indoor sports photography for ~$1000: one solution

[Brian Gill]

I've had some good advice from people on this forum, so I'm posting this to inform anyone who might be facing a similar challenge.

I shoot my daughter's synchronized swimming team. Synchronized swimming can produce some beautiful photographs, but like many indoor sports it poses a major challenge for most cameras, It requires a fast shutter speed and a rapid frame rate in weak light, usually from a distance.

Existing zoom lenses with an appropriate reach (50-150 or 70-200) never have apertures larger than f2.8. I discovered that f2.8 can't bring in enough light to any sensor smaller than full frame indoors, given that I need a shutter speed of 1/400 of a second or faster. Getting a full-frame camera that shoots at least 6fps and a 70-200 f2.8 lens would run $2500+, which was way out of my price range.

At the suggestion of someone on DPReview, I investigated shooting with a prime on APS-C. I shot for a while with a Sony a5100 and the 50mm f1.8 (75mm equivalent). The results were quite good except that I wanted a bit more reach than what I could get with a 50mm lens. (At the time, the Sony 85mm 1.8 didn't yet exist.) I later sold my Sony kit and replaced it with a Samsung NX500 and Samsung's 85mm 1.4 lens. Now I can shoot indoor sports at 9fps and gather more light than would be possible even on a full-frame camera with a 2.8 zoom. The sensor is 28mp, which gives me the opportunity to zoom in closer by cropping. In effect I can double the reach of the lens to 170mm (255mm equivalent) with 7mp images. The only real disadvantage is that shooting at f1.4-f2.0 creates a pretty shallow depth of field. Until I've got $2500 or more to invest in a full-frame camera, I'm quite happy with the results. Sample below.

 

[wasserball]

You are right. You need a fast lens. I shoot D3s with 85mm f1.8G lens. But, I rarely have to use f1.8, normally f2.8 is fast enough when ISO is at 6400. Also, shoot in manual mode and let ISO adjust to your speed and f stop.

 

[BillyBobSenna]

I disagree with your comments about crop sensor indoor sports photography with a 2.8 lens. I have shot a lot of indoor swimming with Nikon D70s, D90, D7000, D7200, and D500 with a 70-200 f2.8 lens. With this combination I am typically shooting ISO 1600 and 1/500 second. If you want take out a little noise you can do that in Lightroom.

 

[scokill]

I disagree with your comments about crop sensor indoor sports photography with a 2.8 lens. I have shot a lot of indoor swimming with Nikon D70s, D90, D7000, D7200, and D500 with a 70-200 f2.8 lens. With this combination I am typically shooting ISO 1600 and 1/500 second. If you want take out a little noise you can do that in Lightroom.

 

[BillyBobSenna]

I disagree with your comments about crop sensor indoor sports photography with a 2.8 lens. I have shot a lot of indoor swimming with Nikon D70s, D90, D7000, D7200, and D500 with a 70-200 f2.8 lens. With this combination I am typically shooting ISO 1600 and 1/500 second. If you want take out a little noise you can do that in Lightroom.

 

[jjandj]

You must have some well lit pools in Michigan! I shoot indoor swim meets and would love to have enough light to shoot at ISO 1600! I find a SS of 1/800 to be the slowest I can use and still freeze action (particularly arms and legs). 1/400 would only work for the 8 & Under age group (and I often do 'cheat' and use a slower shutter speed for the younger age groups).

As a recent example, in this photo of my daughter I 'cheated' with the SS and only used 1/640 because it was a night-time meet, so we had no advantage of some ambient light from the windows. I wanted to keep the ISO as low as possible so did not use SS=1/800 or 1/1000, like I normally would. Luckily, with SS=1/640, I only needed ISO 2800. But, notice the blur in the arm motion. Sure, the swim cap is sharp, but, ideally I'd like to freeze the arm motion as well. After this last meet I've vowed to never shoot swims of my daughter at a SS slower than 1/800 or 1/1000.


SS-1/640 too slow. Swim cap is sharp, motion blur in arms. ISO 2800. Relatively well lit pool (Boston University)

As far as Crop vs, FF sensor, I'm in the camp that for indoor swim meets FF is the best way to go. I rented a D7200 the 1st day of this meet (a Friday with just a few distance events). I wanted the extra 1.5X reach, but, I could not tolerate the extra noise. I'm probably too much of a pixel peeper, but, I did not use the D7200 during the next two days of my rental for this meet, and stuck with my D750 (sort of a wasted rental!)

