Various cheap alternatives to Trioplan; lenses producing soap bubble bokeh on Nikon D800 and Sony A7

[jarek leo]

Thanks for the words of consolation. I still feel bad about the looks of my bellows solution. But it works and is highly portable. The bellows is really lightweight and small, the size of compact short telephono lens and It is easily accomodated in one of the compartments of a medium-sized bag. I can even take handheld images with it.

Best

Jarek

What a neat contraption! I am now ashamed to have posted photos of my messy bellows solution.

Jarek

This is the lens clamp setup for the Elmaron. The 42.5mm diameter is standard across a number of projection lenses, so it's quite versatile for experimenting, but the need for a 52mm helicoid makes it a bit clunky compared to the M42 helicoids.

(Apologies for the colours, but taken under some fairly ugly LED room lights.)

Don't feel bad about ghetto adaptations as long as they do the job (and aren't too ghetto )

I looked at that collar but it was too expensive for what it is. Needing one for each lens I adapt would become very expensive. The thing for me is that if a lens takes too long to mount/fit onto a camera, it's less likely I will used it more than the initial "test shots". I desire to have my adapted lenses the same as native one: have a couple of them in my bag when on an outing and then simply reach for one and slip it on my camera, not threading, no futzing, no aligning and adjusting. If it ain't easy chances are I would just leave it at home. :-(

So, any lens that has passed the initial evaluation test as "worthy" get the full treatment to become a useful lens for photography and therefore has to be easy to mount or I loose interest.

 

[nigbat]

And, of course, there exist lenses which you're probably not going to be able to get close enough to the sensor to achieve infinity focus ... unless you have a lens clamp which allows them to sit inside the helicoid:



(Slightly OT, as no bubbles...)

 

[jarek leo]

I just have such a lens and am working hard to adapt it to Sony - a Polkinar 120mm f/1.8, an old Polish cinema projection lens.

Best

Jarek

And, of course, there exist lenses which you're probably not going to be able to get close enough to the sensor to achieve infinity focus ... unless you have a lens clamp which allows them to sit inside the helicoid:



(Slightly OT, as no bubbles...)

 

[nigbat]

The very cheap (Polish ?) Amar 105mm f4.5 seems to have a bit of the bubble character, though the max aperture isn't massively helpful in this respect. This is on M4/3:

 

[jarek leo]

Yes indeed! Amar was made by PZO (Polish Optical Works). I expect the Polkinar to be more of a Petzval than of Cooke triplet type.

Best

Jarek

The very cheap (Polish ?) Amar 105mm f4.5 seems to have a bit of the bubble character, though the max aperture isn't massively helpful in this respect. This is on M4/3:

 

[nigbat]

This wasn't really on my shopping list, as it doesn't make a huge amount of sense on M4/3, and I'm at least 12months away from being able to afford a Sony A7 ... but one of the desirable 67mm thread examples came up at a very reasonable price.

The bokeh wide open is interesting (and the in focus stuff is a bit dreamy) - sort of bubbles ?



Cropped -



At f4 it's pretty sharp:



Going to have to save up for that FF body now.

 

[jarek leo]

Interesting. An FF body will mate with the lens better. The original A7 is still a good camera and it is becoming increasingly affordable.

Best

Jarek

This wasn't really on my shopping list, as it doesn't make a huge amount of sense on M4/3, and I'm at least 12months away from being able to afford a Sony A7 ... but one of the desirable 67mm thread examples came up at a very reasonable price.

The bokeh wide open is interesting (and the in focus stuff is a bit dreamy) - sort of bubbles ?



Cropped -



At f4 it's pretty sharp:



Going to have to save up for that FF body now.

 

[Letsgokoulos]

This wasn't really on my shopping list, as it doesn't make a huge amount of sense on M4/3, and I'm at least 12months away from being able to afford a Sony A7 ... but one of the desirable 67mm thread examples came up at a very reasonable price.

The bokeh wide open is interesting (and the in focus stuff is a bit dreamy) - sort of bubbles ?

Cropped -

At f4 it's pretty sharp:

Going to have to save up for that FF body now.

I do not think this is what we would call "soap bubbles", but it certainly is a typical bokeh from the Takumar family...


Asahi Takumar SMC 55m f2

Marc

 

[Tom Caldwell]

You can focal reduce this lens on to a 4/3 sensor quite easily. Focal reduction adpaters are also physically shorter than normal adpaters.

 

[nigbat]

You can focal reduce this lens on to a 4/3 sensor quite easily. Focal reduction adpaters are also physically shorter than normal adpaters.

 

[jarek leo]

Now if we readdress the issue of soap buble bokeh, I wonder what effect a focal reducer has on bubbles. After all a triplet with a focal length reducer is no longer a triplet.

Jarel

You can focal reduce this lens on to a 4/3 sensor quite easily. Focal reduction adpaters are also physically shorter than normal adpaters.

--
Tom Caldwell

 

[Tom Caldwell]

You can focal reduce this lens on to a 4/3 sensor quite easily. Focal reduction adpaters are also physically shorter than normal adpaters.

 

[jarek leo]

Tom so you have the Canon EF 200mm f/2.0L IS USM lens. A wonderful piece of optical engineering. I have just begun testing it against its Nikon counterpart.

Best

Jarek

I don't have the cine-ektar but I don't have any doubts about why my Canon EF 200/2.0 is so excessively large compared to other 200mm lenses (the Canon FD 200/2.8 comes to mind). I know nothing about lens design (I would like to know more) but a thought bubble says that a large object lens cannot do any harm to the quality of the image captured.

