Aperture Ring [A] on Pana/Leica 15mm f1.7

[Modern Jess]

I bought the Pana/Leica 15mm f1.7 (HX015) lens primary because I was smitten with the control interface on the Leica Q, and didn't really want to sink $4k (or more) into a Leica Q. Specifically, the ability to control the most important camera functions via lens-mounted controls. For me, by far THE most important control is aperture -- I'm an aperture kind of guy, and I'm generally happy to have the camera pick an appropriate shutter speed (and maybe ISO) based on my aperture preference for whatever photo I happen to be composing. I bounce around the aperture range a lot when I'm doing serious composition.

However, when I'm just shooting quick gimme shots (street, random pictures of my wife or my dogs, etc) I'm just as likely to want to forego control of aperture as well, dropping the camera into P. On the Pana/Leica 15mm lens, though, there's this wonderful red [A] on the aperture ring, which (and I think everyone agrees on this point) stands for Auto. This was, in fact, The Thing that made my buy this lens: the promise of easily bouncing around the aperture range with the twist of the ring, or simply dropping into full auto by rotating all the way to the right. Just like on the Leica Q.

Only it doesn't work.

In Aperture Priority mode on the camera, with the lens in [A] auto mode, the f stop stubbornly refuses to be anything other than f1.7, even when pointed at bright subjects that push the shutter speed to ridiculously fast levels. In other modes (save for M) the aperture ring does nothing at all.

The manual for this lens, while brief, has this to say:

• If you set the camera to Aperture-Priority AE Mode or Manual Exposure Mode, the aperture value of the ring will be enabled.
• If you set the position of the aperture ring to [A], the aperture value of the camera will be enabled.

That's pretty clear and unambiguous. Panasonic says it works. Clearly, it doesn't. Or at least, I haven't managed to make it work. I've tried this on the GM5, GX8, and GX85. Same results on each one: the [A] position on the aperture ring is always f1.7.

I think what I'm looking for most with this post is reassurance that I'm not crazy. It would be lovely if someone told me the Secret Setting that makes this work, but I think I might have already resigned myself to the fact that it's a lost cause.

And if it's a lost cause, shame on Panasonic for promising otherwise.

 

[john isaacs]

The [A] setting does not change the camera exposure mode, but instead returns the aperture control to the camera. As the manual states, the aperture ring can be used to set aperture in A or M mode. If in A or M mode, setting the ring to an aperture value overrides the setting in the camera body. Setting the ring to [A] returns control of aperture to the camera body. Setting the exposure mode to P or S overrides the aperture ring with automatic aperture selection.

It would be interesting if the lens works the way you suggest, but then there would be no mechanism to override the aperture ring on the lens and set aperture with the camera body when in A or M mode.

 

[tt321]

When you set the ring to A and the camera to A mode, you cannot set aperture from the body?

What the manual says is this:

Aperture ring only works in A and M modes. In other modes, the aperture is set by the body whatever the lens ring is set to (including A and numbers). So both A and numbers on the lens ring only have relevance in A and M modes, and in these modes:

1. Shooting aperture = aperture value set on lens ring, if the ring is set to a number.

2. Shooting aperture = aperture value chosen on the body, if the ring is set to A.

You don't turn the camera to P mode by setting the lens ring to A (unlike for the Pentax Super Program). You turn the camera to P mode by using the mode dial on the camera.

This ring's usefulness is quite subtle - you can set aperture when the camera is off. The A position is even more useless on an already not very useful ring.

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/xiafei/

 

[Elmokki]

The manual for this lens, while brief, has this to say:

• If you set the camera to Aperture-Priority AE Mode or Manual Exposure Mode, the aperture value of the ring will be enabled.
• If you set the position of the aperture ring to [A], the aperture value of the camera will be enabled.

My understanding of this, and English is not my first language, is that if you use aperture priority (or full manual):

• You can control aperture from the aperture ring as long as it is not set to [A]
• You can control aperture from the camera when the aperture ring is set to [A]. What this means is that the lens works just like it would if it had no aperture ring at all.

