Does it make sense to use TSE lenses on non-shifting bellows?

[Macro guy]

I've been looking into expanding my capabilities a bit by getting the tilt/shift capabilities for my macro setup. I have two choices: I can get a tilt/shifting bellows, which aren't easy to find, at least not the ones that do rises and falls and up and down tilts. Most of the more affordable bellows only do swings and left to right tilts.

Alternatively, I thought about getting a tse lens and mounting it on my existing bellows. Has anyone done this? Does it work or do you get vignetting when tilting/shifting? Are there any other issues with using a TSE lens on the bellows?

Thanks

 

[kkx]

I have not done this. But from what I know/experience with bellow tilt/shift, it should works.

Depending on your use case, the tilt required can be much larger than what is supported on any standard T/S lens (normally max out below 10 degree, for example the canon 17mm is 6.5 degree I think). When I tested out macro tilt shift for deeper DOF in my macro shots (see eamples in https://flic.kr/s/aHsjvtpg49 ), I end up using very extreme tilt (30 or 40 degree). Depending on your focal length, your max tilt angle requirement will also change I think.

The other point is (unless you use an T/S adaptor), most T/S lens in the market are very short. So depending on what your use case is, a suitable lens might not exists.

I mount a flash holder and bracket on m macro rail to built an achoc T/S macro bellow using my enlarger lens. This is super flexible but very fiddly. Good for some fun project but not for serious work.

edit: fixed broken link.

 

[Macro guy]

I have not done this. But from what I know/experience with bellow tilt/shift, it should works.

Depending on your use case, the tilt required can be much larger than what is supported on any standard T/S lens (normally max out below 10 degree, for example the canon 17mm is 6.5 degree I think). When I tested out macro tilt shift for deeper DOF in my macro shots (see eamples in https://flic.kr/s/aHsjvtpg49 ), I end up using very extreme tilt (30 or 40 degree). Depending on your focal length, your max tilt angle requirement will also change I think.

The other point is (unless you use an T/S adaptor), most T/S lens in the market are very short. So depending on what your use case is, a suitable lens might not exists.

I mount a flash holder and bracket on m macro rail to built an achoc T/S macro bellow using my enlarger lens. This is super flexible but very fiddly. Good for some fun project but not for serious work.

edit: fixed broken link.

Thanks for the reply. I could get something like this or a Canon FD 35mm TS lens. I could adapt either one of them.

What about reverse mounting the TSE lens? Does that make sense?

 

[Michael Benveniste]

Alternatively, I thought about getting a tse lens and mounting it on my existing bellows. Has anyone done this? Does it work or do you get vignetting when tilting/shifting? Are there any other issues with using a TSE lens on the bellows?

I don't have a TS-E lens. Thatshouldn't be surprising since I use Nikon gear. What I do have is an 85mm f/2.8D PC lens and a PB-4 bellows. That particular combination is a bit awkward to use, since the levers in the front of the bellows fight for space with the lens itself. With the lens mounted directly to the bellows the shift lever was unusable, and I had to fidget with the tilt lever a bit to mount or unmount the lens. The easiest way to address that is to add a short extension tube; I'll probably pick up a PK-11a at some point since that tube has a slightly wider diameter than the tubes I already own.

As you add extension, the image circle of a lens becomes larger. While I wouldn't expect vignetting to be an issue with the swings and tilts available on a TS-E lens, I didn't expect my Nikkor to vignette on a set of Kenko tubes either. As with other "off label" use, you'd have to experiment with the exact equipment to be sure.

 

[Macro guy]

Alternatively, I thought about getting a tse lens and mounting it on my existing bellows. Has anyone done this? Does it work or do you get vignetting when tilting/shifting? Are there any other issues with using a TSE lens on the bellows?