Tom Caldwell

 

[verybiglebowski]

Hi Jarek,

Very cheap option to play with bokeh, including extreme “soap bubbles” is to modify Helios 44 lens. There are many possibilities what you can do with it, emphasizing under corrected SA, over corrected or even creating apodization filter inside, for the smooth rendition of the circular highlights.

You should find many references for those modifications readily on the web.

To understand how (not only) spherical aberration influences bokeh, I would recommend brilliant work from Jakub Trávník - http://jtra.cz/stuff/essays/bokeh/index.html

Belows are few examples of what modified Helios 44 can render:

Reversed front element (swirly effect)



Reversed rear element (extreme bubbles)



And home made apodization filter (smooth transition)



Kind regards,

Viktor

--
http:// www.photoworkshop.eu
http://verybiglobo.com/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/viktor_viktor/

 

[Tom Caldwell]

Tom so you have the Canon EF 200mm f/2.0L IS USM lens. A wonderful piece of optical engineering. I have just begun testing it against its Nikon counterpart.

Yes Jarek, and also an EF 400/2.8 "brute". I must have been feeling richer or was more foolish then - probably the latter In any case the 200/2.0 at least is capable of being hand-held - just.

Walking around with a camera is just "normal" these days - walking around with a camera attached to an EF 200/2.0 soon finds you a bunch of new, curious, friends. Mobile phone passe it is not. Outside the professional ring at a sports event you are unlikely to disappear into the crowd.

Tom Caldwell, post: 60240133, member: 272824"]
I don't have the cine-ektar but I don't have any doubts about why my Canon EF 200/2.0 is so excessively large compared to other 200mm lenses (the Canon FD 200/2.8 comes to mind). I know nothing about lens design (I would like to know more) but a thought bubble says that a large object lens cannot do any harm to the quality of the image captured.

Tom Caldwell

[/QUOTE]

 

[Tom Caldwell]

Now if we readdress the issue of soap buble bokeh, I wonder what effect a focal reducer has on bubbles. After all a triplet with a focal length reducer is no longer a triplet.

Jarel

You can focal reduce this lens on to a 4/3 sensor quite easily. Focal reduction adpaters are also physically shorter than normal adpaters.

--
Tom Caldwell

Interesting that you ask. Since this sub-thread I was "mucking about" with my Super-Takumar 35/2.0 focal reduced and I noticed "soap bubbles". I will down load the images on the "big computer" and post the effect. Deliberate out of focus and I will have to crop to show them properly.

However I can "force" bubbles on a lot of lenses - but these are not usually part of pretty images.

--
Tom Caldwell

 

[Tom Caldwell]

Now if we readdress the issue of soap buble bokeh, I wonder what effect a focal reducer has on bubbles. After all a triplet with a focal length reducer is no longer a triplet.

Jarel

You can focal reduce this lens on to a 4/3 sensor quite easily. Focal reduction adpaters are also physically shorter than normal adpaters.

--
Tom Caldwell

Dark very wet day - 18C though.

Tried the Super-Takumar (focal reduced RJ M42-M4/3) though a closed window - basically out of focus - looking for bubbles.

Heavy crop, two images with slightly different focus (crop roughly the same - the bubbles changed)







Also tried the Komura 105/2.0 in LTM - these following images are not cropped and focus made on reflection on window.

Nothing pretty or aesthetic just examples of the bubble bokeh produced.

--
Tom Caldwell

 

[Alan WF]

Now if we readdress the issue of soap buble bokeh, I wonder what effect a focal reducer has on bubbles. After all a triplet with a focal length reducer is no longer a triplet.

True, but ideally the triplet introduces spherical aberration and the focal reducer just makes the beam faster without introducing additional aberrations.

Of course, the key here is "ideally". Given that, I too would be interested to see examples of bokeh that change character significantly when a quality focal reducer is introduced. By "quality", I mean a Speed Booster or Lens Turbo II.

Regards,

Alan

 

[nigbat]

Well I can oblige for the Takumar.

I can't precisely duplicate the perspective, as the lens minimum focus distance won't allow me to get any closer, but it gives an idea.





And crop:

 

[jarek leo]

Thanks for the link to the excellent work from Jakub Travnik, and your invaluable comments. Here in Poland there are loads of Helios 44 lenses and there are sellers specializing in modified 58mm f/2s. They advertise them as either "Petzval-mode-enabled" (for swirly bokeh) or "Trioplan-mode-enabled" (for soap bubbles". They usually sell for equivalent of 60-70 USD, which in not unreasonable if the modification is professionally performed. I've seen very good - if a little bit overdone - results from either version.

Best

Jarek

Hi Jarek,

Very cheap option to play with bokeh, including extreme “soap bubbles” is to modify Helios 44 lens. There are many possibilities what you can do with it, emphasizing under corrected SA, over corrected or even creating apodization filter inside, for the smooth rendition of the circular highlights.

You should find many references for those modifications readily on the web.

To understand how (not only) spherical aberration influences bokeh, I would recommend brilliant work from Jakub Trávník - http://jtra.cz/stuff/essays/bokeh/index.html

Belows are few examples of what modified Helios 44 can render:

Reversed front element (swirly effect)



Reversed rear element (extreme bubbles)



And home made apodization filter (smooth transition)



Kind regards,

Viktor

--
http:// www.photoworkshop.eu
http://verybiglobo.com/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/viktor_viktor/