Won’t M50 doom current M5?

[mpressed]

gmcooper wrote: What would a version II of either the M5 or M6 offer to justify the name?

We won't know until it's fully determined "what's missing" from the M50.

A known is that the M50 doesn't have an exposure compensation dial. A M5/M6 Mark II could offer a better version of 4K, more comprehensive video features, and a better build quality, than the M50.

The new M5 II could be full frame. If not, then how they are going to name it?

Canon may indeed release a FF mirrorless body (or even a couple of them), but the M5 Mk II will still be an APS-C camera. There's simply no way Canon will leave such a huge hole in their lineup. There are still legions of (APS-C) DSLR owners yet to be converted.

R2

 

[mpressed]

Seems odd to me that Canon is releasing the M50 *before* an M5 upgrade (or some other model higher up the mirrorless food chain). I mean, will the M5 sell at all once the M50 is available? If the rumors are accurate, the M50 will be cheaper by a few hundred dollars, and yet will be better in most ways (TBD, I know). Makes me think that maybe a higher-end mirrorless (M5mII, a FF M1?) is not far out.

I don't think they have much choice - I believe the 4K pressure finally took a toll on Canon. I think this is more for Vloggers where the M5 is more photocentric.

That’s just it though; even as a “stills camera” it’s superior to the M5, if the rumored specs are accurate.

NO ITS NOT AT ALL

 

[RubberDials]

Seems odd to me that Canon is releasing the M50 *before* an M5 upgrade (or some other model higher up the mirrorless food chain). I mean, will the M5 sell at all once the M50 is available? If the rumors are accurate, the M50 will be cheaper by a few hundred dollars, and yet will be better in most ways (TBD, I know). Makes me think that maybe a higher-end mirrorless (M5mII, a FF M1?) is not far out.

It seems fairly simple in terms of strategy. The M50 adds 4K and has some feature cull to streamline it and bring it in at a lower price point. It happens all the time. Sony did something similar with a lot of its DSLRs in the early days.

The M5 inventory will be cleared out with price cuts.

Yes, it will have to be (hence the premise of my OP).

The aps-c mirrorless market is consumer driven. I wouldn't expect an 'M5 upgrade' if I was you.

Really? I think that’s exactly what most people *are* expecting, I sure am.

I see that, but the evidence doesn't suggest that to me. The M5/M50 reminds me a bit of what Sony did with the A6000 which replaced the NEX 6. Lower res viewfinder, plastic body but improved spec because it's a later model. The M5 is over-engineered for the market that Canon is targeting. If they were going more enthusiast/prosumer I think you would have seen more lenses and accessories released. The M system is very mature now.

 

[justmeMN]

Ed P wrote:.
I always thought that too, but have you seen the 4000D? A plastic lens mount? Talk about hurting your brand.

Perhaps that model is for so-called lesser developed countries that can't afford anything better.

 

[Ed P]

If I had an M5 I too would NOT “upgrade” to the M50. My point for this discussion is, how does Canon sell one more M5? And how long will we wait for its true replacement?

 

[mpressed]

Seems odd to me that Canon is releasing the M50 *before* an M5 upgrade (or some other model higher up the mirrorless food chain). I mean, will the M5 sell at all once the M50 is available? If the rumors are accurate, the M50 will be cheaper by a few hundred dollars, and yet will be better in most ways (TBD, I know). Makes me think that maybe a higher-end mirrorless (M5mII, a FF M1?) is not far out.

It seems fairly simple in terms of strategy. The M50 adds 4K and has some feature cull to streamline it and bring it in at a lower price point. It happens all the time. Sony did something similar with a lot of its DSLRs in the early days.

The M5 inventory will be cleared out with price cuts.

Yes, it will have to be (hence the premise of my OP).

but that is not the premise of your original post. the m50 will draw buyers that did not buy the M5 because they wanted 4K over better photo specs.

the m50 is not the reason canon will drop the m5 inventory down and likely eventually the price its the anticipated m5II that will be announced in the fall and released end of year exactly 2 years after the M5.

The aps-c mirrorless market is consumer driven. I wouldn't expect an 'M5 upgrade' if I was you.

