more pleasent. I feel the 85mm 1.8g has better micro contrast as well. As you know sharper does not equal better.
 
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I had no issues with the sharpness, colour or bokeh if the two copies I owned, one on a D750 and one on a D600.

what did it for me was the inability of the lens to be able to accurately focus, both my copies needing about -25 on the adjustment scale at close focus and less at distance.
 
I owned the 1.8G for a while. I liked that lens a lot, but I agree though it had excellent sharpness, the (axial) chromatic aberration was a big problem especially in high contrast areas. I later got the Nikon 105mm f/1.4 which was a bit better, but still has noticeable axial CA. The Sigma 105 1.4 Art is my current keeper - it has much better control of the CA and is just optically a lot better than most Nikon primes - the sharpness and contrast is unreal (however it is quite massive).

Honestly I think the Sigma Art lenses are the only real option if you want optically perfect-ish fast primes with autofocus. The newer Art lenses like the 135/1.8 and 105/1.4 seem to be free of AF issues. If you don't need AF there are some other options like Samyang or Zeiss.

The 70-200mm f/2.8E FL is another great option - practically zero axial CA and arguably a lot more versatile than a prime, but less bokeh at the shorter focal lengths.
 
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I find the way you write about the 85/1.8 G confusing.

Where I come from, pastels are low-contrast items. That is not supposed to be good in a lens, unless you want dreamy shots wide open.

About skin tones, why not just profile your lens+body combination? The influence of lens coatings are not so drastic you can't get a good result this way.

Re "pop", do you mean contrast, or do you mean that murky "3D pop", which appears to mean smooth bokeh for OOF areas?

You write as if the contrast of the 85/1.8 G is not a good thing. So you'll have to go back to older lenses. You are not going to get less contrast with a Sigma Art!

Maybe you should try the 85mm f1.4 D?
To replace it i bought the Nikon 85mm 1.8G. This lens is very sharp, even wide open. However we are very unhappy about the rather unflattering skin tones, bokeh quality and lack of pop.

Mr Fus wrote:

Absolutely nothing other than it is not as pastel like as the previous gen 85mm sigma 1.4.

Mr Fus wrote:

I get what you say and I agree. Coincidentally the sigma ex 85mm was heavily wb off. The shots that came out of that lens always required white color balance.

The 85mm 1 8g look very accurate. The rendition I see with this lens is accurate but flat and uninteresting. This lens is the sharpest lens I've ever used. However I find I preferred the ex because the colors, once balanced were more pleasent. I feel the 85mm 1.8g has better micro contrast as well. As you know sharper does not equal better.
 
I had the previous sigma 85mm 1.4 (not the art version) which I sold since I had issues with always nailing the focus. Basically my keep rate was not bad but not perfect. Now that I have a toddler need something that can nail the focus faster.
I own the Sigma. I don't get a perfect "keep" rate either, but I don't expect one. I don't blame the lens for the misses -- when I look at my technique and focus points the misses are almost always on me.
Do I get a sigma Art 85mm and go back to dealing with a not ideal keep rate? Do I for the nikon 85mm 1.4? very expensive and I hate CA. The 85mm does have horrible CA.
I'll mention the obvious in passing:
  • Post Pics
  • Remove any filter
  • Attach the lens hood
  • Take back control over white balance from the camera.
But I think the key is in your last sentence. If you're seeing a "horrible" lateral CA, then you likely have a decentered element or other defect with your copy of the lens. The 85mm f/1.8g has a very good reputation for controlling lateral CA.

I wouldn't assume your "keep rate" is going to be less with the Sigma Art. But it is a big and heavy lens, and you may find that when trying to get shots of toddlers inertia is not your friend.

One of the biggest advantages I've found in using "pro" gear is that it eliminates the very human tendency to blame your tools for your less-than-optimal results. So my advice is to rent a D850 and a Nikon f/1.4g, see how much it improves your results, and then decide whether it's worth nearly 5 grand to you to get a slightly less imperfect keep rate.
 
  • fishy wishy wrote:
I find the way you write about the 85/1.8 G confusing.