As far as price: I was able to get a used D750 and a used Nikon 70-200 f2.8 G VR II for a tad under $2200. Yes, it is a lot of money, but, my daughter will be swimming for 4.5 more years before she leaves for college, so, we made family sacrifices to get the camera and lens that will allow us to get good photos from far away (as you know, swim parents are not allowed on the pool deck).

We have used ISOs as high as 8,000 to 10,000 on the D750 and still obtained 'good enough' photos after some noise reduction.

Note that we still have to use such high ISOs at what I consider pretty well lit pools like BU (see photo below that sets the scene at the BU pool. It also gives you an idea how far away we must sit). This is a poorly stitched together panorama of 3 shots (note the bad job on the railing). This was done as "Merge to Panorama in PS CC" from LR. I have since found that Affinity Photo does a MUCH BETTER job of stitching together panoramas and will never use LR/PS for that task anymore. This photo is one of the few times we could use an ISO less than 1600, because we could use a SS=1/60, since we did not care about freezing motion. But, compared to some of the YMCA pools, this is a very well lit pool. Even so, I was not satisfied with the 'extra' noise from the D7200, so, I agree with the original poster's belief that FF would be the way to go.



Note that before we strained the family budget to get the used D750 and 70-200 2.8, we tried using our u43 camera (a GH3). We found that the only lens that gave acceptable results was the Oly 75 at f1.8. This has an equivalent reach of a 150 mm on FF. Example below: With the GH3 we would use an even slower SS (too slow) like the 1/250 in this shot. This was another college pool with a lot of ambient light on a bright day. But, the compromises were: too slow SS and not enough reach. It was after this year of frustration trying to get good action shots with our u43 camera, that we decided to get a used FF rig.


u43 camera (GH3) but too slow SS (1/250). Noise OK b/c ISO at 200, but too much motion blur and not enough reach.

Below is what we consider a 'better' photo that used a SS of 1/800: The motion is frozen but we had to go to ISO 3200. The noise is still acceptable, but, with a crop camera (like a D7200) the noise would probably have required 'too much' noise reduction for our liking?


SS=1/800, ISO 3200. Focus on the 2nd swimmer from the bottom.

One last shot at SS=1/1000. It really helps to be able to shoot at such a fast SS, and...IMHO that means using a FF camera for acceptable results? But, this was one of our team's best swimmers (qualified for Y National meet) and for him, SS=1/1000 is often not fast enough!) ;-)


SS=1/1000 almost not fast enough for very fast swimmers. ISO 3200.

So, in summary: I believe the OP's desire to use SS=1/800 is probably correct. At any indoor venue with such a high SS, there will always be trade offs. If you can get close enough to use fixed focal length lenses with very fast apertures, that's one route. Or, for those 'special' once-in a season meets, you can do what I do and rent a lens from lensrentals.com. I plan to rent a Sigma 120-300 f2.8 for our League Champs meet in a few weeks. We need the extra reach that going from 200 mm to 300 mm will give us. I tried renting the D7200 to get 300 mm of reach out of our used 70-200, but...I could not tolerate the added noise. BTW, we obtained our used Nikon 70-200 f2.8 from lensauthority.com, which is the outfit associated with lensrentals.com. We got a great price on the 70-200. It was listed as Cosmetics="Flawed", but Glass="Exceptional". The cosmetics amounted to some visible wear, but, who cares! The glass was, and is, great. Lensauthority.com also allows you to send the lens back for any reason within 2 days, so, you can't get stuck with 'a lemon'. But, with how thoroughly lensrentals.com tests their lenses, I have no worries about EVER getting a lemon from lensauthority.com.

Wow...too long! But, for others who need to shoot indoor sports on a budget: Test what works for you by first renting, and then buy Refurbished or used. I've had good luck using that route.

 

[BillyBobSenna]

Nice post jj. Thanks for all the detail. I think there are a couple significant differences in our swim photos. I am typically pool side and not trying to freeze all the action. Indoor action photography is all about trade-offs. In addition, I don't mind a little noise in my photos.

Below is a photo taken 5 years ago with a crop body camera of the our HS swimmer winning the '12 Michigan 500 yd state championship. He swam at the Olympic trials last summer. Not everything is sharp however I think it is OK.


Nikon D7000 with 70-200 VR1. ISO 1600 1/640 sec

The next photo of my daughter from 2015 was taken in a pool with very strange lighting that was dark on the ends an bright in the middle. This was taken with a D750 at ISO 3200 1/640 sec. Again, not perfectly sharp however I think it captures the moment.