Really? I think that’s exactly what most people *are* expecting, I sure am.

if canon finally starts to organize their m line to Mx Mxx with mk II and III in the mix along with their maintaining a parallel line without EVF then the MILC line will mirror the dslr line and open up the way for the M1 as FF or pro level.

mp

 

[Ed P]

Seems odd to me that Canon is releasing the M50 *before* an M5 upgrade (or some other model higher up the mirrorless food chain). I mean, will the M5 sell at all once the M50 is available? If the rumors are accurate, the M50 will be cheaper by a few hundred dollars, and yet will be better in most ways (TBD, I know). Makes me think that maybe a higher-end mirrorless (M5mII, a FF M1?) is not far out.

I don't think they have much choice - I believe the 4K pressure finally took a toll on Canon. I think this is more for Vloggers where the M5 is more photocentric.

That’s just it though; even as a “stills camera” it’s superior to the M5, if the rumored specs are accurate.

NO ITS NOT AT ALL

It’s not? Am I looking at the wrong info? Rumored I know (as I said), but:

4K

faster FPS

better focusing

new sensor (better high ISO performance?)

new CPU

new/compressed RAW

more AF points

improved EVF

silent mode

And whatever I’m forgetting. Granted, it may be crippled in other areas vs. the M5, but again, for hundreds less and all the new goodies, the current M5 makes little sense.

 

[mpressed]

If I had an M5 I too would NOT “upgrade” to the M50. My point for this discussion is, how does Canon sell one more M5? And how long will we wait for its true replacement?

M5 was fall 16 announce holiday 16 delivery.....

M5mkII fall 18 announcement Holiday 18 delivery.

M6 spring 17 announce summer 17 delivery

M6mkII spring 19 announce summer 19 delivery

holiday 18 or spring 19 delivery M1 or M1D FF or pro level MILC

mp

 

[mpressed]

Seems odd to me that Canon is releasing the M50 *before* an M5 upgrade (or some other model higher up the mirrorless food chain). I mean, will the M5 sell at all once the M50 is available? If the rumors are accurate, the M50 will be cheaper by a few hundred dollars, and yet will be better in most ways (TBD, I know). Makes me think that maybe a higher-end mirrorless (M5mII, a FF M1?) is not far out.

I don't think they have much choice - I believe the 4K pressure finally took a toll on Canon. I think this is more for Vloggers where the M5 is more photocentric.

That’s just it though; even as a “stills camera” it’s superior to the M5, if the rumored specs are accurate.

NO ITS NOT AT ALL

It’s not? Am I looking at the wrong info? Rumored I know (as I said), but:

4K

faster FPS

better focusing

new sensor (better high ISO performance?)

new CPU

new/compressed RAW

more AF points

improved EVF

silent mode

And whatever I’m forgetting. Granted, it may be crippled in other areas vs. the M5, but again, for hundreds less and all the new goodies, the current M5 makes little sense.

1) not uncommon for canon to test new tech in lower end cameras...

2) new tech does not always mean better just new. canon has to be able to invent tech for all levels of their cameras.. and in the past sometimes the new tech is easier to release in early stages without all features yet developed or available and secondary releases of same tech are often improved upon.

think how often in the dslr forums we see the words ...the new xxD has this why in the world doesn't my xD have that... only to have the next variant of the xD mkII to have the improved tech.

Also remember at this early stage of MILC things are playing out similar to DSLR releases back in 2005 area around the time of the 10D launch, when features offered in the 10D 20D 30D at times appeared better then the features offered in the 1D or 1Ds

mp

 

[Ed P]

Seems odd to me that Canon is releasing the M50 *before* an M5 upgrade (or some other model higher up the mirrorless food chain). I mean, will the M5 sell at all once the M50 is available? If the rumors are accurate, the M50 will be cheaper by a few hundred dollars, and yet will be better in most ways (TBD, I know). Makes me think that maybe a higher-end mirrorless (M5mII, a FF M1?) is not far out.

It seems fairly simple in terms of strategy. The M50 adds 4K and has some feature cull to streamline it and bring it in at a lower price point. It happens all the time. Sony did something similar with a lot of its DSLRs in the early days.

The M5 inventory will be cleared out with price cuts.

Yes, it will have to be (hence the premise of my OP).

but that is not the premise of your original post. the m50 will draw buyers that did not buy the M5 because they wanted 4K over better photo specs.

Trust me, it was, that’s what I meant by “doomed”. Sorry if I wasn’t clear. I do agree with your statement regarding the draw of 4K in the M50.

the m50 is not the reason canon will drop the m5 inventory down and likely eventually the price its the anticipated m5II that will be announced in the fall and released end of year exactly 2 years after the M5.

i do hope you’re right, but I also think the M50 will help drive the M5 out.