I really don't think the manual notes you pasted unambiguously say that you can make the aperture automatic in aperture priority mode. It think it states just that you'll relinquish the aperture control from lens to camera if you set it to [A] and thus the only benefit of the aperture ring is that it can replace using a camera slider for the exact same feature.

 

[Terminal Boy]

That's pretty clear and unambiguous. Panasonic says it works. Clearly, it doesn't. Or at least, I haven't managed to make it work. I've tried this on the GM5, GX8, and GX85. Same results on each one: the [A] position on the aperture ring is always f1.7.

When the Aperture Ring on the 15mm PL is set to A with the camera body set to A or M modes, you control Aperture via the camera controls.

In A or M modes, moving the Aperutre Ring on the lens to a number sets the Aperture to equal that number.

This the way my 15mm PL operates on my GM5 and G85 (and my now sold G7 worked the same too).

 

[Pete_W]

However, when I'm just shooting quick gimme shots (street, random pictures of my wife or my dogs, etc) I'm just as likely to want to forego control of aperture as well, dropping the camera into P. On the Pana/Leica 15mm lens, though, there's this wonderful red [A] on the aperture ring, which (and I think everyone agrees on this point) stands for Auto. This was, in fact, The Thing that made my buy this lens: the promise of easily bouncing around the aperture range with the twist of the ring, or simply dropping into full auto by rotating all the way to the right. Just like on the Leica Q.

Only it doesn't work.

Others have explained the logic of the how the lens works, so I just wanted to add one thing in response to your comments quoted above.

You still get what you wanted with this lens. It's just a simple matter of setting the camera to A and turning the lens ring to set your aperture. And when you want to go fully auto, just set the camera to P. You don't need to turn the lens ring around to A first. Just leave it wherever it is.

The only point of A on the lens is to let the user set aperture from the camera body.

 

[Terminal Boy]

Others have explained the logic of the how the lens works, so I just wanted to add one thing in response to your comments quoted above.

You still get what you wanted with this lens. It's just a simple matter of setting the camera to A and turning the lens ring to set your aperture. And when you want to go fully auto, just set the camera to P. You don't need to turn the lens ring around to A first. Just leave it wherever it is.

The only point of A on the lens is to let the user set aperture from the camera body.

 

[Starflash127]

Rather than A, perhaps B (Body) or C (Camera) would have been more "intuitive" in setting aperture control.

 

[Modern Jess]

Okay, fair enough. Silly me for thinking it would work like the Leica Q or the Lumix LX100, both of which have the same style aperture ring with a red [A] at the end, and both of which drop the camera into Aperture Auto in that position. If the shutter dial on either of those is set to a similar red [A], the camera is in full auto.

Of course, both of those cameras forego the mode dial completely. This interface approach greatly appeals to me, so perhaps I just wanted it to be true using a lens that has the same pedigree and the same markings.

In retrospect, [A] seems a very poor choice for this particular lens.

I still don't see any reason why it couldn't work this way, even if it doesn't. It's not like the mode dial has any actual mechanical significance -- it's just an input to a microcontroller. For instance, the C mode on the dial can actually be one of several different modes, depending on what you've saved for C. By the same token, I see no reason why the camera couldn't drop into an aperture auto mode when the aperture ring is in the [A] position, regardless of what position the mode dial is in. It's just firmware.

Oh well. Thanks for the input, regardless.

 

[Zensu11]

Okay, fair enough. Silly me for thinking it would work like the Leica Q or the Lumix LX100, both of which have the same style aperture ring with a red [A] at the end, and both of which drop the camera into Aperture Auto in that position. If the shutter dial on either of those is set to a similar red [A], the camera is in full auto.

Of course, both of those cameras forego the mode dial completely. This interface approach greatly appeals to me, so perhaps I just wanted it to be true using a lens that has the same pedigree and the same markings.

In retrospect, [A] seems a very poor choice for this particular lens.

I still don't see any reason why it couldn't work this way, even if it doesn't. It's not like the mode dial has any actual mechanical significance -- it's just an input to a microcontroller. For instance, the C mode on the dial can actually be one of several different modes, depending on what you've saved for C. By the same token, I see no reason why the camera couldn't drop into an aperture auto mode when the aperture ring is in the [A] position, regardless of what position the mode dial is in. It's just firmware.

