Nikon Zx: The Five Questions for Astrophotography / Night Landscapes

[rick colman]

1) Sensor performance - optimized toward low-light, low-noise ISOless performance?

NUFF SAID

2) Lens selection - adequate or not?

-- don' t give a hoot about autofocus
-- sharp corners without COMA
-- minimal vignetting

3) Ergonomics -

-- can I hike it in,
-- do I go nuts trying to find the right button or menu in the dark.
-- is the EVF setup for good star focusing

4) GPS - not built in BOO-HOO!! can I attach and use their outboard GPS unit,

5) Funny Business -

SONY Star-Eater business was/is a horrowshow for me.

Keep in mind that Nikon had a similar problem with the d800 or something similar. I am told they recognized the problem and fixed it. Will Nikon remember the past for Z cameras.

 

[Cliff Fujii]

1) Sensor performance - optimized toward low-light, low-noise ISOless performance?

Sounds like the Z6 if you're interested in low noise.

NUFF SAID

2) Lens selection - adequate or not?

I would connect my Z7 directly to my Celestron C9 1.4 SCT.

-- don' t give a hoot about autofocus
-- sharp corners without COMA
-- minimal vignetting

3) Ergonomics -

So far it sounds like the Z series handle like a D850 so most of the reviewers said that it felt like a Nikon

-- can I hike it in,
-- do I go nuts trying to find the right button or menu in the dark.
-- is the EVF setup for good star focusing

4) GPS - not built in BOO-HOO!! can I attach and use their outboard GPS unit,

It appears that the GP-1 is not compatible with the Z series. Maybe Nikon will come out with a GPS accessory like they did for the 1Nikon cameras.

5) Funny Business -

SONY Star-Eater business was/is a horror show for me.

Keep in mind that Nikon had a similar problem with the d800 or something similar. I am told they recognized the problem and fixed it. Will Nikon remember the past for Z cameras.

Nikon has a good reputation for fixing design flaws especially those that are caused by a mis-design that is their fault.

 

[JimKasson]

1) Sensor performance - optimized toward low-light, low-noise ISOless performance?

Sounds like the Z6 if you're interested in low noise.

Do you have information that indicates that the Z6 has better photographic dynamic range corrected for resolution than the Z7?

Or are you talking about RN? Do you have RN information for the Z6? I'd be interested.
Jim

 

[Cliff Fujii]

1) Sensor performance - optimized toward low-light, low-noise ISOless performance?

Sounds like the Z6 if you're interested in low noise.

Do you have information that indicates that the Z6 has better photographic dynamic range corrected for resolution than the Z7?

Or are you talking about RN? Do you have RN information for the Z6? I'd be interested.

Jim

Like most people, right now, I get my information from reading Nikon's brochures. It looks like the Z6 will not be shipping until Nov. For me, if I wanted to stay with 24MP, I would keep my X-H1 but I want the larger sensor so I preordered the Z7. Now I can finally sell my D810 and Df. I have some non-AI lenses but they are in my Nikon museum (cameras I have owned since the 60's). I'm hoping that Nikon has taken a lesson from the One series and I hope they don't make the same mistakes again.

 

[JimKasson]

1) Sensor performance - optimized toward low-light, low-noise ISOless performance?

Sounds like the Z6 if you're interested in low noise.

Do you have information that indicates that the Z6 has better photographic dynamic range corrected for resolution than the Z7?

Or are you talking about RN? Do you have RN information for the Z6? I'd be interested.

Jim

Like most people, right now, I get my information from reading Nikon's brochures. It looks like the Z6 will not be shipping until Nov. For me, if I wanted to stay with 24MP, I would keep my X-H1 but I want the larger sensor so I preordered the Z7. Now I can finally sell my D810 and Df. I have some non-AI lenses but they are in my Nikon museum (cameras I have owned since the 60's). I'm hoping that Nikon has taken a lesson from the One series and I hope they don't make the same mistakes again.

