Color calibration for monitor + Windows 10 ?

[telljcl]

Trying out a Benq sw2700pt monitor with a hardware LUT that can be calibrated independently from Windows.

I'm not sure I have a firm grasp on the whole thing, however.

Windows itself has color settings (Graphic adapter Color Management / Advanced - "Device Profile: and "Viewing Conditions Profile:" etc...

The graphics card has adjustments (which I've left at "flat".)

The monitor has it's own adjustments (Color space and then color and gamma adjustments within that space).

Question is - for purposes of photography, and being reasonably sure that what I see on my screen is what somebody else likely should see on their screen, how - step by step -should I go about doing this?

I've calibrated the monitor a few times, but the thing that seems to make the most difference is selecting the monitor's color space. I don't do much printing so I've decided to try to stay within sRGB, but selecting that profile in the monitor gives very under-saturated color - esp red. So I've chosen aRGB in the monitor's setting for color space, but this seems counter intuitive.

I've got it so where my files look right by eye, and photos online that I've taken look right through the browser, but "windows" system colors etc... look off to me. .JPGs in web pages etc... and all my images however look correct.

Any basic hand-holding appreciated on properly understanding the whole process.

 

[Cariboo]

PLEASE search this forum for display calibration & color management . This question was just asked & answered a few days ago, so might not even have to search much but just look down the list of threads!!!!!!

Also search for Digitaldog.net. He has lots of great info on his site. Search YouTube for video tutorials on display calibration etc. Use Google!!!!!

Also, your info is incomplete & vague. HOW did you calibrate your monitor? What hardware & what software did you use? THAT should control how your display works & that software inputs the calibrated profile at the time of booting up. DO NOT go into Windows OS display settings & change any settings there.

Also, have you read the Benq manual???? There should be info in the user guide on how the the user should use their display. You could also likely get support from the Benq website, so why not go to the source? See the problem is, we don't know what you have or haven't done, so it'd be better for you to figure out than to have everyone else try & guess. Please search the forum.

 

[ggbutcher]

This might help:

https://ninedegreesbelow.com/photography/monitor-profile-calibrate-confuse.html

 

[Bobby49]

Trying out a Benq sw2700pt monitor with a hardware LUT that can be calibrated independently from Windows.

I'm not sure I have a firm grasp on the whole thing, however.

Windows itself has color settings (Graphic adapter Color Management / Advanced - "Device Profile: and "Viewing Conditions Profile:" etc...

The graphics card has adjustments (which I've left at "flat".)

The monitor has it's own adjustments (Color space and then color and gamma adjustments within that space).

Question is - for purposes of photography, and being reasonably sure that what I see on my screen is what somebody else likely should see on their screen, how - step by step -should I go about doing this?

I've calibrated the monitor a few times, but the thing that seems to make the most difference is selecting the monitor's color space. I don't do much printing so I've decided to try to stay within sRGB, but selecting that profile in the monitor gives very under-saturated color - esp red. So I've chosen aRGB in the monitor's setting for color space, but this seems counter intuitive.

I've got it so where my files look right by eye, and photos online that I've taken look right through the browser, but "windows" system colors etc... look off to me. .JPGs in web pages etc... and all my images however look correct.

Any basic hand-holding appreciated on properly understanding the whole process.

Interesting, because I've been going through a similar process with a new PC and new monitor in Windows 10. I'm trying to use a Spyder5, with great difficulty. I've never been offered any choice of sRGB or anything else. By eyeball, I can move the color around, but I cannot get it anywhere near accurate.

 

[markkuk]

Trying out a Benq sw2700pt monitor with a hardware LUT that can be calibrated independently from Windows.

Calibrating the hardware LUT requires the use of BenQ's Palette Master Element software (and a supported color sensor) which runs under Windows (or MacOS), so it's not exactly independent of Windows.

The monitor has it's own adjustments (Color space and then color and gamma adjustments within that space).

You don't touch any of those if you use hardware calibration.

