Two weeks with the SX720: some questions (photo n00b)

[Wugzz]

So I've had this camera for a couple of weeks now, and even though I don't know much about photography (bought it primarily for compact hiking/scenery/wildlife point-zoom-n-shoot) I came to the conclusion that the AUTO mode doesn't bring the best out of that camera, even in bright conditions.

This is a bit of a surprise because in most reviews and comments I've read (sx720 & sx730) AUTO is regarded as good/right enough to be used is most situations.

Not for me, I've discarded it completely after only a couple of days. My first concern has been the noise which is often visible even shooting outside a clear day, looking at the info it seems AUTO is way too prompt to increase the ISO sensitivity, which often ends up a nudge or two too high.

First thing I did while I wasn't yet familiar with the various modes and what X or Y do, was force lower ISO in P mode (80~400) and from there it took me only another day or two to realize every picture looks better at 80~100 anyway.

Second issue I sought to correct is the wrong brighness or contrast which also only rarely fell right in AUTO, most pictures ending up slightly too bright in broad daylight, and completely unbalanced when shooting the Moon for instance (side facing the sun way overbright not at all compensated by the camera)

I went and tried Tv, Av, M modes;

• M : too complicated for me yet
• Av : mmh...not sure what to expect here but I couldn't get any right shots with it
• Tv : that one did it. with ISO prior set to 80, then controlling the shutter speed I've managed to get closer to the kind of pictures I want: least possible noise and control of the brighness in most conditions I've faced so far (clear day and Moon shots)

(Hybrid: tried it but although it lets me control the brighness, the noise issues were the same as with AUTO)

So here's my question(s): am I doing it wrong?

From the few intros to photography I've read (please excuse the noobness) as far as I got it seems controlling the aperture should be the right way to control the brightness, but it didn't work for me at least not in Av mode, and I was completely lost in M anyway.

Or are the rules different in my case because I'm forcing 80 ISO most of the time?

Should I focus on learning to shoot while controlling aperture instead, and would that help me get actually better quality shots, more detailed while retaining the low noise and controlled brighness I want?

Is M mode the only way?

And while I'm here; should I worry about manual focus?

Should I disable the stabilizer? idk if it even affects quality (I shoot long distance subjects a lot but still waiting for delivery of my tripod)

I'm investigating how to get the very best out of that little camera, which let's be honest at first I found no better than a smartphone with a big zoom, then discovered is actually better than most but ONLY if you take control.

Below is an example of typical AUTO vs. what I can get using Tv mode @ 80 ISO:

(Sorry I've tried using My Gallery but for some reason the uploads either stop or get stuck in 'processing')

(edit: fixed. now proper from gallery)

 

[saaber1]

You are doing the right thing by asking questions to learn how to use the camera. A couple points to start:

1) The sx730 is probably the most forgiving camera I have ever used. I wouldn't have thought it possible to handhold the camera, simply zoom in, point at a bald eagle 500' away and get very usable photos. The same holds true for targets many 1000's of feet away.

2) I never use any camera in auto mode (except Iphone, which I only use to document something I want to remember). Why let the camera guess at what you want in focus f.e. when you can easily tell it exactly what you want in focus by putting the little red box on the target?

Now in terms of your situation, I would keep it simple:

a) put camera in M mode unless shooting video.

b) Put on widest aperture at whatever focal length (zoom) you are using and leave it there. Widest means the smallest f number.

c) put IS0 on 80 - 200 if possible, or max of 800 if you need to. Make sure auto-iso is off.

d) Adjust shutter speed so that the exposure shown on the LCD is what you want (f.e. is the face bright enough in the photo but not too bright). Make sure the little exposure slider (shown below) is visible on the LCD. When the slider is on "0" that means it is at what the camera thinks is middle exposure for that scene. You can make it lighter or darker by changing shutter speed (it doesn't have to be at "0", that is just a guide for you and a starting place from which you can make it higher or lower as needed). You'll find that most of the time "0" is very close what you want. Then fire away.

If you find that the exposure at "0" is always way off then you can change from "evaluative" metering to "center weighted" or "spot". That will reduce the area for what the camera calculates as "0". But most likely you won't have to mess with that and it might be confusing at first. Just pick one for now such as "center weighted" or "evaluative" and adjust shutter speed as suggested above.



Now of course this is a simplification and there are nuances to the above for various situations. For example if you are shooting a moving subject, you need a faster shutter speed such as 1/500, 1/1200 etc.

Study the "exposure triangle" to see how aperture, shutter speed, and ISO affect each other.

As far as AF, I turn servo on, small box for focus point, turn off "continuous".

Here are some SX730 examples of the type of photos you can get effortlessly once you understand how to use cameras a bit more. These are all handheld, literally point and shoot efforts (except the Jupiter shot where I used manual focus and a tripod).