Oh well. Thanks for the input, regardless.

Agree this should be updated in Firmware to allow the user to set options regarding the "A" on the lens aperture ring. Why not let the user decide how he wants this configured?

 

[camerosity]

There is no such mode as "Aperture auto mode" other than Shutter Priority or Program. If you leave the camera dial on A you are still in Manual control of the aperture, regardless of the position of the aperture ring on the lens. I shoot in A and use the aperture ring on the 15mm 1.7 to choose the aperture. Easy. I've never put it in to A once and probably never will.

 

[addlightness]

For people like me who uses both Oly and Pany bodies and lenses, it's more convenient/consistent to assign one of the dials to control Av and simply set the aperture ring to [A] to avoid confusion.

For example, I shoot PEN-F and GX85 with O25/45/75 and P14/15. I control Av with the rear dial so I don't have to remember which lens is being used.

However on my GM1, there is no rear dial, and the aperture ring on the 15 becomes a nice 'dial'.

 

[Modern Jess]

There is no such mode as "Aperture auto mode" other than Shutter Priority or Program.

In other words, Aperture Auto does in fact exist.

I've never put it in to A once and probably never will.

Which strongly suggests that it is in fact useless, begging the question why it is present on the aperture ring at all.

 

[Modern Jess]

For example, I shoot PEN-F and GX85 with O25/45/75 and P14/15. I control Av with the rear dial so I don't have to remember which lens is being used.

Doesn't really apply to me. I take 90% of my shots with the PL 15mm, and 100% with Lumix cameras. I also have a strong preference for an aperture ring located on the lens, which is why I bought this particular lens.

 

[Modern Jess]

A further thought: the functionality I've described (that is, the way I wish it worked) would probably be better served in P mode. If I were king, I would decree that in Program mode with the aperture ring on [A], the camera would be full auto. If the aperture ring were set to a specific f-stop, the aperture ring setting would override the program mode f-stop choice and adjust the other parameters to suit that f-stop. If the aperture ring was then rotated back to [A], it would go back to full auto.

This arrangement sidesteps potential user interface weirdness and sticks to the general spirit of Program mode.

 

[Elmokki]

A further thought: the functionality I've described (that is, the way I wish it worked) would probably be better served in P mode. If I were king, I would decree that in Program mode with the aperture ring on [A], the camera would be full auto. If the aperture ring were set to a specific f-stop, the aperture ring setting would override the program mode f-stop choice and adjust the other parameters to suit that f-stop. If the aperture ring was then rotated back to [A], it would go back to full auto.

This arrangement sidesteps potential user interface weirdness and sticks to the general spirit of Program mode.

That would, indeed, make a lot of sense. To be fair it's not like this is even nearly the only thing that would be fairly simple to implement in terms of coding unless the camera interfaces are a massive mess. It's amazing that things like minimum shutter speed for A or P modes aren't available in every camera when it's definitely an useful feature and should be trivial to implement.

 

[tkbslc]

The problem with the logic here is that many (all?) m4/3 cameras have a physical mode dial.

If my dial says M, and the lens says A, should the exposure to be controlled automatically, even though the camera is set for manual? And if so, does it switch to shutter priority or P?

If I'm in aperture priority mode, which tells the camera that you will pick the aperture, but then you set the lens to auto aperture, which setting wins?

Leica Q has been build from the ground up for one lens and it has a design that doesn't use a mode dial. So your desired control scheme is well implemented there. But since m4/3 has a control scheme that uses a mode dial and only a few lenses have aperture rings, there isn't much you can do to logically make m4/3 work that way.

 

[Modern Jess]

If my dial says M, and the lens says A, should the exposure to be controlled automatically, even though the camera is set for manual?

