What metadata should be disclosed before sending photos to a client?

[grsnovi]

IdanShmu wrote (in part):

...Recently I hired a photographer to shot a family event.

How was your contract written?

Information such as: Data taken, Geolocation are mandatory...

Mandatory?

Am I being reasonable or out of line?

The old adage about: "Never assume..." seems to be important here.

It would seem that had you contracted for prints only, there would have been no meta-data. What format was specified? It would seem that some effort had to be expended to strip the meta-data prior to supplying files to you. Once you asked for the files with the data - were they supplied?

 

[IdanShmu]

You were at the event, you know when and where the photos were taken.

Geo tagging for an event he was present at also seems odd. Did he not know where he was?

It is unclear to me what is the purpose of those statements.

I, the human, know these details. But my PC doesn't. It needs to to read this information from the photo itself. This is the basis of my query,

It seems like you keep trying to force the narrative of "client don't need metadata" rather than simply argue what is the big deal to kindly providing it.

Either way, we both made our point clear and I appreciate that productive discussion.

 

[IdanShmu]

IdanShmu wrote (in part):

...Recently I hired a photographer to shot a family event.

How was your contract written?

No contract. Was a causal/spontaneous interaction.

Information such as: Data taken, Geolocation are mandatory...

Mandatory?

I meant that this information is important and basic and I can't think of reason to conceal it.

Once you asked for the files with the data - were they supplied?

Actually, I've never ask for the files with the metadata. I didn't want to cause any trouble because that would require him to prepare and upload all the data again.

I just sent him an email stating that, for future reference, some clients, like me, need this information and if he doesn't object he should disclose it.
I haven't heard back yet. I am happy either way.

Anyway, everything is in good terms and there are NO hard feelings.
It is just that this interaction made me question the legitimacy of my needs so I'm trying to get the community's opinion on the matter,

 

[photolando]

You were at the event, you know when and where the photos were taken.

Aperture and focal length? Other than curiosity as a photographer how could that information help you in any way?

I just shot an event last night. The photos have already been supplied to the customer, there is no metadata in any of the photos. I've never had any customer ask for any information about camera type, aperture, focal length, etc...

They do require images of the event.

appreciate the response. However, I'm struggling to find an insight to my queries.

I understand you question my needs for a metadata and that is fine.
But, I don't think it is relevant. As long as I, the client, see a value in this information, my question still remains:

Do you, as a photographer have a valid reason to conceal the information in question?

It is relevant if you want to convince me or any photographer why you want the information.

When we paid for the cupcakes and wedding cake for our daughters wedding we did not require the ingredients or oven temperature. We required tasty treats that the contract called for.

I'm not concealing anything, I'm providing my customer with the images they contracted for. Knowings the focal length or aperture is not required for them to receive and use the photos.

How is knowing the focal length useful to you for photos you did not take? Answering that question would be helpful to know what that information may be worth.

I have to agree.

The only people so concerned with "metadata" is just other photographers. It's kind of like when a father of the bride, or whoever hires a wedding photographer and they are also photographers, they seem to want the actual raw (and I do mean raw) images. No other "regular" client ever requests this. They want good images from their wedding or event.

I personally don't turn off any of my metadata or go to any great lengths to conceal it. If they want to look at it, that's fine with me. But it's really of no concern. Unless, like I posted above, I am shooting for a photographer or studio and if something comes into question as to why an image might not be right, this will help them or the photographer figure out why. But just a regular client who needs my services as a photographer? I don't see any reason why they need it not have I ever had a client specifically ask for it.

 

[DenWil]

Not sure I'm in the right forum but I couldn't find a better suited one.

Recently I hired a photographer to shot a family event.

When I reviewed the photos, I noticed that the metadata is empty. Nothing but a copy write information.

I've sent him an email stating that metadata is important when one uses automatic tools to review and categorize photos / albums.

Information such as: Data taken, Geolocation are mandatory and information such as aperture, focal length, etc. are useful as well.

Am I being reasonable or out of line?

What is the “standard” one this matter? What information should the photographer disclose, if any, and why?

I have provided images to clients for decades and never included any of the info you list.

At least where the date /location info is concerned, the clients know when and where the shots were taken- they were there.