Handheld 960mm equiv.


handheld 960mm Equiv.


Jupiter with 4 moons 960mm equiv. tripod mounted

View attachment 1906326

View attachment 1906327
Dandelion, at widest angle (24mm)

More at:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4290302

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4287147

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4273742

 

[reyalp]

First thing I did while I wasn't yet familiar with the various modes and what X or Y do, was force lower ISO in P mode (80~400) and from there it took me only another day or two to realize every picture looks better at 80~100 anyway.

P mode with manual ISO control is a good choice.

Second issue I sought to correct is the wrong brighness or contrast which also only rarely fell right in AUTO, most pictures ending up slightly too bright in broad daylight,

You can adjust the overall exposure in P mode by clicking +/- (up) button and then using the wheel.

When you half press, the camera shows the exposure settings it would use. This could help you understand where to start in M mode when you need it.

I went and tried Tv, Av, M modes;

• M : too complicated for me yet
• Av : mmh...not sure what to expect here but I couldn't get any right shots with it
• Tv : that one did it. with ISO prior set to 80, then controlling the shutter speed I've managed to get closer to the kind of pictures I want: least possible noise and control of the brighness in most conditions I've faced so far (clear day and Moon shots)\

For the moon at night, Tv or M is a better choice. As you've noticed, the cameras tend to over-expose due to the very dark sky. For hand held shots at max zoom, you probably want a shutter speed higher than 1/120th. 1/160th or more will be better. If you use M, just set the aperture to the widest value. Tv will do this automatically.

And while I'm here; should I worry about manual focus?

Only if camera AF isn't working well for you. You can also use AF lock: Hold the shutter in half press, and click the focus mode (left) button. The camera will switch to MF mode, with the focus set to the distance where it autofocused. This lets you focus on something and then compose your shot, or fine tune.

If you set "AF Frame" to center, you can pick exactly what you want the camera to focus on.

Two options that can help you use MF are "Focus peaking" and "MF-point zoom".

Focus peaking outlines edges of things that are in focus. MF point zoom magnifies part of the screen. While in MF mode, you can use the "info" button to change the point zoom level.

Should I disable the stabilizer? idk if it even affects quality (I shoot long distance subjects a lot but still waiting for delivery of my tripod)

You should generally leave the stabilizer (IS) on, except maybe when you are using a tripod. At long zoom, handheld shots without IS require extremely high shutter speeds to get good results. Using IS does not normally have a negative impact on image quality.

If you are using a tripod at long zoom, you should use the timer so the camera has time to settle from the button press, or use the app to shoot. At max zoom without IS, it can take several seconds for the effects of a shutter press to settle out.

 

[PhotoRaw]

I like the SX720HS. I would like to get one.

Can it shoot DNG/RAW and run scripts?

 

[CMCM]

The OP has the SX720....is there any major difference between the SX720 and the SX730 which you have??

 

[reyalp]

I like the SX720HS. I would like to get one.

Can it shoot DNG/RAW and run scripts?

CHDK doesn't currently support SX720HS. Some development was done, but the person working on it ran into problems and stopped. CHDK tools and digic 6 support have improved a lot since then, so it could probably be finished if by a motivated developer who had the camera.

The SX710HS is supported. AFAIK the main difference 30x (25–750mm) zoom rather than 40x (24–960mm) so you might consider that as an alternative if you find one cheap. They were ~$130 on Canon refurb, but aren't listed at the moment.

 

[saaber1]

The OP has the SX720....is there any major difference between the SX720 and the SX730 which you have??

My understanding of the differences are that sx730 added:

1. Flippable screen

2. Mode dial moved to top and thumbgrip added on back more like g series cameras



3. Some bluetooth stuff

sx730 is slightly thicker due to flip screen

 

[PhotoRaw]

@reyalp, thanks for the information.

The SX720HS looks like a great camera. Too bad it doesn't shoot DNG yet.

 

[Wugzz]

@saaber1 & reyalp: thanks a lot your advice is great help.

Before making a long reply I'm taking some days to experience the camera with what I've learned from you guys.

Until then just two additional questions :

1. do you use 'super fine' jpeg treatment? for me it didn't seem to make a notable difference but I haven't looked much into it anyway (only about 10 shots with it). I wonder if it's beneficial or if it messes with the contrast, creates halos around edges etc, that sort of stuff. Because reviews barely explore this and if it's anything like the kind of simple and non-adjustable sharpening options you find in the realm of cheap video, then it's either good and can be used a lot, or bad and banned forever.

2. is WiFi on all the time or off? or just asleep until you press the sharing button? it's a bit confusing because I remember seeing the signal bars appear on the screen sometimes (most times not tho) apparently there is no proper on/off switch for it in the menus. Tbh so far I have been using USB only.