Question is - for purposes of photography, and being reasonably sure that what I see on my screen is what somebody else likely should see on their screen, how - step by step -should I go about doing this?

1. Purchase or borrow one of the calibration devices supported by Palette Master Element.

2. Make sure you have the monitor connected to the computer with an USB cable in addition to the display cable.

3. Install the Palette Master Element software: http://www.benq.us/product/monitor/sw2700pt/downloads/

4. Read the manual.

5. Start the software, choose the settings, place the sensor on the indicated spot on the screen and wait while the program does its thing.

6. Now that your screen is calibrated and profiled, you need to use color managed software to fully benefit from the results.

 

[telljcl]

Trying out a Benq sw2700pt monitor with a hardware LUT that can be calibrated independently from Windows.

Calibrating the hardware LUT requires the use of BenQ's Palette Master Element software (and a supported color sensor) which runs under Windows (or MacOS), so it's not exactly independent of Windows.

Understood, but apparently the adjustments required to accurately display color / black level / gamma etc... are not being done by Windows - Windows (as I understand it) controls are unchanged, and the monitor is just "correct" because it has been calibrated?

The monitor has it's own adjustments (Color space and then color and gamma adjustments within that space).

You don't touch any of those if you use hardware calibration.

OK, but which color space (in the monitor) do you start the calibration with (or does it somehow not use one)?

Question is - for purposes of photography, and being reasonably sure that what I see on my screen is what somebody else likely should see on their screen, how - step by step -should I go about doing this?

1. Purchase or borrow one of the calibration devices supported by Palette Master Element.

2. Make sure you have the monitor connected to the computer with an USB cable in addition to the display cable.

3. Install the Palette Master Element software: http://www.benq.us/product/monitor/sw2700pt/downloads/

4. Read the manual.

5. Connect the calibrator to one of the USB ports on the monitor.

6. Start the software, choose the settings, place the sensor on the indicated spot on the screen and wait while the program does its thing.

7. Now that your screen is calibrated and profiled, you need to use color managed software to fully benefit from the results.

Thanks - have done all the above. Have an i1 meter. Apparently it is correct then, but I wanted to be certain my starting point was correct.

If I select sRGB in calibration, things look washed out, but if I calibrate for aRGB things look "right" (like they appear on every other decent computer viewing typical sRGB 2.1 speced. JPG files, for example).

All my images were shot using sRGB or converted from RAW to .JPG with an sRGB 2.1 profile, so I'm not sure why I need to calibrate the monitor using aRGB specification?

I guess this is the part I"m most unclear on.

Thanks for your time.

 

[telljcl]

Thanks!

 

[markkuk]

OK, but which color space (in the monitor) do you start the calibration with (or does it somehow not use one)?

It doesn't matter what you have selected before you run the calibration, but afterwards you you use either "Calibration 1" or "Calibration 2" depending on which one you have selected in the software.

If I select sRGB in calibration, things look washed out, but if I calibrate for aRGB things look "right"

If you set the monitor to either sRGB or AdobeRGB modes, then the hardware calibration done using Palette Master is ignored. SW2700PT's native color space is close enough to AdobeRGB to avoid clearly visible color errors when mixing AdobeRGB setting with native profile.

All my images were shot using sRGB or converted from RAW to .JPG with an sRGB 2.1 profile, so I'm not sure why I need to calibrate the monitor using aRGB specification?

Palette Master Element doesn't provide the possibility to calibrate the monitor using AdobeRGB specification, or sRGB, or any other color space than its native space. Only the Calibration1 and Calibration2 monitor settings can be hardware calibrated (unless this has changed in some new version of the software).

 

[telljcl]

OK, but which color space (in the monitor) do you start the calibration with (or does it somehow not use one)?

It doesn't matter what you have selected before you run the calibration, but afterwards you you use either "Calibration 1" or "Calibration 2" depending on which one you have selected in the software.

OK - makes sense.

