What makes a mirrorless camera focus and track fast?

But the mk3 is a budget model . If you want pro features buy pro kit like the em1 mk2.
No argument. The point Im making is, hybrid cdaf pdaf should NOT be what differentiates a Pro model.

Fuji dont do it, sony dont do it.

Why are M43 hanging on to old sensors and adding pro features like IBIS? $$$$$$$$?

NO, give the people good fast focus as a standard and make things like IBIS, which to be fair even in DSLRs is a PRO feature, PDAF isnt.
 
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But the mk3 is a budget model . If you want pro features buy pro kit like the em1 mk2.
No argument. The point Im making is, hybrid cdaf pdaf should NOT be what differentiates a Pro model.

Fuji dont do it, sony dont do it.

Why are M43 hanging on to old sensors and adding pro features like IBIS? $$$$$$$$?

NO, give the people good fast focus as a standard and make things like IBIS, which to be fair even in DSLRs is a PRO feature, PDAF isnt.
Tough.
 
Ok Ill ask it this way.

Why are M43 so reluctant to upgrade their aging sensors to include hybrid focus to increase both speed, focus tracking and reduce focus drift?
if it aint broke don't fix it :-) my em52 doesn't need any better af its great the way it is. and doesn't suffer from any of your examples.

Don
 
Sony's packing a lot of computing horsepower into its A7 cameras. With each iteration, it gets better by leaps and bounds, whereas DSLR AF seems to have hit a wall (or at least is asymptotically approaching one).

I'm betting the A7R IV will leave Nikon completely in the dust.
 
if it aint broke don't fix it :-) my em52 doesn't need any better af its great the way it is. and doesn't suffer from any of your examples.
Not looking to start an argument don, but chuck an 1.8 on an a6000 and what would be about be equal on your 4/3 sensor (F1.2?), take a photo after the sun has/is gone down. now which sensor focuses quicker?

and this is the issue, speed, even in broad daylight, if pdaf focusses SO much quicker and you miss your shot because you only had cdaf, you have been robbed, IBIS wont be caring about you then. Of course im being extreme and melodramatic.

i agree if you only shoot in broad daylight its GENERALLY a non issue, but even the golden hours you want and deserve sharp (contrast detect) and fast (phase detect) focus system as mainstream, not a PRO feature when its standard with everybody but m43. whats not standard are PRO features, like IBIS etc. its like learning to run before you can walk methodology imo. get the basics right, then add the goodies.

im just frustrated, Fuji has a great focus system now, Nikon always has, Sony is the tech leader, even Canon are trying, but Oly, nope, only PRO photographers deserve Focus.
 
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Sony's packing a lot of computing horsepower into its A7 cameras. With each iteration, it gets better by leaps and bounds, whereas DSLR AF seems to have hit a wall (or at least is asymptotically approaching one).

I'm betting the A7R IV will leave Nikon completely in the dust.
Oh thats asking for someone with a D500 or D5 to bite at you hehe. Its AF is AMAZING. And id buy that nikon over a sony even though Im somewhat of a sony fan, although Im a nikon person too, and an oly and going back to my memories a pentax and kodak shooter.
 
Sony's packing a lot of computing horsepower into its A7 cameras. With each iteration, it gets better by leaps and bounds, whereas DSLR AF seems to have hit a wall (or at least is asymptotically approaching one).

I'm betting the A7R IV will leave Nikon completely in the dust.
Oh thats asking for someone with a D500 or D5 to bite at you hehe. Its AF is AMAZING. And id buy that nikon over a sony even though Im somewhat of a sony fan, although Im a nikon person too, and an oly and going back to my memories a pentax and kodak shooter.
Sony have the advantage of being able to add features such as Eye AF. They can analyse the whole image and select the focus point.

As processing chips advance, this could be extended to, for instance, Bird AF for wildlife photographers.

They can also track a subject across the frame, keeping it in focus. Somebody posted some very sharp images of a swift (one of the fastest flying birds), taken with a Sony A9 using tracking. I expect the speed of the A9 to extend down to cheaper models over the next few years.
 
So the OMD e-m10 mk3 is as fast at auto focus in moonlight as the Sony a6500?

Because I love the new mk3 except for its AF system.

Ive tried to like m43, last year it was gx85, and every time I would get poor focus lock and focus tracking or focus drift or it would take a lot longer to find focus than my dslr or an a6000.

Tell me cdaf is as fast as hybrid cdaf and pdaf in the m10 mk3, no show me, and Ill buy want one. I can live without the IBIS. Fast auto focus is far more important to build a camera upon.
Not sure why that was a reply to me ... I never mentioned the Olympus.
 