@PhotoRaw: I got the Canon because I prioritized out-of-camera jpegs quality. the equivalent Panasonic super-zoom compact cameras apparently have worse jpegs, but can shoot RAW (and come with fancy stuff like touchscreen, a small viewfinder, etc)

 

[reyalp]

1. do you use 'super fine' jpeg treatment? for me it didn't seem to make a notable difference but I haven't looked much into it anyway (only about 10 shots with it).

This option controls the jpeg compression level, so superfine shouldn't have any negative impact on quality, it just produces larger files and perhaps slightly slower shooting speeds. The difference will be most visible in scenes with a lot of fine details.

It shouldn't affect sharpening and contrast, you can control those separately using the "My colors" options.

I generally use CHDK DNG on my SX710, but I would use the highest jpeg quality if shooting jpeg.

 

[saaber1]

...

2. is WiFi on all the time or off? or just asleep until you press the sharing button? it's a bit confusing because I remember seeing the signal bars appear on the screen sometimes (most times not tho) apparently there is no proper on/off switch for it in the menus. Tbh so far I have been using USB only.

I transfer files to the computer the same way for any camera I use. Remove sd card from camera, insert in computer or card reader (if needed). Move all files to hard drive. Put card back into camera and immediately reformat the card. Then you have a clean card ready to go for next shoot. Also fast transfer, no drain to battery, no cables, and no messing with wireless.

 

[Wugzz]

Necro! so it's been a year now and as you could read in the other thread, well, it didn't go too well for me.

The advice you guys gave in this thread was very helpful of course, but I'll try to explain what somehow ruined the experience for me.

Essentially ? the auto light metering and all that depends on the button half/full-pressure.

1. Battling the automatic light metering:

- it is always active changing the exposure constantly and rapidly no matter if evaluative, centered or point, even a heartbeat, shiver, breath, will ruin the balance you wanted and achieved by tuning the tiny wheel and buttons while trembling and sweating more with each new shot. I use P mode most of the time because it is much less hassle to try and adjust exposure with a single wheel control, compared to M where you deal with double the tiny button and wheel work since the metering won't stop messing your settings anyway. Also P unlike M seems to pick the best possible aperture by itself without you having to correct manually every five seconds or so.

I wish I had a way to stop that auto light metering completely, but I haven't found one (or see conclusion)

2. The halfway/full-pressure button system influencing exposure, focus and stability, all at the same time within a split second:

- that, is the biggest issue, so many things depend on it I just can't believe how terrible design it is. No matter how carefully I press I can see the exposure go off and, then when I press the second half to finalize, in that feverish moment the focus and stability as well become a mystery. The screen/shutter goes black. It is done. But the result will be a surprise, because whatever look, position and focus I was already having all the pain in the world maintaining with increasing trembling and sweat with each shot, will likely be wiped out when I press that second half anyway.

So I've managed to kill the half-pressure, by switching not the mode but just the focus mode to manual, and disabling the safety AF in the menus. But of course I lose the AF ability, so I can either use only the manual but the controls and display are again small so manual focus is not easy at all. The features here to assist like the magnifier and color outlines don't help me in the least. Or I can lock it to infinite and rely on the zoom, but there the results are too random.

I've tried Servo AF and different related settings but none did it for me.

My conclusion, which I believe should apply to the SX720/SX730/SX740, after having experienced the camera in two radically different situations, hand-held, and tripod/timer/remote:

Well, the success ratio (picture looking like I expected with the best IQ) is overwhelmingly superior in the second case situation, either using a tripod and timer, or the smartphone remote functions with the Canon app, this is the only way to fully tame that camera and have it shoot the pictures you want and likely the best it can achieve. The Canon app isn't very good though, main issues are no rotation so the live view is too small, and using it draws so much battery both the camera's and the phone's that it can only be used for a relatively small amount of time.

Comparatively the results in exclusively hand-held situations are like I said recently in the other thread, even being careful it's like only 1/10 photos are worthy or close to the camera's best, so my opinion in that area is radically different from saaber1's, for me that camera can take very good photos, but it rarely gives its best just walking around and shooting hand-held.

I am definitely not a photographer not even a decently experienced amateur, but having spent a year with that camera I feel that I've seen most of it, not ALL of it, as I've probably missed several subtleties, but my point is that if it takes more skill than that or some kind of secret sorcery to bring out its real hidden potential, then it is not really worth the trouble and money, most people will be happier with what the current best photo-centric smartphones achieve as point-and-shoots, even though those can barely zoom in. I love a long zoom for travel and hiking and that's the point of those compact superzooms, but you have to see beyond the compactness of the device itself and think about the amount of attention it will require from you, and weigh if the quality it actually achieves while used only casually is worth half if not more the price of a good photophone.

