Which camera type at this stage?

[FallenLeaf Photography]

I'm a an amateur photographer, who is only really just learning the more technical side of photography. I've spent years just using a more or less point and click, with no added lenses and very little on settings changes. My only actual camera (technology wise an ancient point and shoot hobby nikon) is now deeply inferior to my Iphone, and I'm wanting to consider getting into something that with technical learning and practice will give me a lot more options and quality. I mostly shoot nature photography, both close up detail and mountain vista type shots. I will be doing some 5 month thru-hikes in the next few years but will likely buy something specific for those trips to fit the weather conditions/weight needs.

At this point I am trying to decide if I want a decent EVIL point and click that will let me get a lot more experience with the primary manual settings and automatically give me some big increases in my photo quality potential, or if it would be worth shelling out the cash for an entry level DSLR, as that would be stretching my current budget as it is (which also means I definitely don't have much of a budget for a lens(es) for some time. Also, any suggestions for technical guides, buying guides for my specific needs, etc. would be great (other than the obvious resources on this site I am pouring through at the moment). Feel free to ask any questions that are glaring omissions on my part for this question!

Thanks all!

 

[baloo_buc]

Usually mirrorless cameras have higher prices than entry level dSLRs.

Look at Nikon D3300 with 18-55 mm VR, Canon 750D with 18-55 mm IS, Olympus E-PL7 or Olympus E-M10 with 14-42 mm, Sony A5100 with 16-50 mm OSS.

Sony has the worst lens from the group.

 

[yardcoyote]

I'm confused by your option of an "EVIL" point and shoot, since EVIL implies interchangeable lenses.

Certainly a large sensor fixed lens camera might be an excellent option for you. Lots of people would recommend something like the Panasonic LX100 as a good all around camera for those who want a bigger sensor and a fast "normal" zoom, while something like an FX1000 will give you a longer zoom range at the cost of a smaller sensor.

If you do decide to go with an interchangeable lens camera, whether mirrorless or a DSLR, remember that buying secondhand will make your money go much further. Gear that's a year or two or three or four (or five, or ten) years old can still work well and make wonderful images. Lenses, in particular age very slowly-- almost all of mine were bought secondhand or refurbished and nobody, least of all me, can tell the difference. Used camera equipment is the beginner's best friend-- and an excellent lifelong companion. My beginner days are long past and I still shop like a student.

 

[AlbertTheLazy]

...

At this point I am trying to decide if I want a decent EVIL point and click that will let me get a lot more experience with the primary manual settings and automatically give me some big increases in my photo quality potential, or if it would be worth shelling out the cash for an entry level DSLR, as that would be stretching my current budget as it is (which also means I definitely don't have much of a budget for a lens(es) for some time.

'EVIL' -- Electronic Viewfinder Interchangeable Lens, yes?

Until you get up to the serious dedicated cameras for pro applications there is no real difference between 'EVIL' (generally referred to as 'mirrorless') cameras and DSLRs. That means that your idea of 'a decent EVIL point and click' being somehow less useful than an equivalent DSLR is a bit out. You can use all entry and intermediate level DSLRs in full Auto mode just as you can their mirrorless opposite numbers.

You can actually get more bang for your buck buying an entry level DSLR that a similar standard of mirrorless in many (most?) cases.

You don't say what your budget is, so it's hard to advise you in detail. If weight is likely to be an issue for your hiking I'd suggest that you look at the Micro 4/3 range of mirrorless cameras, otherwise the entry models in any of the DSLR makes if value for money is a more significant factor.

 

[PhotoTeach2]

First of all may I point out that dSLR's are no longer necessarily the "best/only" way to get high-quality photos.

SLR/dSLR's were once necessary to mount wider/longer lenses, but their "mirror" technology had many inherent limitations we all had to live with.

THAT HAS CHANGED ...

New technology has now made mirrorless viable to also use wider/longer lenses, (actually even longer because "digital" zoom can be incorporated into them for even longer). The exposure and focus is more accurate because it is derived directly from the actual imaging sensor. AND you can actually "see" WB errors BEFORE exposure.

Their Electronic ViewFinders (EVF) provide a direct visual feedback so you get a WYSIWYG to optimize your exposure and White-Balance (WB).