But you must have had some reason to say that the Z6 is the one if you want low noise. What was it?

Jim

 

[syberman7]

But you must have had some reason to say that the Z6 is the one if you want low noise. What was it?

Jim

I imagine he is going on the old notion that fewer larger pixels produce less image noise, whereas in fact it is largely a function of the light collecting area of the whole sensor.

(But I don't need to tell you that )

 

[kiwi2]

1) Sensor performance - optimized toward low-light, low-noise ISOless performance?

NUFF SAID

2) Lens selection - adequate or not?

I would like to see something wider and f/2 or faster.

The Sigma 14mm F1.8 Art is a beast for astro nightscapes on FF cameras at the moment. Wide, fast, while being sharp and coma free.

So something similar to that.

The 20mm F1.8 coming out next year could make a good astro nightscape lens if coma is well controlled wide open.

 

[kiwi2]

But you must have had some reason to say that the Z6 is the one if you want low noise. What was it?

Jim

I imagine he is going on the old notion that fewer larger pixels produce less image noise, whereas in fact it is largely a function of the light collecting area of the whole sensor.

(But I don't need to tell you that )

The Z7 has a ISO range of 64 - 25,600.

The Z6 has a range of 64 - 51,200.

That's one stop extra. Usually if a camera is given a higher ISO range, then it's usually because it has better high ISO noise performance.

 

[AwesomeIan]

1) Sensor performance - optimized toward low-light, low-noise ISOless performance?

NUFF SAID

2) Lens selection - adequate or not?

-- don' t give a hoot about autofocus
-- sharp corners without COMA
-- minimal vignetting

3) Ergonomics -

-- can I hike it in,
-- do I go nuts trying to find the right button or menu in the dark.
-- is the EVF setup for good star focusing

4) GPS - not built in BOO-HOO!! can I attach and use their outboard GPS unit,

5) Funny Business -

SONY Star-Eater business was/is a horrowshow for me.

Keep in mind that Nikon had a similar problem with the d800 or something similar. I am told they recognized the problem and fixed it. Will Nikon remember the past for Z cameras.

1. This is currently unclear. Wait until these are out in the wild

2. They say the 24mm 1.4 is the gold standard for astrophotography and that lens will be available in a F mount

3. Its smaller than a DSLR so yeah. Not sure if the buttons are lighted. Everything I read has good things to say about the EVF but honestly I never tried viewing stars with a mirrorless

4. You can geotag you photos in post. If GPS is important I suggest checking out the Pentax K-1. It has astrotracer. This uses the GPS and the IBIS together to move the sensor so you can do long exposure without stars streaking.

5. Hopefully Nikon will leave RAW edits to the photographer and not the camera

 

[JimKasson]

But you must have had some reason to say that the Z6 is the one if you want low noise. What was it?

Jim

I imagine he is going on the old notion that fewer larger pixels produce less image noise, whereas in fact it is largely a function of the light collecting area of the whole sensor.

(But I don't need to tell you that )

The Z7 has a ISO range of 64 - 25,600.

The Z6 has a range of 64 - 51,200.

Not true. Minimum ISO on the Z6 is 100.

That's one stop extra.

Usually if a camera is given a higher ISO range, then it's usually because it has better high ISO noise performance.

Oh, sure:

Loading…

en.wikipedia.org

Jim

 

[AwesomeIan]

But you must have had some reason to say that the Z6 is the one if you want low noise. What was it?

Jim

I imagine he is going on the old notion that fewer larger pixels produce less image noise, whereas in fact it is largely a function of the light collecting area of the whole sensor.

(But I don't need to tell you that )

The Z7 has a ISO range of 64 - 25,600.

The Z6 has a range of 64 - 51,200.

Not true. Minimum ISO on the Z6 is 100.

That's one stop extra.

Usually if a camera is given a higher ISO range, then it's usually because it has better high ISO noise performance.