D750 ISO 3200 70-200 VR2

The photo below of our HS's '16 100 yd Breast State Champion was taken with a crop body D500 at ISO 3200 1/500sec in a dimly lit pool. An issue with photographing this swimmer is she never exposes her face when she swims.




D500 70-200 VR2 ISO 3200 1/500sec

I have never tried to stitch a photo using anything other than LR and PS. Below is a photo taken last year a the Holland Michigan swim meet. They have a nice community pool with windows to the outside. I always look forward to this meet since it is a well lit pool during the daytime.


2016 Girls Holland Michigan Invite

In the end, I don't think there is any right or wrong answer. Just go out and shoot and enjoy.



-- Bill - Beverly Hills, MI
http://billgulkerphotography.com/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/wgulker/albums

 

[jjandj]

Really nice swim photos! You are really lucky to be able to get on deck to take some photos. I envy you that. I'm always far away in the stands. However, immediately below is one photo taken from a simple grandstand at a local Y (New Bedford Y, NB MA). This is almost like being on deck. But, I always serve as a timer at all the meets except the 'big ones', so, the only chance I get for some photos at the smaller venues when the bleachers are close to the pool is during warm-ups. This pool has a wall of windows at one end, and it was a sunny day. So, the light was much better than normal.


Not too often that can take photos when seated in a grandstand on a pool deck. NBY, MA: warmups for the 2016 Freestyle Frenzy.

As far as Panos, I've found Affinity Photo does a great job and makes it dead easy to correct issues in panoramas. It is not expensive ($49), and I got it on sale for $39 a while ago. I have not done much with it, but...I really do like its interface for Panos:

It is very easy to fix common mis-alignments in the panos. I prefer it to LR/PS now (though I do typically save it as a TIFF and do the rest of the work back in LR). I should spend some more time playing with Affinity, but...there is never enough time in a day.

Our daughter is still in 8th grade, so she is missing all the State Meets here in RI. The Division State meets are this weekend (Div III Friday, Div II today, Div I Sunday). Next year I expect to have a lot more chances to catch some more swim action shots when she is in HS.

We still have our League Champs meet coming up, as well as the New England Y Champs meet in March. My daughter has qualified for NE Champs Meet in the 100 Fly as a 13 yr old in the 13-14 age group. That pool is pretty well lit for the Prelims in the morning (if it is a bright day) but, not so well for the evening finals. The NE Y Champs meet is at the Zeisiger Aquatics Center at MIT.

I will be renting the Sigma 120-300 f2.8 for our league Champs meet, so, I'll post some examples of how that works out. That meet is at Boston University, so, I know I'll be sitting far away and above the action...sigh....

 

[Brian Gill]

Thanks, guys, for the feedback, and apologies for the slow reply (I somehow missed the responses until now). Scokill is right: In the pools where I'm shooting (usually from a considerable distance), using APS-C sensor and f2.0 often requires ISO of 2000+. At f2.8 and APS-C, the ISO would need to be far too high.

So I'm sticking with my 85mm f1.4 prime until I can afford a full-frame camera. At that point, I expect that 70-200 f2.8 will work well.

I disagree with your comments about crop sensor indoor sports photography with a 2.8 lens. I have shot a lot of indoor swimming with Nikon D70s, D90, D7000, D7200, and D500 with a 70-200 f2.8 lens. With this combination I am typically shooting ISO 1600 and 1/500 second. If you want take out a little noise you can do that in Lightroom.

--
Bill - Beverly Hills, MI
http://billgulkerphotography.com/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/wgulker/albums

I've shot with all of those except D70. I think the point is that if you have a choice and budget FF will always be better. You can do the equivalent reach, aperture, etc. but all things being equal, FF will always be 1+ stops better within same generation sensor and hold colors better. f2.8 1/500 ISO1600 is pretty good light in my book. The OPs example has about 4x less light.

 

[beagle1]

Thanks, guys, for the feedback, and apologies for the slow reply (I somehow missed the responses until now). Scokill is right: In the pools where I'm shooting (usually from a considerable distance), using APS-C sensor and f2.0 often requires ISO of 2000+. At f2.8 and APS-C, the ISO would need to be far too high.

So I'm sticking with my 85mm f1.4 prime until I can afford a full-frame camera. At that point, I expect that 70-200 f2.8 will work well.

I disagree with your comments about crop sensor indoor sports photography with a 2.8 lens. I have shot a lot of indoor swimming with Nikon D70s, D90, D7000, D7200, and D500 with a 70-200 f2.8 lens. With this combination I am typically shooting ISO 1600 and 1/500 second. If you want take out a little noise you can do that in Lightroom.