But the mk3 is a budget model . If you want pro features buy pro kit like the em1 mk2.
No argument. The point Im making is, hybrid cdaf pdaf should NOT be what differentiates a Pro model.

Fuji dont do it, sony dont do it.

Why are M43 hanging on to old sensors and adding pro features like IBIS? $$$$$$$$?

NO, give the people good fast focus as a standard and make things like IBIS, which to be fair even in DSLRs is a PRO feature, PDAF isnt.
I suggest that "PD"-AF is indeed a "pro" feature.

It is what differentiates from former MirrorLess which have been limited by slow AF.

So the new hybrid sensors, (and Panasonic DFD-AF), are attempts to put MirrorLess in a "pro" class because even amateurs NEED FAST AF.
 
Sony's packing a lot of computing horsepower into its A7 cameras. With each iteration, it gets better by leaps and bounds, whereas DSLR AF seems to have hit a wall (or at least is asymptotically approaching one).

I'm betting the A7R IV will leave Nikon completely in the dust.
Oh thats asking for someone with a D500 or D5 to bite at you hehe. Its AF is AMAZING. And id buy that nikon over a sony even though Im somewhat of a sony fan, although Im a nikon person too, and an oly and going back to my memories a pentax and kodak shooter.
He is suggesting the A7R-"IV" will leave Nikon-in-dust.

If that happens and PROVES correct, would you still buy another Nikon if you knew another camera(s) surpassed it ???

I certainly would not if the other (better) camera was in my price range.
 
Let me first of state, Im not an expert and Im genuinely curious.

But the things I have noticed.

Sony leap frogged everyone with hybrid cdaf pdaf
Nikon introduced hybrid PDAF/CDAF using on-sensor PDAF with the V1 in 2011. It was way ahead of any other mirrorless CAF system at the time.

I believe that Nikon had a technology transfer agreement with Sony in 2012/13 which gave Nikon's hybrid PDAF/CDAF to Sony and Fujifilm. I don't know exactly what Nikon got in return but presumably it was access to Sony's latest sensors.

I think that the recent rapid improvements in hybrid PDAF/CDAF and the other AF systems on mirrorless cameras have been due (as somebody else has already said) to increased processing power. It is not difficult to imagine hybrid PDAF/CDAF (and possibly Canon's DPAF and Panasonic's DFD) overtaking conventional DSLR PDAF in the next generation or two of mirrorless bodies.

So the real question is why did Nikon give away their lead in mirrorless technology and then effectively dump the excellent Nikon 1 Series?
 
They can also track a subject across the frame, keeping it in focus. Somebody posted some very sharp images of a swift (one of the fastest flying birds), taken with a Sony A9 using tracking. I expect the speed of the A9 to extend down to cheaper models over the next few years.
Actually, DSLRs have some advantages with subject tracking. The mirror allows them to use dedicated purpose built sensors for focus and subject tracking.

For instance, some Canon DSLRs have a subject tracking sensor that samples into the IR range (instead of RGB it uses RGB+IR). This allows it to track some subjects that appear to the human eye to be the same color as the background. The dedicated phase detect focus sensors are very good at knowing how far out of focus the subject is, and in which direction.
 
"So the real question is why did Nikon give away their lead in mirrorless technology and then effectively dump the excellent Nikon 1 Series?"

I genuinely think that either Nikon did not realise just how good the 1 series was(is) or they deliberately messed it up with odd features missing and high prices to try and avoid cannibalising their DSLR sales.

Either way Nikon screwed up a wonderful mirrorless system that had the potential to be soooo much better - even though it is still very good indeed despite the endless Nikon ****-ups.
 
Sony's packing a lot of computing horsepower into its A7 cameras. With each iteration, it gets better by leaps and bounds, whereas DSLR AF seems to have hit a wall (or at least is asymptotically approaching one).

I'm betting the A7R IV will leave Nikon completely in the dust.
Oh thats asking for someone with a D500 or D5 to bite at you hehe. Its AF is AMAZING. And id buy that nikon over a sony even though Im somewhat of a sony fan, although Im a nikon person too, and an oly and going back to my memories a pentax and kodak shooter.
He is suggesting the A7R-"IV" will leave Nikon-in-dust.

If that happens and PROVES correct, would you still buy another Nikon if you knew another camera(s) surpassed it ???