Oh, sure:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Up_to_eleven

Jim

Funny video. I think you get his point though (even if he is wrong). Say you have a camera that tops at 6400. Generally speaking it will perform worse at 6400 than a camera that goes all the way to 51,200 when it is shot at 6400.

At the end of the day I think the question he should have asked is:

how well does the Z6/Z7 perform at ISO used in astrophotgraphy (i.e.1600-6400)?

 

[JimKasson]

But you must have had some reason to say that the Z6 is the one if you want low noise. What was it?

Jim

I imagine he is going on the old notion that fewer larger pixels produce less image noise, whereas in fact it is largely a function of the light collecting area of the whole sensor.

(But I don't need to tell you that )

The Z7 has a ISO range of 64 - 25,600.

The Z6 has a range of 64 - 51,200.

Not true. Minimum ISO on the Z6 is 100.

That's one stop extra.

Usually if a camera is given a higher ISO range, then it's usually because it has better high ISO noise performance.

Oh, sure:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Up_to_eleven

Jim

Funny video. I think you get his point though (even if he is wrong). Say you have a camera that tops at 6400. Generally speaking it will perform worse at 6400 than a camera that goes all the way to 51,200 when it is shot at 6400.

I have found only tenuous relationships between max ISO settings and high-ISO PDR.

At the end of the day I think the question he should have asked is:

how well does the Z6/Z7 perform at ISO used in astrophotgraphy (i.e.1600-6400)?

We can say that, modulo what we don't know about the spatial filtering, that the Z7 should perform about as well as the D850, which is excellent.

As to the Z6, AFAIK, the jury is still out on that one. If someone will send me a set of dark frames (PM me for instructions), I will perform a RN analysis. I don't think we even know if the Z6 uses DR-Pix, although I'm betting that it does, like the a7III, which is its closest competitor.

Jim

 

[kiwi2]

I have found only tenuous relationships between max ISO settings and high-ISO PDR.

Maybe not when just picking totally random different cameras. But in the same model line, giving a camera a higher ISO usually signifies it has better ISO noise performance.

 

[JimKasson]

I have found only tenuous relationships between max ISO settings and high-ISO PDR.

Maybe not when just picking totally random different cameras. But in the same model line, giving a camera a higher ISO usually signifies it has better ISO noise performance.

There are so many ways to get actual data, like Bill Claff's excellent website, so why pay attention to a parameter that is at the whim of whoever happens to be the product manager for the camera?

Look at the D5 and the D4, for example.

Loading…

www.photonstophotos.net

Are the D5's nosebleed ISO settings indicative of increased PDR? They are not. There is a much smaller increase than the ISO extension would indicate.

Or look at the D4 and D4s. ISO jump, but any significant PDR improvement?

Loading…

www.photonstophotos.net

Jim

 

[Dan_168]

1) Sensor performance - optimized toward low-light, low-noise ISOless performance?

I have not seen any Astro sample, but if the sensor of the Z7 is similar to D850 I have, I would say it will be a good performer.

2) Lens selection - adequate or not?

-- don' t give a hoot about autofocus
-- sharp corners without COMA
-- minimal vignetting

At the moment definitely not adequate, there is really no fast wide Z lens at all, but you can use the adapter, and any existing Nikon mount lens can be used on the Z camera, Sigma 14/1.8 for example is the GREAT lens for that, i have been using that lens both my my *50 and A7R II and it became my default milky Way lens, sold the 14-24G and Batis 18 and never missed them for a second.

 

[coudet]

I have found only tenuous relationships between max ISO settings and high-ISO PDR.

Maybe not when just picking totally random different cameras. But in the same model line, giving a camera a higher ISO usually signifies it has better ISO noise performance.

There are so many ways to get actual data, like Bill Claff's excellent website, so why pay attention to a parameter that is at the whim of whoever happens to be the product manager for the camera?