This makes them better for beginners to learn on because you can see the corrections as you make them.

But they are not just best for beginners because they also can mean better IQ (lower-noise) because you can easy/fast ETTR for optimum exposure.

I recommend the $800 FZ-1000. It does many things faster and better than dSLR's, and many they can't do because of their "mirror" limitations. Starting with being unquestionably better for video but also allow much more creative shooting positions with a fully-articulated LCD, (low "ground" level and held "high" overhead or side -- and even remote viewing/control from cell-phone).

1/4000 native flash-sync for longer-range fill-flash and the ability to darken backgrounds in sun-light.

"HandHeld NIGHT-shot" for LOWER LIGHT.

5-axis Image-Stabilization, (compared to only 2-axis possible on CaNikon dSLR's).

12fps burst, (and even 50fps “super” burst).

4K-video w/ FRAME GRAB for a new paradigm in action “timing“ @ 30fps.

Panoramic, Multiple-Exposure and Intervalomater, etc.

No longer limited by "mirrors".

"Zebras" for easy-fast ETTR exposure optimization BEFORE shooting.

INSTANT (retained-image) REVIEW after a shot to immediately determine if I need to reshoot before subject/animal moves/leaves.

25 to 400mm-equiv, macro-focusing, (LEICA-designed), zoom lens much quicker than carrying/changing lenses, (and digital-zoom to 3200mm-equiv with reduced file-size).

For UWA I use a RAYNOX 5072 for 12-14mm-equiv. (or anything in between to 25mm)

With "zebras" and "retained-image-review" I have more confidence my exposure / WB and pose/smile/eyes etc. is correct.

Even the option to view or CONTROL the camera REMOTELY via your cell-phone.

Yes the sensor is smaller than APS or m4/3 but it is BSI-technology -- and the "zebras" enable fast/easy ETTR for optimum IQ and I am selling 24"x36" enlargements from it.

I am now taking 10X more shots and having 100X more "FUN" than I have in my 55+ years in photography.

 

[KCook]

...

At this point I am trying to decide if I want a decent EVIL point and click that will let me get a lot more experience with the primary manual settings and automatically give me some big increases in my photo quality potential, or if it would be worth shelling out the cash for an entry level DSLR, as that would be stretching my current budget as it is (which also means I definitely don't have much of a budget for a lens(es) for some time.

'EVIL' -- Electronic Viewfinder Interchangeable Lens, yes?

Until you get up to the serious dedicated cameras for pro applications there is no real difference between 'EVIL' (generally referred to as 'mirrorless') cameras and DSLRs. That means that your idea of 'a decent EVIL point and click' being somehow less useful than an equivalent DSLR is a bit out. You can use all entry and intermediate level DSLRs in full Auto mode just as you can their mirrorless opposite numbers.

You can actually get more bang for your buck buying an entry level DSLR that a similar standard of mirrorless in many (most?) cases.

You don't say what your budget is, so it's hard to advise you in detail. If weight is likely to be an issue for your hiking I'd suggest that you look at the Micro 4/3 range of mirrorless cameras, otherwise the entry models in any of the DSLR makes if value for money is a more significant factor.

+ 1

You have a lot of choices, and every camera will have its fans. One caution if I may -

I want a decent EVIL point and click that will let me get a lot more experience with the primary manual settings and automatically give me some big increases in my photo quality potential,

Whether advanced compact, or mirrorless, or DSLR, manual control by itself will not automatically give a big increase in photo quality. With an exception for trying to shoot in very, very low light. Any big increase in photo quality is more likely to come from a better understanding of composition and light. Which do not require full manual control.

Anyways, for cameras, links to a range of views -

choosing a camera to learn photography

First camera - DSLR vs M43

Compact or 4/3rds with small prime?

Kelly Cook

 

[FallenLeaf Photography]

I'm confused by your option of an "EVIL" point and shoot, since EVIL implies interchangeable lenses.

Certainly a large sensor fixed lens camera might be an excellent option for you. Lots of people would recommend something like the Panasonic LX100 as a good all around camera for those who want a bigger sensor and a fast "normal" zoom, while something like an FX1000 will give you a longer zoom range at the cost of a smaller sensor.