I don't have a TS-E lens. Thatshouldn't be surprising since I use Nikon gear. What I do have is an 85mm f/2.8D PC lens and a PB-4 bellows. That particular combination is a bit awkward to use, since the levers in the front of the bellows fight for space with the lens itself. With the lens mounted directly to the bellows the shift lever was unusable, and I had to fidget with the tilt lever a bit to mount or unmount the lens. The easiest way to address that is to add a short extension tube; I'll probably pick up a PK-11a at some point since that tube has a slightly wider diameter than the tubes I already own.

As you add extension, the image circle of a lens becomes larger. While I wouldn't expect vignetting to be an issue with the swings and tilts available on a TS-E lens, I didn't expect my Nikkor to vignette on a set of Kenko tubes either. As with other "off label" use, you'd have to experiment with the exact equipment to be sure.

 

[Michael Benveniste]

My understanding that the Nikon bellows and the Minolta bellows III only offer lateral shifts and tilts. What about vertical rises and falls and vertical tilts?

Your understanding is correct at least as far as the PB-4. So far, I haven't felt the need for those movements beyond what the 85mm PC can do. If I did, I'd probably try to figure out how to support the bellows sideways. Althernatively, I could get something like this, mount the dSLR to the back of my 4x5" Wista, use a 120mm f/5.6 AM-Nikkor and hope for the best.

--
Such commentary has become ubiquitous on the Internet and is widely perceived to carry no indicium of reliability and little weight. (Digital Media News v. Escape Media Group, May 2014).

 

[Macro guy]

My understanding that the Nikon bellows and the Minolta bellows III only offer lateral shifts and tilts. What about vertical rises and falls and vertical tilts?

Your understanding is correct at least as far as the PB-4. So far, I haven't felt the need for those movements beyond what the 85mm PC can do. If I did, I'd probably try to figure out how to support the bellows sideways. Althernatively, I could get something like this, mount the dSLR to the back of my 4x5" Wista, use a 120mm f/5.6 AM-Nikkor and hope for the best.

I've looked at that and that's a whole other can of worms and a major PITA. I'm thinking about perhaps getting a med format bellows. There are a few models that will do both lateral and vertical shifts and tilts. Perhaps that would be the best way to go.

 

[petrochemist]

I have not done this. But from what I know/experience with bellow tilt/shift, it should works.

Depending on your use case, the tilt required can be much larger than what is supported on any standard T/S lens (normally max out below 10 degree, for example the canon 17mm is 6.5 degree I think). When I tested out macro tilt shift for deeper DOF in my macro shots (see eamples in https://flic.kr/s/aHsjvtpg49 ), I end up using very extreme tilt (30 or 40 degree). Depending on your focal length, your max tilt angle requirement will also change I think.

The other point is (unless you use an T/S adaptor), most T/S lens in the market are very short. So depending on what your use case is, a suitable lens might not exists.

I mount a flash holder and bracket on m macro rail to built an achoc T/S macro bellow using my enlarger lens. This is super flexible but very fiddly. Good for some fun project but not for serious work.

edit: fixed broken link.

Thanks for the reply. I could get something like this or a Canon FD 35mm TS lens. I could adapt either one of them.

What about reverse mounting the TSE lens? Does that make sense?

I don't have a TS lens (they're rather expensive - generally over $1000) but I think reverse mounting one will stop the movements having any effect on the glass (they'll just move the mount).

If you have a large format camera you could modify that to take your digital body. I might get round to doing that ONE day with mine.

A better solution is to get one of the tilt shift adapters made to use SLR lenses on mirrorless cameras. (Tilt only versions start ~$25, while with the shift they're about $250). Reversing a lens on this just needs a reversing ring & uses all the movements. Fitting the adapter to your bellows might be more tricky. If you cant find a production adapter you can get a custom one made by SRB (or perhaps RAF camera on e-bay.) I suspect cost would be comfortably under $200.

Several years ago I shot some close-up shots using a tilt adapter. IIRC none where more than 1/3 or perhaps 1/2 life size so not actually macro. The tilt did seem to improve matters with DOF... I must give it another go now I have extension tubes to fit between the adapter & the camera.