The aps-c mirrorless market is consumer driven. I wouldn't expect an 'M5 upgrade' if I was you.

Really? I think that’s exactly what most people *are* expecting, I sure am.

if canon finally starts to organize their m line to Mx Mxx with mk II and III in the mix along with their maintaining a parallel line without EVF then the MILC line will mirror the dslr line and open up the way for the M1 as FF or pro level.

That would be great. Let’s hope they don’t take too long.

mp

 

[Ed P]

OK, we’ll just have to agree that “superior” can have various definitions.

 

[justmeMN]

Ed P wrote: My point for this discussion is, how does Canon sell one more M5? And how long will we wait for its true replacement?

My guess is that Canon has already quit manufacturing the M5. They can slowly get rid of the leftovers thought discounting. If nothing else, they can pretend that new M5s are refurbished, and sell them at a deep discount that way.

The next big announcement event is Photokina is September. Perhaps they will announce a M5 Mark II then.

 

[Ed P]

If I had an M5 I too would NOT “upgrade” to the M50. My point for this discussion is, how does Canon sell one more M5? And how long will we wait for its true replacement?

M5 was fall 16 announce holiday 16 delivery.....

M5mkII fall 18 announcement Holiday 18 delivery.

M6 spring 17 announce summer 17 delivery

M6mkII spring 19 announce summer 19 delivery

holiday 18 or spring 19 delivery M1 or M1D FF or pro level MILC

mp

That’s a long time to not sell M5s.

 

[Ed P]

Ed P wrote: My point for this discussion is, how does Canon sell one more M5? And how long will we wait for its true replacement?

My guess is that Canon has already quit manufacturing the M5. They can slowly get rid of the leftovers thought discounting. If nothing else, they can pretend that new M5s are refurbished, and sell them at a deep discount that way.

The next big announcement event is Photokina is September. Perhaps they will announce a M5 Mark II then.

This makes sense. I will admit to impatiently hoping the M50 would “hurry along” the M5mII (or whatever). Woops, this is Canon we are talking about.

 

[mpressed]

Ed P wrote: My point for this discussion is, how does Canon sell one more M5? And how long will we wait for its true replacement?

My guess is that Canon has already quit manufacturing the M5. They can slowly get rid of the leftovers thought discounting. If nothing else, they can pretend that new M5s are refurbished, and sell them at a deep discount that way.

The next big announcement event is Photokina is September. Perhaps they will announce a M5 Mark II then.

This makes sense. I will admit to impatiently hoping the M50 would “hurry along” the M5mII (or whatever). Woops, this is Canon we are talking about.

had you not added in the whoops this is canon ending my response would have been...

you joined pr in 2009, so you have been here long enough to know canon has their own methodology and while it may include some of our hopes and thoughts it rarely operates on our desired time line.

mp

 

[MikeJ9116]

IMO, the situation with Canon and 4k video is the same as Canon and DR. They dragged their feet with on-chip ADC just like they have with 4k video. When they could no longer keep using poor DR sensors they ponied up and made the improvement. The same situation is here for 4k. They have ignored it for as long as possible and now feel they have to give this ability so as not to take a serious hit in market share. The same goes for AF ability in their MILC cameras. We had the M, then the M2 and the M3 before they got serious and gave us decent AF. The roll out of the M50 is Canon finally capitulating to the consumer demand for 4k and the desire to keep, or increase, their market share.

I think most of Canon's late response can be traced back to their delayed response to mirrorless as a whole. Sony, Fuji, Panasonic and Olympus put all their efforts in mirrorless because they didn't have a choice. Canon on the other hand wanted to see if the whole mirrorless thing was just a passing fad or something more serious. When Canon finally jumped into mirrorless they only had Powersot technology to start with.

On the other hand they knew someday 4K (or 6K, 8K) will become a common feature in consumer grade cameras. It is difficult to know why Canon dragged their feet this long. I think it's probably because of a combination of not having the technology to put 4K in a small body with good heat management and treating 4K as high end feature even when it was clearly not.

DR probably is the most debated issue in internet forums. Even to this day most don't care about it, don't use it or don't know how to use it properly. But it became an image issue (to some extent 4K is similar) for Canon. But it is difficult to say if DR was the only reason Canon moved to on chip ADC.