If I select sRGB in calibration, things look washed out, but if I calibrate for aRGB things look "right"

If you set the monitor to either sRGB or AdobeRGB modes, then the hardware calibration done using Palette Master is ignored. SW2700PT's native color space is close enough to AdobeRGB to avoid clearly visible color errors when mixing AdobeRGB setting with native profile.

Understood - what I meant was when beginning the calibration, choosing the color space in Palette Master ("RGB Primaries" as it is listed). There are basically only 5 things to specify before it runs the calibration: White point, black level, gamma, luminance and RGB primaries.

Choices for RGB primaries include sRGB, aRGB, Panel Native, Custom and 2 video settings (rec. 709 and DCI-P3). This is where if I choose sRGB for the calibration things look washed out (but using the Calibration 1/2 setting on the monitor).

All my images were shot using sRGB or converted from RAW to .JPG with an sRGB 2.1 profile, so I'm not sure why I need to calibrate the monitor using aRGB specification?

Palette Master Element doesn't provide the possibility to calibrate the monitor using AdobeRGB specification, or sRGB, or any other color space than its native space. Only the Calibration1 and Calibration2 monitor settings can be hardware calibrated (unless this has changed in some new version of the software).

As above - I meant selecting aRGB color space at the start of calibration, not choosing it instead of the Calibration 1 or Calibration 2 profiles in the monitor.

.....

...So then - as far as Windows goes, after running the calibration, I should choose the .icc profile that the Palette Master calibration routine generates as the default under "Display adapter / Color Management" and check "use my settings for this device" - Correct?

 

[markkuk]

Understood - what I meant was when beginning the calibration, choosing the color space in Palette Master ("RGB Primaries" as it is listed). There are basically only 5 things to specify before it runs the calibration: White point, black level, gamma, luminance and RGB primaries.

Choices for RGB primaries include sRGB, aRGB, Panel Native, Custom and 2 video settings (rec. 709 and DCI-P3).

Sorry, I don't see any such choice in my copy of Palette Master Element V1.2.5 (should be the latest version)

Are you sure you are actually using the Palette Master Element software provided by BenQ, not the software bundled with your color calibrator?

 

[telljcl]

This is what I have - not sure why yours doesn't have it.

Maybe you are using a different meter? i1 Display Pro here.

My Palette Master info: Application version 1.2.5, Calibrator version 1.3.1

 

[telljcl]

Understood - what I meant was when beginning the calibration, choosing the color space in Palette Master ("RGB Primaries" as it is listed). There are basically only 5 things to specify before it runs the calibration: White point, black level, gamma, luminance and RGB primaries.

Choices for RGB primaries include sRGB, aRGB, Panel Native, Custom and 2 video settings (rec. 709 and DCI-P3).

Sorry, I don't see any such choice in my copy of Palette Master Element V1.2.5 (should be the latest version)

Are you sure you are actually using the Palette Master Element software provided by BenQ, not the software bundled with your color calibrator?

This is what I have, see below - not sure why yours doesn't have it.

Maybe you are using a different meter? i1 Display Pro here.

My Palette Master info: Application version 1.2.5, Calibrator version 1.3.1

 

[ggbutcher]

Thanks!

I had to read it a few times to get the drift. That, and I bought the X-Rite Colormunki Photographer kit and used the colorimeter to make a display profile, and the ColorChecker to make a camera profile. When I stuck the camera and display profiles in the appropriate places and started to play with different working profiles, things started to click...

 

[Simon Garrett]

Trying out a Benq sw2700pt monitor with a hardware LUT that can be calibrated independently from Windows.

I'm not sure I have a firm grasp on the whole thing, however.

Windows itself has color settings (Graphic adapter Color Management / Advanced - "Device Profile: and "Viewing Conditions Profile:" etc...

The graphics card has adjustments (which I've left at "flat".)

The monitor has it's own adjustments (Color space and then color and gamma adjustments within that space).