--

c'mon ... iso more than 2,000 .......... "IQ" image quality

www.flickr.com/photos/mmirrorless

 

[BillyBobSenna]

Thanks, guys, for the feedback, and apologies for the slow reply (I somehow missed the responses until now). Scokill is right: In the pools where I'm shooting (usually from a considerable distance), using APS-C sensor and f2.0 often requires ISO of 2000+. At f2.8 and APS-C, the ISO would need to be far too high.

So I'm sticking with my 85mm f1.4 prime until I can afford a full-frame camera. At that point, I expect that 70-200 f2.8 will work well.

I disagree with your comments about crop sensor indoor sports photography with a 2.8 lens. I have shot a lot of indoor swimming with Nikon D70s, D90, D7000, D7200, and D500 with a 70-200 f2.8 lens. With this combination I am typically shooting ISO 1600 and 1/500 second. If you want take out a little noise you can do that in Lightroom.

--

c'mon ... iso more than 2,000 .......... "IQ" image quality

www.flickr.com/photos/mmirrorless

I could live to stay under ISO2000 all the time however I am very happy with ISO3200 on my D7200 and D500. The sensors in these cameras and post processing software help make ISO3200 photos very nice.

 

[jkim02165]

Hi Bill, I’m looking for some tips on shooting sports (mostly indoor swimming and outdoor soccer), and came across this thread from last year. You have some really fantistic sports photos! It sounds like you’ve shot with several different Nikon bodies, and was wondering whether you seen a significant improvement with the D500 over the D7200. I’m currently using the D7500 (essentially, newer version of the D7200), primarily with a Tamron 70-200 2.8 g2 lens, and considering upgrading to the D500 to hopefully increase my “keeper” rate. I estimate that 20 to 30% of my action shots are out of focus (I typically use group autofocus when there are several people in the frame, as in soccer, and use 3D focus when there is a single subject in view as in swimming). Based on reviews, it sounds like the D500 does a better job of locking focus and tracking moving subjects, and was wondering if you found that to be true in your experience. Also, have you tried any of the Sony mirrorless cameras for sports (I’m considering the a7iii as well), and if so, how do you think the autofocus and tracking compares? Thanks,

Joe

 

[BillyBobSenna]

Hi Bill, I’m looking for some tips on shooting sports (mostly indoor swimming and outdoor soccer), and came across this thread from last year. You have some really fantistic sports photos! It sounds like you’ve shot with several different Nikon bodies, and was wondering whether you seen a significant improvement with the D500 over the D7200. I’m currently using the D7500 (essentially, newer version of the D7200), primarily with a Tamron 70-200 2.8 g2 lens, and considering upgrading to the D500 to hopefully increase my “keeper” rate. I estimate that 20 to 30% of my action shots are out of focus (I typically use group autofocus when there are several people in the frame, as in soccer, and use 3D focus when there is a single subject in view as in swimming). Based on reviews, it sounds like the D500 does a better job of locking focus and tracking moving subjects, and was wondering if you found that to be true in your experience. Also, have you tried any of the Sony mirrorless cameras for sports (I’m considering the a7iii as well), and if so, how do you think the autofocus and tracking compares? Thanks,

Joe

Thanks for the positive feedback Joe.

The D500 is a great sports camera. You can't go wrong with this camera. With that said, I would not say the keeper rate is any higher for the D500 compared the D7200 for what I shoot. The D500 shoots faster so you would have more total number of keepers however I have never felt the percent of keepers was any higher. The D7200 is a very capable camera.

I mostly shoot single point focus for motorsports, swimming, and water polo. I have tried other modes and they do not work for me. Group focus really works best for things like BIF. Group focus will always pick the closest object.

 

[idtx2]

Love seeing the Swim Pictures, nice work to everyone on the thread.

I started shooting my Kids swim meets with a D7100 and Nikon 80-200 2.8. I believe that is a combination that could be had for under $1000 on the used market. The buffer in the D7100 made shooting RAW problematic, but great for jpegs. Significant noise above ISO 1600 at least to my eye.

Now I use a D800 and Tamron 70-200 2.8 G1. Shooting in the 1.2 crop mode gives me a little extra reach and 5 fps with a reasonably deep buffer for RAW shooting. The focus on the Tamron is a little faster (internal motor instead of screw drive) and I feel the D800 sensor gives me about a one stop advantage over the APS-C in the D7100. I'm usually shooting 1/640 or 1/800 (depending on the swimmer) at 2.8 and ISO 3200.