This doesn't seem weird to me. You're in M, but you've temporarily (at least while the aperture ring is set to [A]) asked the camera to take care of aperture. Presumably, manual changes to shutter speed would then be reflected with a suitable aperture. If you then moved the aperture ring from [A] to a specific f-stop, then you're back in full manual. There's no contradiction here. The [A] simply acts as an override, the same way that countless other settings can be overridden (e.g. AE lock, AF lock, focus area, etc). This does not represent any kind of radical departure from previous norms.

And if so, does it switch to shutter priority or P?

If I were designing it, I would design it such that in Manual mode with the aperture ring on [A], the camera would effectively be in shutter priority mode, not program mode.

Likewise, in Program mode with the aperture ring set to a specific f-stop, it would still be Program but fixed at that f-stop. With the aperture ring set to [A], it's full Program mode. Again, this does not seem weird to me -- [A] on the aperture ring would simply stand for Auto.

If I'm in aperture priority mode, which tells the camera that you will pick the aperture, but then you set the lens to auto aperture, which setting wins?

Again, not especially hard to imagine what would happen here. In Aperture priority mode with the aperture ring set to [A], the camera would choose the aperture [A]utomatically. If it was set to a specific f-stop, then it uses that f-stop. There's no contradiction here if one views the aperture ring [A] as an override.

That said, and as I stated above, I think perhaps this particular functionality would be better situated in Program mode, rather than Aperture Priority mode.

Leica Q has been build from the ground up for one lens and it has a design that doesn't use a mode dial. So your desired control scheme is well implemented there.

Agreed. I think it's a great design, and makes more sense in that context. That said, the presence of a mode dial, to me, doesn't present a grand contradiction. There are lots of cases where one setting can nullify or override another. I'm proposing a variation on that theme that would allow an otherwise pointless [A] position on the PL 15mm lens to be more useful than it currently is.

But since m4/3 has a control scheme that uses a mode dial and only a few lenses have aperture rings, there isn't much you can do to logically make m4/3 work that way.

Disagreed. I just layed out exactly what you can do to logically make m4/3 work that way. It wasn't even hard.

 

[DP13Photo]

Q.

Only it doesn't work.

In Aperture Priority mode on the camera, with the lens in [A] auto mode, the f stop stubbornly refuses to be anything other than f1.7, even when pointed at bright subjects that push the shutter speed to ridiculously fast levels. In other modes (save for M) the aperture ring does nothing at all.

I bought a used one so I thought it was defective when it didn't work on my Pen F. I can control the aperture with the dial on camera but not with the lens ring aperture.

However it does work on my GX85 in A mode, and it's pretty cool. Two bands appear on the LCD one for aperture and the other shutter speed and they move in opposite directions when you turn the aperture dial on the lens. The top one is black with white numbers and the bottom one is gray with white numbers. If you push the display button you can have it removed from the LCD so it doesn't obscure the image.

 

[brentbrent]

If I were designing it, I would design it such that in Manual mode with the aperture ring on [A], the camera would effectively be in shutter priority mode, not program mode.
Likewise, in Program mode with the aperture ring set to a specific f-stop, it would still be Program but fixed at that f-stop. With the aperture ring set to [A], it's full Program mode. Again, this does not seem weird to me -- [A] on the aperture ring would simply stand for Auto.

In Aperture priority mode with the aperture ring set to [A], the camera would choose the aperture [A]utomatically. If it was set to a specific f-stop, then it uses that f-stop. There's no contradiction here if one views the aperture ring [A] as an override.

I've added bold to note that you point out what the camera would do if the mode dial were set to M or P, but you aren't specific about what the camera would do if the mode dial were set to Av. Should it switch to S? To P? To iA? Should the aperture ring on the lens have A1, A2, and A3 settings to let you choose between those?

The "A" setting on the lens ring is an override - it is an override of the aperture ring functionality, essentially an on/off switch. Panasonic could have put a separate on/off switch on the lens barrel to do this, but the way they did it makes more sense. For those who prefer not to use the ring on the lens at all, that on/off switch is needed. You've got the mode dial to select the mode you want. I understand from your first post that you for some reason would like to control the mode (at least partially) from the lens, but how hard is it to switch the mode dial with your right hand? There are plenty of other controls that presumably you must use your right hand to operate.