I certainly would not if the other (better) camera was in my price range.
It would depend on whether I needed the better AF (and how many people really need CAF at 15 fps or higher?), how much the change was going to cost and whether the lenses that I needed were available on Sony.
 
They can also track a subject across the frame, keeping it in focus. Somebody posted some very sharp images of a swift (one of the fastest flying birds), taken with a Sony A9 using tracking. I expect the speed of the A9 to extend down to cheaper models over the next few years.
Actually, DSLRs have some advantages with subject tracking. The mirror allows them to use dedicated purpose built sensors for focus and subject tracking.

For instance, some Canon DSLRs have a subject tracking sensor that samples into the IR range (instead of RGB it uses RGB+IR). This allows it to track some subjects that appear to the human eye to be the same color as the background. The dedicated phase detect focus sensors are very good at knowing how far out of focus the subject is, and in which direction.
This is a difficult subject to get any information on. The separate PDAF sensor in a DSLR has both advantages and disadvantages. One would expect the main advantage to be the greater base distance between the pairs of PDAF detectors on a DSLR which should lead to more accurate distance calculations, but the latest OSPDAF sensors (and especially Canon's DPAF and Panasonic's DfD) appear to be able to compensate for this. I would think that something like IR/3D/colour tracking would be available on a sensor based system if it were not protected by patents.

The disadvantages of a separate PDAF sensor are greatly increased risk of front/back focusing because of the separate light paths, inability to cover the whole sensor area with focus points and inability to focus while the mirror is up. The last point is likely to get more important as sensor read out rates (especially with the Sony dual layer sensors) become faster than mirror blackout times. Again, it is very difficult to get good information on this area.

IMHO any remaining DSLR advantages are only available on high end bodies (e.g. D500, D5) and when using continuous focusing. Based on images posted on these forums by users of the latest mirrorless bodies (especially the E-M1.2), I think these bodies are at least as good as midrange DSLRs.

I don't think that there has been any significant practical difference in single shot focusing speeds for some time now.
 
This is a difficult subject to get any information on. The separate PDAF sensor in a DSLR has both advantages and disadvantages. One would expect the main advantage to be the greater base distance between the pairs of PDAF detectors on a DSLR which should lead to more accurate distance calculations, but the latest OSPDAF sensors (and especially Canon's DPAF and Panasonic's DfD) appear to be able to compensate for this. I would think that something like IR/3D/colour tracking would be available on a sensor based system if it were not protected by patents.
While it's possible to build IR color tracking into the sensor of a mirrorless system, there are drawbacks. In order to add IR tracking, some of the pixels need to be IR sensitive. Since we generally don't want IR influencing the captured image, those pixels are not available for the image capture.

Thus adding IR tracking to a mirrorless camera reduces resolution and noise performance.

The disadvantages of a separate PDAF sensor are greatly increased risk of front/back focusing because of the separate light paths, inability to cover the whole sensor area with focus points and inability to focus while the mirror is up. The last point is likely to get more important as sensor read out rates (especially with the Sony dual layer sensors) become faster than mirror blackout times. Again, it is very difficult to get good information on this area.
Yes, there are drawbacks to the mirror.

In terms of what happens when the mirror is up, the answer is that you are dependent on the image sensor. On my bottom of the line Rebel SL2, that image sensor has dual pixel autofocus.

Mirrorless and DSLRs have difference strengths and weaknesses. For the vast majority of tasks, either is a good choice. However there are a few situations where mirrorless is clearly better, or where DSLR is clearly better.

IMHO any remaining DSLR advantages are only available on high end bodies (e.g. D500, D5) and when using continuous focusing. Based on images posted on these forums by users of the latest mirrorless bodies (especially the E-M1.2), I think these bodies are at least as good as midrange DSLRs.
Canon has introduced RGB+IR subject tracking into their low end line with the Rebel T7i.

However, as you point out RGB+IR tracking is not necessary in many circumstances. Mirrorless cameras (and DSLRs without RGB+IR) can do an excellent job.
I don't think that there has been any significant practical difference in single shot focusing speeds for some time now.
For most situations both mirrorless and DSLRs are good choices. It really boils down to personal preference.
 
This is a difficult subject to get any information on. The separate PDAF sensor in a DSLR has both advantages and disadvantages. One would expect the main advantage to be the greater base distance between the pairs of PDAF detectors on a DSLR which should lead to more accurate distance calculations, but the latest OSPDAF sensors (and especially Canon's DPAF and Panasonic's DfD) appear to be able to compensate for this. I would think that something like IR/3D/colour tracking would be available on a sensor based system if it were not protected by patents.
While it's possible to build IR color tracking into the sensor of a mirrorless system, there are drawbacks. In order to add IR tracking, some of the pixels need to be IR sensitive. Since we generally don't want IR influencing the captured image, those pixels are not available for the image capture.