If it is important to you, arrange to include whatever you like in the contract.

I have never once been asked. I can look at one of my images and know the shooting info and where it was taken -even the approximate time of day, but I don't write it down. It is not particularly relevant quite honestly.

 

[Bob Janes]

You were at the event, you know when and where the photos were taken.

Geo tagging for an event he was present at also seems odd. Did he not know where he was?

It is unclear to me what is the purpose of those statements.

I, the human, know these details. But my PC doesn't. It needs to to read this information from the photo itself. This is the basis of my query,

It seems like you keep trying to force the narrative of "client don't need metadata" rather than simply argue what is the big deal to kindly providing it.

Either way, we both made our point clear and I appreciate that productive discussion.

Do you have a created or modified date/time on the file?

Just thinking of ways you could get on without the EXIF info...

 

[cormierphoto]

It's not in bad taste but why you need the information is a curiosity.

Fair. Let's look at Lightroom's metadata filters:


Lightroom's metadata filters view

I find it very useful and use it constantly. Because:

• "aperture filters might be useful for short-listing pictures shot at the widest lens aperture and therefore with the shallowest depth of field"
• "focal length filters might be useful for short-listing pictures shot at the widest angle"

I assume that Adobe implemented this feature on demand and I'm not the only user who find those filters useful.

If a client finds this useful and there is no harm for the photographer then why not providing a more-complete service?

The final product is not always the only valuable thing. Sometimes, I enjoy a movie bloopers just as much as the movies itself

That metadata filter in Lightroom is good for applying a preset for specific group of photos when working from a RAW file (i.e. noise reduction on images above ISO 800). It's useful as a photographer when working with the product.

I don't see what use the EXIF metadata for the shot would be to a client. Would you be loading the shots in Lightroom to separate your family photos by focal length? Do you need to know that a specific shot with your child in it was done at f/2 at 1/200 shutter speed? I never keep that data in the finished product, I keep keywords, copyright info and add a person's name if I have it. Separating pictures of both you and your wife sounds more logical than separating shots with 1/100 or 1/500 shutter speed.

In any case, we can argue whether or not this should be included, it's up to the photographer who did your photos. I personally would find a client asking for EXIF data for family photos weird but would just add it if asked as it's a trivial thing.

 

[Levantinian]

...Photography is basically a service industry and any reasonable request by the client who is purchasing the service should be supplied.

Of course. But all "meta-data" is not equal.

The client might want to learn about photography by knowing what focal length, sensitivity, exposure, flash mode and/or some other specific camera setting was used for a specific image. If it was contracted to supply this data, it should be delivered. If contracted, I would certainly do so.

On the other hand, I would never deliver an image with my camera serial number baked into it. Or any number of other items, some of which I might even not know about. Which is why I would never deliver the exact file that came out of camera. Very few professionals, I suspect, would do so.

It is, in my opinion, completely erroneous to use term "concealing", when talking about cleaning up the irrelevant or detrimental junk from the image file.

 

[RDKirk]

Not sure I'm in the right forum but I couldn't find a better suited one.

Recently I hired a photographer to shot a family event.

When I reviewed the photos, I noticed that the metadata is empty. Nothing but a copy write information.

I've sent him an email stating that metadata is important when one uses automatic tools to review and categorize photos / albums.

Information such as: Data taken, Geolocation are mandatory and information such as aperture, focal length, etc. are useful as well.

Am I being reasonable or out of line?

What is the “standard” one this matter? What information should the photographer disclose, if any, and why?

If there is any "standard," it's probably to automatically strip out metadata and include specific identifying information such as authorship and copyright.

If you want some data remaining, you can specify to the photographer exactly which information you want. Many photographers will not be willing to include everything, because there is information particular to them (such as camera serial number) that they may not want going out with every image.

So you're asking for a custom service, which the photographer has a right to charge extra to provide.

 

[Mark B.]

Not sure I'm in the right forum but I couldn't find a better suited one.

Recently I hired a photographer to shot a family event.

When I reviewed the photos, I noticed that the metadata is empty. Nothing but a copy write information.

I've sent him an email stating that metadata is important when one uses automatic tools to review and categorize photos / albums.