IMO, Canon's reputation is more important to them than anything else. It is what they use to dominate the market. Whenever they are put in a position that endangers their reputation they act quickly. It is funny in that they are paranoid about this but at the same time will run the risk of losing it by lagging behind in technology. I think they either must be suicidal or they know that at any time they can bust out features whenever needed to bring them back to relevance. If the latter is true then they have done a lot of R&D and know they have trump cards to play when needed. This would allow them to walk the line they do between profitability and production costs year after year.

I always thought that too, but have you seen the 4000D? A plastic lens mount? Talk about hurting your brand.

On an ultra low budget camera it probably doesn't make much of a difference. This is Canon walking that line I was referring to.

 

[crashpc]

I always thought that too, but have you seen the 4000D? A plastic lens mount? Talk about hurting your brand.

On an ultra low budget camera it probably doesn't make much of a difference. This is Canon walking that line I was referring to.

As I have more money on hand, it seems like viable possibility to me. Cheape camera you can buy and go into "war photography" while not caring. Just slap it in your bag/car and go. You´re done for $200 or so, later on. That´s awesome! It still wipes the floor with most compacts and phones easily in good hands. So, why not?

 

[crashpc]

Perhaps based on many posts on various sites like DPR, canon realizes that the M5 was successful at getting al the regular upgraders of the M line

It sure was...

that had the original M and the 2 or 3 or any combo of them to step up and buy the M5 because it finally had enough of the feature set and specs we all wanted in a MILC.

BUT, there were those that stayed away because of size and were NON EVF lovers, so out came the M6, and many of the original M,1&2 that didn't want an EVF and didn't buy the M5 hopped on and bought the M6.

Yes. I bought M6 for that reason. Now I might not be that sure if Well equipped M5 II or so, wouldn´t sway me back to viewfinder equipped model. Time will tell.

BUT again the biggest reason we read from those that didn't buy the M5 or M6 was lack of 4K video that the competition had. For many of us that did buy into the M5&6 video was not a deal breaker..

Yes, Not for me either. But still, Other companies deliver in more aspects than just video. That´s quite shame from "nr1 manufacturer".

AND lastly there were others that felt after the inexpensive early releases of M, M2 and M3 that the M5 and M6 were pricey...

I left, but found out, that grass is not really greener elsewhere, with better sensors.

So now M50 offers the Video that many wanted the lower price that some people complained about and the in exchange dropped some of the photo specs to allow for the 4K and price requests.

I believe it will be a hit, if it does good 4K.

I cannot agree on that with 24FPS and possibly high compression. We´ll see.

This also lines up the M5mkII and M5mkII to include all the features we have now, the possible added focusing features mentioned and 4K video and do so at a higher enthusiast/prosumer price point

EVRYONE HAS AN OPTION EVERYONE IS HAPPY CANON MAKES MONEY.

No, not me. No resolution and DR beast available. Don´t they not know, that there are people "on budget" doing macro photography, studio photography, reach photography, landscape photography and others, who would pay for APS-C class beast? I won´t pay $4500 for 5DS R.

How about $1200 for M5DS R with 36-42Mpx sensor? If they made 120Mpx APS-H loong long ago, this one should be clearly possible.

 

[MikeJ9116]

I always thought that too, but have you seen the 4000D? A plastic lens mount? Talk about hurting your brand.

On an ultra low budget camera it probably doesn't make much of a difference. This is Canon walking that line I was referring to.

As I have more money on hand, it seems like viable possibility to me. Cheape camera you can buy and go into "war photography" while not caring. Just slap it in your bag/car and go. You´re done for $200 or so, later on. That´s awesome! It still wipes the floor with most compacts and phones easily in good hands. So, why not?

Good point. I am sure Canon has thought this through and think there is not a downside to having a plastic mount on a very inexpensive camera. Plus, the plastic mount hasn't been an issue on lenses and I doubt it will be on these budget models. Especially since the lenses used on them for the most part will have plastic mounts. I don't see someone using a big, heavy L lens on these cameras very often if at all. Also, I bet there is a big manufacturing cost savings by having an ILC camera body come out of the injection molder with a nearly finished mount.

 

[MikeJ9116]

OK, we’ll just have to agree that “superior” can have various definitions.

If I were forced to choose between the M50 and M5 I would pick the M50. The additional external controls and likely some firmware features the it has over the M50 doesn't make up for all that new tech i+t has in it. Especially so considering it costs less.