If you do decide to go with an interchangeable lens camera, whether mirrorless or a DSLR, remember that buying secondhand will make your money go much further. Gear that's a year or two or three or four (or five, or ten) years old can still work well and make wonderful images. Lenses, in particular age very slowly-- almost all of mine were bought secondhand or refurbished and nobody, least of all me, can tell the difference. Used camera equipment is the beginner's best friend-- and an excellent lifelong companion. My beginner days are long past and I still shop like a student.

Hey Yardcoyote, thank's for the reply!

Yes, the interchangeable lens. I didn't necessarily mean no-lens use or capability, but that if a camera is going to be near or past my budget as it is, the lens will have to wait so I'm hoping for one that can be used well without a lens or with that factored into pricing. I'm more attached to functionality and quality, with the ability to learn the skills that would transcend automatic settings, than a particular type. Oh, and price point sadly!

I'd definitely be happy to shop used, as off the shelf prices for the most basic DSLR's are far beyond what I want to spend now. Really I'm hoping to at MOST spend $300 on my initial kit, which does mean used for most options (and I know is still very little, but this is very much a side project for a while and I know that in 2 years I will want something very specific for taking on trail with me which may be a lot more expensive so I want to keep most of my gear cash reserved for that when the time comes and I have a better idea what that means), but that works for me. I just want something I can trust and fits my needs. Do you have any suggestions for buying used and trusting it not to be a lemon?

 

[FallenLeaf Photography]

Hey Albert, yes I meant interchangeable lens etc. though I don't really mean point in click in the completely automatic setting sense, as I m looking for a new camera half for better quality potential in my photos but also to learn the skills of manually adjusting my cameras settings to really get a lot more out of my photos.

I knew that I was leaving out at least something important, and I suppose budget is noteworthy! My budget is quite limited now as I will be on trail for 5 months in 2019 and will need to buy something very weight and battery endurance focused, while still being able to do close up and vistas well, and expect to sink some real cash in there. For now I want to build skills and learn what I actually want out of my more investment intensive camera when I get there. I'm hoping to spend less than $300 for my initial kit, and may go for something even less impressive

 

[FallenLeaf Photography]

Definitely good points, though that was why I was specific in saying increased potential for quality, as I know the biggest advances will come from learning and practice, which is the biggest reason why I want something that gives me the freedom to do more than strictly automatic shooting modes. I misspoke really when I worded it "simply EVIL point and clicks," the effects of trying to post this before running off to an appointment in a time crunch! I have a feeling I may either be buying something less expensive than I had anticipated or borrowing (if allowed!) a family Rebel or a higher end Canon model that I can't quite recall, to learn for a time.

I really appreciate the input and the resources! I will be taking a look presently, once I finish replying to everyone else who has commented.

 

[yardcoyote]

Well, if you get an interchangeable lens camera and no lens, there aren't going to be any pictures at all.

Buying a DSLR and a lens for less than $300 is tough but not impossible. Your best bet is to find a brick and mortar store that caters to students, perhaps one near a university. Students in beginning photography classes are required to have a DSLR and a kit zoom, and I know of at least one store that puts out a table of "meets class requirements and that's about all we can say about it" clunkers at the beginning of every semester. They're technically obsolete, and not pretty, but they work and you can take good pictures with them. You can ask for the same thing at any large store with a lot of secondhand gear.

Otherwise, go to either KEH or the used department at B&H and start looking at the cheap stuff. The advantage to buying from a big dealer is that their offerings are tested and they both a generous return period and some kind of guarantee. You can find lower prices on Craigslist, Ebay, etc., but you are taking a much greater risk.

Good luck.

 

[FallenLeaf Photography]

Many thanks Yardcoyote,

Aye, I think soon I will be starting to scout some local stores in my free time. I live in Portland, OR and there are many universities in the area with film programs, and a good store selection. My father was a professional photographer some 20-30 years+ ago, and I do recall him taking me to some used stores in the area when I was a kid, so I imagine he can point me to some good ones for that (or you know, Google).