Where I come from, pastels are low-contrast items. That is not supposed to be good in a lens, unless you want dreamy shots wide open.

About skin tones, why not just profile your lens+body combination? The influence of lens coatings are not so drastic you can't get a good result this way.

Re "pop", do you mean contrast, or do you mean that murky "3D pop", which appears to mean smooth bokeh for OOF areas?

You write as if the contrast of the 85/1.8 G is not a good thing. So you'll have to go back to older lenses. You are not going to get less contrast with a Sigma Art!

Maybe you should try the 85mm f1.4 D?
To replace it i bought the Nikon 85mm 1.8G. This lens is very sharp, even wide open. However we are very unhappy about the rather unflattering skin tones, bokeh quality and lack of pop.

Mr Fus wrote:

Absolutely nothing other than it is not as pastel like as the previous gen 85mm sigma 1.4.

Mr Fus wrote:

I get what you say and I agree. Coincidentally the sigma ex 85mm was heavily wb off. The shots that came out of that lens always required white color balance.

The 85mm 1 8g look very accurate. The rendition I see with this lens is accurate but flat and uninteresting. This lens is the sharpest lens I've ever used. However I find I preferred the ex because the colors, once balanced were more pleasent. I feel the 85mm 1.8g has better micro contrast as well. As you know sharper does not equal better.
Yes you have all correct. I realize that nikon 1.8g lens can be seem by most as better lens because it is sharper, nails wb more often (obviously this has to do w the fact that it is nikon made glass), has better micro contrast.

I think you must be correct. pastel colors could be a bad. I'm telling you that the nikon 85mm 1.8g is sharper and reveals more detail.

The problem is I'm shooting people. I dont need to see their skin imperfections on full display.

Yes by pop/3d I refer to the quality of the transition to out of focus areas that is very smooth and pleasent in the EX.

I can use a WB setting for lens but really I edit portraits one by one. I use warmth as a composition tool. I'm not batch processing nowadays.
 
Souds like you have not used the sigma 85mm EX side by side nikon glass. If you pretend that AF and accuracy is the same as native glass. I really cant help you there.

I dont want the 85mm 1.4g. It is expensive and imho it is outdated.
 
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Try the Tamron 85mm 1.8 VC.

You won't be disappointed, quality lens, plus the VC comes in handy.
 
I completely agree with you. My issue in buying sigma today is also related to weight. The 105mm 1.4 sigma looks perfect except it is freaking massive and would be to tight to shoot around the house.
 
Souds like you have not used the sigma 85mm EX side by side nikon glass. If you pretend that AF and accuracy is the same as native glass. I really cant help you there.
if you would have taken a look at my profile you would see that’s not the case. I don’t have to “pretend.” But then, I’m not the one looking for help.
I dont want the 85mm 1.4g. It is expensive and imho it is ourdated.
So you don’t want either Nikkor and you are dismissing 3rd party lenses out of hand. I’m afraid this exchange can’t end well.
 
Hmm. You're right in that in terms of rendition of OOF area transition, the 85/1.8G is going to just be a mid-pack lens, and from what I remember, and what I heard, about your older sigma, that was that lenses specialty.

I generally prefer lenses that are very well corrected (meaning sharper) for what I do, as I'm not a "bokeh" centric shooter, but my idea for you is, if you want to take a chance on something besides the Tamron 1.8, is perhaps look at the 85/1.4 AFD? No, it's not as sharp wide open, so you'll need to stop it down, and it has some CA, but in terms of OOF transition, you won't find a better 85mm lens until you get to the Zeiss 85 Milvus. That quality is why people, even today, shoot it, and work around it's other flaws. I haven't checked the used prices of them lately, but surely they can't be as pricey as a new 85 art...

-m
 
Get the 85mm 1.4 D, you won’t find a better portrait lens.
 
How about zeiss planar 85mm f1.4 ZF? I own 85 1.4D and like the lens, but i heard the zeiss have different character and render image different. I'm always want to try the ZF
 
thanks. I think I will take a good look at the tamron. Lots of recommendations.

As far as manual focus with the zeiss I have a dumb question. How do people nail focus without a prism. I have not used manual focus since I have a teenager haha.
 
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