Information such as: Data taken, Geolocation are mandatory and information such as aperture, focal length, etc. are useful as well.

Am I being reasonable or out of line?

Probably not too common for geolocation to be saved in the metadata unless it's important to the photographer. Not all cameras have GPS, and for the ones that do it is a battery drain.

What is the “standard” one this matter? What information should the photographer disclose, if any, and why?

Whatever was previously agreed upon or discussed. All the camera & lens info, and camera settings should still be available but the photog may need to re-save the images with the info intact. If you needed something less common like the locations, that should have bee discussed prior to the shoot.

Mark

 

[Ellis Vener]

Not sure I'm in the right forum but I couldn't find a better suited one.

Recently I hired a photographer to shot a family event.

When I reviewed the photos, I noticed that the metadata is empty. Nothing but a copy write information.

Correction: it is spelled copyright, as in the right to make copies.

I've sent him an email stating that metadata is important when one uses automatic tools to review and categorize photos / albums.

Information such as: Data taken, Geolocation are mandatory and information such as aperture, focal length, etc. are useful as well.

Am I being reasonable or out of line?

What is the “standard” one this matter? What information should the photographer disclose, if any, and why?

It is quite possible that the photographer never added some of the IPTC metadata you are looking for., although the camera certainly writes EXIF metadata - date and camera function related metadata.
Many cameras do not automatically write geolocation metadata - none of the Canon and Nikon cameras I use do - and only for certain types of jobs do I add it during my processing and then only at the request of my clients.
I would politely ask (not demand) they deliver another set with the EXIF metadata they stripped out but I really can't see why it is important to you if you like the photos. Without knowing more about the job or the photographer I'd attribute the missing EXIF and IPTC metadata to either ignorance of how their software works rather than bad intentions. Never attribute to malignity what is more easily explained by simple human foolishness.

Surely you know where and when the photos were taken since you commissioned the job and can add that yourself.

This is the first discussion I can remember a discussion of what metadata should or should not be included when delivering to photos for a private portrait session.

--
Ellis Vener
To see my work please visit http://www.ellisvener.com
Or on instagram @therealellisv

 

[KWNJr]

You were at the event, you know when and where the photos were taken.

Aperture and focal length? Other than curiosity as a photographer how could that information help you in any way?

I just shot an event last night. The photos have already been supplied to the customer, there is no metadata in any of the photos. I've never had any customer ask for any information about camera type, aperture, focal length, etc...

They do require images of the event.

appreciate the response. However, I'm struggling to find an insight to my queries.

I understand you question my needs for a metadata and that is fine.
But, I don't think it is relevant. As long as I, the client, see a value in this information, my question still remains:

Do you, as a photographer have a valid reason to conceal the information in question?

Well, if you, the client, see value in it, you, as a client, should ask for it. Me, the photographer, see value in images, not information. So, me, the photographer, only does things that concern images for you, the client. If you, the client, see value in information regarding your, the client, photos, than maybe you should ask.

~MIR

Are not images, in the broadest sense, "information"?

 

[KWNJr]

Everyone seems to be ignoring something - if the client would like to have the metadata, what harm could there be to supply it. Everyone seems to be fixated on why they should not supply it.

It seems like this friendly discussion becomes a bit to personal and uneasy.
I'm not trying to convince anyone to delver their metadata or to get suggestions on how to ask my photographer for one.

I can see that some photographers take a bit of an offence regarding my request. I'm not trying to offend anyone. I just feel like answers like: "I will not provide a metadata because you don't need one" is not very respectful.

Is my request/question in such bad taste?

No.

If you really want the metadata you should specify it in the contract.

In may harm the photographer if the photographer had a certain technique they developed and did not want someone else to copy it.

A landscape photographer may not want to reveal the exact location they took a picture to avoid others trying t copy to image or having the location trampled into ruin by tourists.

If you buy ALL RIGHTS you probably should get the metadata as well as the raw, to enable the buyer to fully utilize what they bought.

 

[Dan Marchant]

is what's written in the contract. If you didn't stipulate this requirement when the contract was formed then you have no legal right to demand it.

You can of course ask, he can of course refuse (or agree) and you can both negotiate a new agreement (which may involve an additional payment).