Question is - for purposes of photography, and being reasonably sure that what I see on my screen is what somebody else likely should see on their screen, how - step by step -should I go about doing this?

I've calibrated the monitor a few times, but the thing that seems to make the most difference is selecting the monitor's color space. I don't do much printing so I've decided to try to stay within sRGB, but selecting that profile in the monitor gives very under-saturated color - esp red. So I've chosen aRGB in the monitor's setting for color space, but this seems counter intuitive.

I've got it so where my files look right by eye, and photos online that I've taken look right through the browser, but "windows" system colors etc... look off to me. .JPGs in web pages etc... and all my images however look correct.

Any basic hand-holding appreciated on properly understanding the whole process.

I suggest doing what markkuk says - follow the monitor instructions to calibrate/profile the monitor using their software.

One thing to add: if the software offers an option to create "v2" or "v4" profiles, choose v2. There are no practical benefits from v4 (yet), and quite a lot of software doesn't work well with v4 profiles.

One warning: the Benq monitor is wide gamut. That's good (I use wide-gamut monitors) but comes with problems: colours will almost always be displayed incorrectly (oversaturated) unless the monitor is correctly calibrated/profiled (use the software that comes with the Benq unless you're sure you know what you're doing) and you use colour managed software.

Colour-managed software includes Photoshop, Lightroom and most photo software. Colour-managed browsers include Firefox, Vivaldi, Chrome and Safari. Don't know about Opera.

IE and Edge are not properly colour managed (despite what some test pages say), and will always result in oversaturation on a wide-gamut monitor. The W10 Photos app is not colour managed, the previous Windows Photo Viewer is colour managed and is supplied with W10, but is crippled in W10 (Google for how to enable it). The Windows desktop is not colour managed.

When you browse the web, most coloured elements on web pages are not jpeg images but are gif or png without embedded profiles. Chrome and Safari, though colour-managed, don't bother unless there's a profile embedded in each graphic element, resulting in over-saturation. This is bonkers, and the W3C recommendation is that browsers should assume that graphic elements without profiles are in fact sRGB (virtually always the case). Vivaldi does this, and makes web pages look OK. Firefox can but it's not the default behaviour (you have to change gfx.color_management.mode to 1 - Google for how to do it if you use Firefox).

The link that ggbutcher posted (https://ninedegreesbelow.com/photography/monitor-profile-calibrate-confuse.html) starts off by talking about all the wrong things that silly people think, and then gives a rainbow of choices with very confusing explanation. At least, it confused me, and I know quite a lot about colour management.

At the risk of increasing confusion (but I hope not!) try http://simongarrett.uk/ColourManagementCheatSheet.htm . At the bottom of that page I've included lots of links to other sources I've found useful.

Two test pages that might be useful:

http://simongarrett.uk/TestColours.htm

http://cameratico.com/tools/web-browser-color-management-test/

 

[markkuk]

This is what I have - not sure why yours doesn't have it.

I think Panel Native is the only sensible choice here. That way you are using the full gamut of your monitor.

 

[Simon Garrett]

This is what I have - not sure why yours doesn't have it.

I think Panel Native is the only sensible choice here. That way you are using the full gamut of your monitor.

Agreed. Also, reviews (e.g. on http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/ and http://www.prad.de/) tend to find that native mode calibrations/profiles are more accurate.

Note that for many purposes the exact choice of colour space to which the monitor is calibrated doesn't matter. The whole purpose of colour management is to get the correct colour displayed whatever the colour space of the monitor. In other words, any colour will be displayed the same on any monitor calibrated to the same white point, provided the colour is within the monitor's display gamut and colour management is used. So might as well choose the widest colour space, which is the monitor's native colour space.

IMHO the only other likely choice is sRGB, to avoid the worst impact of non colour-managed software. This is because sRGB colours are be displayed correctly on an sRGB monitor without colour management. Given that most images on web sites are sRGB, that means most web pages will look OK without colour management if the monitor is calibrated to sRGB.