I imagine the ideal compact point-zoom-and-shoot not necessarily having a massive premium sensor or lens, but before everything reliable stable controls you can trust. if I was asked how I'd like the ideal one, I'd say I don't need a LCD display but a large clear viewfinder, and manual physical direct controls for all the essentials to compose the picture, and rather than fancy auto-driven assist and creative features, just clear essential and precise info at all times along with a fully implemented users profiles system.

EDIT: alternatively if a great good viewfinder is out of the question for cost concerns, then a much bigger and refined LCD, and the option of simple remote shooting (like a BlueTooth, infrared or whatever key chain remote shutter, then you bring a micro-tripod of goriallapod whatever) that would be 100 times better than any smartphone app.

Final word: seems like if you want GOOD pocket photography on-the-go, then have a serious face-to-leather talk with your wallet, save longer instead of spending on entry~ish cameras.

(notice: at the cost of redundancy I want to make clear at this point reminding the reader that I still think a 1/2.3 compact superzoom like the Canaon SX7** or equivalents in the segment can take better photos than even a good smartphone, considering even the huge zoom, but that slightly superior quality is NOT easily achieved, and NOT by anyone)

PS: I have some questions in regards to White Balance and My Colors, but this rant post is already too long so that'll be for later.

 

[saaber1]

Just use M mode as explained in the post higher up in this thread. Metering/exposure will not change at all in M mode. You set it and can see in real time on the LCD what the exposure will look like. Note: make sure auto ISO is off and uu are using single box AF point (smaller box is better than wide).

Shutter button should be for choosing autofocus point only and shutter release, not for exposure.

To simplify (for any point and shoots really), you have two options: 1) use some form of "auto" mode and then you have to try to "trick" the camera into giving you the picture you want. This is a poor option IMO. Or 2) use M mode, where you can easily choose what you want. In M mode you choose ISO (choose lowest ISO for outdoors bright light and a bit higher for lower light -generally u only have to do it once for a given lighting situation), choose aperture (in most cases when you are zoomed in there is no real "choice" as you are shooting at the fastest aperture), then choose shutter speed until the image on the LCD looks how you want it (with the slider as a visual guide as explained in above posts).

In auto mode if you point at a hard-to-expose-correctly scene like the one shown below, it might expose for the sky, causing the foreground to be almost black. Or it might expose for the foreground, causing the sky to be blown out and zero sun rays would be visible. So you have to use auto exposure lock and choose an area that is "middle grey" and hold that exposure (via AE lock) as you recompose, then choose the AF point with the shutter button (use AF lock if needed) and recompose if needed and take the shot. In the example below as I recall I had to use exactly this "trick the auto" method to get that shot with a Canon SD800 (that camera had no true M mode). And I have both overexposed and underexposed shots of the same scene as I tried to trick the camera into giving me the right exposure via trial and error.

Instead of spending all that time and energy trying to trick the AUTO to giving you what you want, with the sx730 you can simply use M mode and change the shutter speed until the perfect exposure is shown on the screen. half press shutter to lock AF point and you are done. Fast, simple, and nearly perfect every time.

 

[rvdzee]

I have no problem using P mode with center AF. If I don't like the light metering, I point to somewhere in the same focal plane with a different brightness until I like the picture on the screen. Then half-press, recompose and take the picture. Maybe it's because I've been doing this for ages, but this usually works fine for static scenes.

 

[rvdzee]

I have no problem using P mode with center AF. If I don't like the light metering, I point to somewhere in the same focal plane with a different brightness until I like the picture on the screen. Then half-press, recompose and take the picture. Maybe it's because I've been doing this for ages, but this usually works fine for static scenes.

Like in the picture above. It's focused at infinity, so you can move the camera with the center point AF at any point in the background until you like the brightness. Then half-press, recompose and you're done.

 

[digitallollygag]

I’ve never owned the SX720HS, but I can relate to the “conversation with the wallet” part when contemplating a point and shoot camera purchase. I recently gave up a G9XII. Though it has a restricted zoom range, it’s image quality is markedly better than the SX720HS. In the end, this “low-end premium” G9XII camera (is that a contradiction?) got in the way of itself for advanced shooting beyond “full-auto” mode. It made more sense to shoot full-auto in jpeg than let the camera get in the way. Just not the same wonderful user experience as my beloved S95 was. My two-lens mid-range Android phone gets “fairly” close in IQ to the G9XII without the clumsy point and shoot experience. Keeping the phone, already off-loaded the G9XII.

I did test drive the SX720HS at Sam’s Club awhile back. I really liked the user-interface on that camera. Much better than the G9XII. I should not have to run to the user manual to find out what the “*” icon means as I did with the G9XII. (Okay I admit I’m more familiar with the Nikons and Pentax cameras).