Look at the D5 and the D4, for example.

http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Nikon D4,Nikon D5

Specifically between D5 and D4, we do get a clear difference in low light + high ISO situation: expensive cameras @ high ISO.

I do agree with the general point, about the max ISO setting.

 

[Astrophotographer 10]

I have found only tenuous relationships between max ISO settings and high-ISO PDR.

Maybe not when just picking totally random different cameras. But in the same model line, giving a camera a higher ISO usually signifies it has better ISO noise performance.

There are so many ways to get actual data, like Bill Claff's excellent website, so why pay attention to a parameter that is at the whim of whoever happens to be the product manager for the camera?

Look at the D5 and the D4, for example.

http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Nikon D4,Nikon D5

Are the D5's nosebleed ISO settings indicative of increased PDR? They are not. There is a much smaller increase than the ISO extension would indicate.

Or look at the D4 and D4s. ISO jump, but any significant PDR improvement?

http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Nikon D4,Nikon D4S

Jim

Although to be fair these sensors are pretty much the same as the A7iii and the A7r3 sensors. The Nikon design elements are unlikely to be that major.

The A7iii currently has the lowest high ISO noise for nightscapes. So if the Z6 is mostly that sensor then it should be good. Plus Nikon does not use a harsh star eater filter (fixed years ago now) plus it has built in intervalometer and time lapse (lets hope the battery is good enough though to use it).

Nikon noise grain seems better than Sony's which tends to be a bit wormy. Nikons is more filmlike. I noticed this when I went from a D800e to a Sony A7r. Same sensor but the Nikon was nicer but a lot heavier.

Greg.

Greg.

 

[Cliff Fujii]

1) Sensor performance - optimized toward low-light, low-noise ISOless performance?

Sounds like the Z6 if you're interested in low noise.

Do you have information that indicates that the Z6 has better photographic dynamic range corrected for resolution than the Z7?

Or are you talking about RN? Do you have RN information for the Z6? I'd be interested.

Jim

Like most people, right now, I get my information from reading Nikon's brochures. It looks like the Z6 will not be shipping until Nov. For me, if I wanted to stay with 24MP, I would keep my X-H1 but I want the larger sensor so I preordered the Z7. Now I can finally sell my D810 and Df. I have some non-AI lenses but they are in my Nikon museum (cameras I have owned since the 60's). I'm hoping that Nikon has taken a lesson from the One series and I hope they don't make the same mistakes again.

But you must have had some reason to say that the Z6 is the one if you want low noise. What was it?

Jim

 

[kiwi2]

I have found only tenuous relationships between max ISO settings and high-ISO PDR.

Maybe not when just picking totally random different cameras. But in the same model line, giving a camera a higher ISO usually signifies it has better ISO noise performance.

So it does look like the Z6 has the better high ISO noise performance. I would say there's about 1/2 stop in it.

 

[AstigmaticOwl]

1) Sensor performance - optimized toward low-light, low-noise ISOless performance?

Sounds like the Z6 if you're interested in low noise.

NUFF SAID

2) Lens selection - adequate or not?

I would connect my Z7 directly to my Celestron C9 1.4 SCT.

So far it sounds like the Z series handle like a D850 so most of the reviewers said that it felt like a Nikon

It appears that the GP-1 is not compatible with the Z series. Maybe Nikon will come out with a GPS accessory like they did for the 1Nikon cameras.

Not so. Nikon GP-1 works fine on the Z7. The GP-1 came with 2 cables, one 10-pin that works on the D500, D850, etc., and another that works on the D80, D7000, D600, D750 and the like.

5) Funny Business -

SONY Star-Eater business was/is a horror show for me.

Keep in mind that Nikon had a similar problem with the d800 or something similar. I am told they recognized the problem and fixed it. Will Nikon remember the past for Z cameras.

Nikon has a good reputation for fixing design flaws especially those that are caused by a mis-design that is their fault.