The penalty of calibrating to sRGB is that any colour outside sRGB gamut is displayed incorrectly; you lose the benefit of a wide-gamut monitor.

Note that with most monitors you can't calibrate the colour space (only white point and tone curve can be calibrated, using the video card LUT). It tends to be only upmarket monitors whose colour space can be calibrated, as it needs internal 3D hardware LUTs. This tends to include things like Benq, NEC, Eizo and some Dell.

--
Simon

 

[telljcl]

Trying out a Benq sw2700pt monitor with a hardware LUT that can be calibrated independently from Windows.

I'm not sure I have a firm grasp on the whole thing, however.

Windows itself has color settings (Graphic adapter Color Management / Advanced - "Device Profile: and "Viewing Conditions Profile:" etc...

The graphics card has adjustments (which I've left at "flat".)

The monitor has it's own adjustments (Color space and then color and gamma adjustments within that space).

Question is - for purposes of photography, and being reasonably sure that what I see on my screen is what somebody else likely should see on their screen, how - step by step -should I go about doing this?

I've calibrated the monitor a few times, but the thing that seems to make the most difference is selecting the monitor's color space. I don't do much printing so I've decided to try to stay within sRGB, but selecting that profile in the monitor gives very under-saturated color - esp red. So I've chosen aRGB in the monitor's setting for color space, but this seems counter intuitive.

I've got it so where my files look right by eye, and photos online that I've taken look right through the browser, but "windows" system colors etc... look off to me. .JPGs in web pages etc... and all my images however look correct.

Any basic hand-holding appreciated on properly understanding the whole process.

I suggest doing what markkuk says - follow the monitor instructions to calibrate/profile the monitor using their software.

One thing to add: if the software offers an option to create "v2" or "v4" profiles, choose v2. There are no practical benefits from v4 (yet), and quite a lot of software doesn't work well with v4 profiles.

One warning: the Benq monitor is wide gamut. That's good (I use wide-gamut monitors) but comes with problems: colours will almost always be displayed incorrectly (oversaturated) unless the monitor is correctly calibrated/profiled (use the software that comes with the Benq unless you're sure you know what you're doing) and you use colour managed software.

Colour-managed software includes Photoshop, Lightroom and most photo software. Colour-managed browsers include Firefox, Vivaldi, Chrome and Safari. Don't know about Opera.

IE and Edge are not properly colour managed (despite what some test pages say), and will always result in oversaturation on a wide-gamut monitor. The W10 Photos app is not colour managed, the previous Windows Photo Viewer is colour managed and is supplied with W10, but is crippled in W10 (Google for how to enable it). The Windows desktop is not colour managed.

When you browse the web, most coloured elements on web pages are not jpeg images but are gif or png without embedded profiles. Chrome and Safari, though colour-managed, don't bother unless there's a profile embedded in each graphic element, resulting in over-saturation. This is bonkers, and the W3C recommendation is that browsers should assume that graphic elements without profiles are in fact sRGB (virtually always the case). Vivaldi does this, and makes web pages look OK. Firefox can but it's not the default behaviour (you have to change gfx.color_management.mode to 1 - Google for how to do it if you use Firefox).

The link that ggbutcher posted (https://ninedegreesbelow.com/photography/monitor-profile-calibrate-confuse.html) starts off by talking about all the wrong things that silly people think, and then gives a rainbow of choices with very confusing explanation. At least, it confused me, and I know quite a lot about colour management.

At the risk of increasing confusion (but I hope not!) try http://simongarrett.uk/ColourManagementCheatSheet.htm . At the bottom of that page I've included lots of links to other sources I've found useful.

Two test pages that might be useful:

http://simongarrett.uk/TestColours.htm

http://cameratico.com/tools/web-browser-color-management-test/

--
Simon

Thank you - excellent information, esp. with regards to color management and where it is and maybe isn't implemented.