Thus adding IR tracking to a mirrorless camera reduces resolution and noise performance.
AFAIK (and leaving aside Canon's DPAF) all OSPDAF sensors already have pixels positions dedicated to AF which aren't used for the final image. You might be interested in this thread: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/56674667
 
Let me first of state, Im not an expert and Im genuinely curious.

But the things I have noticed.

Sony leap frogged everyone with hybrid cdaf pdaf
Nikon introduced hybrid PDAF/CDAF using on-sensor PDAF with the V1 in 2011.
the v1 series cameras used aptina and sony sensors... here is an interesting article on the history of ospdaf development:

http://www.techinsights.com/about-t...successful-consumer-digital-imaging-products/

--
dan
 
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Let me first of state, Im not an expert and Im genuinely curious.

But the things I have noticed.

Sony leap frogged everyone with hybrid cdaf pdaf

Fuji have just caught up

And Oly M43 produce a beautiful new omd m10iii but NO pdaf or hybrid focus system. And still 16Mp.
This is a question that will find the best answers in the Photographic Science forum.

MIrrorless cameras started out by using contrast detection autofocus, CDAF. This system involves continuous readout of the image sensor and an iterative process whereby the focus of the lens is racked back and forth until the contrast of the image peaks. Obviously, the time it takes to find that peak depends on how fast the captured image can be converted into a digital file, whether or not a portion or the entire frame is assessed, the precision with which the pixel data used for focusing is converted (AF doesn't require full image-rendering precision), how fast the lens can respond to focusing commands, how clean the signal is from the sensor, and stability of the image on the frame. There are other factors. The usual CDAF focusing process takes several iterations to complete.

In recent years manufacturers have figured out how to implement a form of phase detection autofocus, (PDAF), on the sensor itself. PDAF is basically an automating of the focusing technique used in rangefinder cameras, in which the image is split into two parts and then projected onto a ground glass. The separation between the split images is directly related to the quality of focus, and in rangefinders the eye was used to overlay them. Modern SLR versions of this technique project the images onto a dedicated line-sensor and an autocorrelation is performed to determine where to focus the lens. Note that PDAF generates both a distance and direction signal from an extremely small amount of data, so the lens theoretically requires no hunting to acquire focus, making it extremely fast and very effective at tracking moving subjects. CDAF generates only a "distance" signal, so has to guess initially which way to go, making it slower.

On-sensor PDAF, OSPDAF, masks pixels on the imaging sensor so that they look in opposite directions. There are various ways that this masking can occur: on every pixel (Canon's DPAF), and in sparser arrays (Sony and others). Which method is used is a design decision, as there are tradeoffs to both general techniques, but the technque does deliver the distance and direction signals that make for much faster focusing than CDAF.

In general, however, OSPDAF has several fundamental limitations with respect to SLR-type PDAF that have restricted its ability to focus reliably in low light conditions and in situations where extreme discrimination of the subject from the environment is required. This has led to the development of hybrid on-sensor AF systems - systems that combine PDAF, CDAF, and subject feature detection and tracking. Panasonic's DFD is an interesting mashup in that it is a CDAF system that knows the defocusing characteristics of the lenses attached to it (Panasonic only, of course), so can from only a couple of iterations determine where proper focus is much faster than a pure CDAF system, but still slower than PDAF.

Lens mechanical focusing speed aside - as it is an important factor for both systems - the thing that makes both systems faster is the ability to get image data off of the sensor and processed FAST. Typical sensors convert image signals one row at a time, then ship it off in serial fashion to a separate image processor chip. Sony, with its stacked sensor, RAM, and processor chips, is able to process data in parallel, which gives it its speed and subject tracking prowess.

In summary, then, the improving speed of mirrorless AF systems has been due to a steady progression of readout speed, algorithmic scope and efficiency, and lens mechanicals that have now put them - in the best mirrorless cameras - within spitting distance of DSLR PDAF system performance, and in certain situations actually exceeding it. The cost has been electronic circuit complexity and power dissipation.

So to answer your question, why doesn't your EM10iii focus like an A9 - or even an EM-1? The reason is cost and market targeting. The EM10iii is an entry level camera and therefore doesn't include the sophisticated sensor architecture and processing chips that would be required to give you that performance.
 

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