Relating to the bold section of your post above, I think this is why I may be seeing some Windows screen elements that appear "wrong", while photos (in color managed SW) seems to be correct. That may be related to setting the proper color space when calibrating (using Benq Palette Master) - see the screen shot I posted. Another poster doesn't have any options as to what color space to calibrate with (for?) but as you can see in the screen shot I can choose sRGB, aRGB, Panel Native and a few video-oriented ones like rec-709 etc...

What should be the correct choice here? I've always been led to believe that sRGB (unless doing a lot of print work) is the most "compatible" choice, and its the one I export all my .JPGs from RAW using.

Thanks again for taking the time to comment - very much appreciated.

 

[Simon Garrett]

Trying out a Benq sw2700pt monitor with a hardware LUT that can be calibrated independently from Windows.

I'm not sure I have a firm grasp on the whole thing, however.

Windows itself has color settings (Graphic adapter Color Management / Advanced - "Device Profile: and "Viewing Conditions Profile:" etc...

The graphics card has adjustments (which I've left at "flat".)

The monitor has it's own adjustments (Color space and then color and gamma adjustments within that space).

Question is - for purposes of photography, and being reasonably sure that what I see on my screen is what somebody else likely should see on their screen, how - step by step -should I go about doing this?

I've calibrated the monitor a few times, but the thing that seems to make the most difference is selecting the monitor's color space. I don't do much printing so I've decided to try to stay within sRGB, but selecting that profile in the monitor gives very under-saturated color - esp red. So I've chosen aRGB in the monitor's setting for color space, but this seems counter intuitive.

I've got it so where my files look right by eye, and photos online that I've taken look right through the browser, but "windows" system colors etc... look off to me. .JPGs in web pages etc... and all my images however look correct.

Any basic hand-holding appreciated on properly understanding the whole process.

I suggest doing what markkuk says - follow the monitor instructions to calibrate/profile the monitor using their software.

One thing to add: if the software offers an option to create "v2" or "v4" profiles, choose v2. There are no practical benefits from v4 (yet), and quite a lot of software doesn't work well with v4 profiles.

One warning: the Benq monitor is wide gamut. That's good (I use wide-gamut monitors) but comes with problems: colours will almost always be displayed incorrectly (oversaturated) unless the monitor is correctly calibrated/profiled (use the software that comes with the Benq unless you're sure you know what you're doing) and you use colour managed software.

Colour-managed software includes Photoshop, Lightroom and most photo software. Colour-managed browsers include Firefox, Vivaldi, Chrome and Safari. Don't know about Opera.

IE and Edge are not properly colour managed (despite what some test pages say), and will always result in oversaturation on a wide-gamut monitor. The W10 Photos app is not colour managed, the previous Windows Photo Viewer is colour managed and is supplied with W10, but is crippled in W10 (Google for how to enable it). The Windows desktop is not colour managed.

When you browse the web, most coloured elements on web pages are not jpeg images but are gif or png without embedded profiles. Chrome and Safari, though colour-managed, don't bother unless there's a profile embedded in each graphic element, resulting in over-saturation. This is bonkers, and the W3C recommendation is that browsers should assume that graphic elements without profiles are in fact sRGB (virtually always the case). Vivaldi does this, and makes web pages look OK. Firefox can but it's not the default behaviour (you have to change gfx.color_management.mode to 1 - Google for how to do it if you use Firefox).

The link that ggbutcher posted (https://ninedegreesbelow.com/photography/monitor-profile-calibrate-confuse.html) starts off by talking about all the wrong things that silly people think, and then gives a rainbow of choices with very confusing explanation. At least, it confused me, and I know quite a lot about colour management.

At the risk of increasing confusion (but I hope not!) try http://simongarrett.uk/ColourManagementCheatSheet.htm . At the bottom of that page I've included lots of links to other sources I've found useful.

Two test pages that might be useful:

http://simongarrett.uk/TestColours.htm

http://cameratico.com/tools/web-browser-color-management-test/

 

[Space Cam]

Wow... give the guy a break by not being so rude. We are here to help each other out. Mind your manners!