I'm still basically the looking in the window stage of purchasing prep, learning more of the technical side before I even buy, and slowly ramping up feature and particular model research. I am imaging I may go for something like this if I buy online, which will give me some technical freedom with some zoom lens options at decent prices, within my financial ability looking to the future (I just got married 2 weeks ago, I opened a new treatment room, and am preparing for 2 small and one large thru-hike in the next 3 years):

Loading…

www.amazon.com

 

[KCook]

My budget is quite limited now as I will be on trail for 5 months in 2019 and will need to buy something very weight

The weight requirement makes a DSLR a dubious choice. There are plenty of advanced compacts and mirrorless to choose from that are lighter, but the $300 USD ceiling will make these a crunch. Increase that 50% and it will make a real difference.

Kelly

 

[FallenLeaf Photography]

I don't have any weight requirement for this camera, it can be as enormous and heavy as it wants. I'll be going for something lighter in a few years, though by thru-hiking standards it'll still be the equivalent of dragging a dead moose behind me, but oh well, it's worth it! At that time I'll have a lot more to play with financially as well, probably.

 

[Tom_N]

At this point I am trying to decide if I want a decent EVIL point and click that will let me get a lot more experience with the primary manual settings and automatically give me some big increases in my photo quality potential, or if it would be worth shelling out the cash for an entry level DSLR

As others have noted, EVIL means "electronic viewfinder, interchangeable lens". Micro Four-Thirds system cameras would be one example.

A compact camera with an electronic viewfinder and a non-interchangeable lens is not EVIL. Nor is a bridge / superzoom camera with an electronic viewfinder, such as the Panasonic FZ1000. There are differences among various compacts and bridge cameras with respect to sensor size, zoom (focal length) range, lens speed (maximum aperture), hot shoes, and manual controls, but you have to have interchangeable lenses to make 'EV' 'EVIL'.

If you will be taking photos of birds or other wild animals, you will want something longer than an 18-55 mm lens. As a rule, birds will not let you get close. Other animals may be larger, but you should still keep your distance – for your own safety! ("Here we have Mr. Smith's last photo, a great closeup of the inside of an alligator's mouth. Note the impressive jaw muscles and dentures!") Long telephoto lenses get very expensive, very fast, so for many hobbyists, the first telephoto lens is something on the order of a 55-250mm, 55-300mm, or 70-300mm lens.

 

[yardcoyote]

Whatever you decide, you'll learn more from buying something cheap and actually making images than you will from all the research in the world.

Definitely get help and advice from your dad if you can! When I finally went digital 3 or 4 years ago I was pleasantly surprised how much of what I knew from years of shooting film would still work for me.

 

[KCook]

I don't have any weight requirement for this camera, it can be as enormous and heavy as it wants. I'll be going for something lighter in a few years, though by thru-hiking standards it'll still be the equivalent of dragging a dead moose behind me, but oh well, it's worth it! At that time I'll have a lot more to play with financially as well, probably.

Not really. The differences in IQ between a small camera and a big DSLR are fairly subtle. One of us is very confused here!

Kelly

 

[MarkInSF]

As has been noted by others, there is no meaningful price difference between entry-level dslrs, which are surprisingly cheap, and mirrorless cameras of similar quality. There have been some cheaper mirrorless models, but they lacked something in build quality, sensor size, and optics. The cheapest models lacked an electronic viewfinder.

The principal advantages of mirrorless cameras have been compactness and video, though video features have varied, especially between different companies. In contrast, a DSLR is inherently poor as a video camera and the entry-level models have been worst of all. If video doesn't matter to you, a DSLR may be the better choice, especially compared to an inexpensive mirrorless model with no viewfinder.

If video does interest you, a Panasonic or Sony mirrorless model would be a good choice as they had the best video features a few years ago. The Panasonic G line has always been a great value The Sony a6000 would be another popular choice, I wouldn't buy anything more than two or three years old as the quality has been advancing steadily. Prices drop quickly enough that you should be able to find something within your budget.

For a DSLR, the age is not quite as important as they have evolved more slowly. Nikon has better sensors than Canon and has for quite a few years. Other features are very comparable between their basic DSLR models.

There are other reasons to prefer a DSLR model or mirrorless, but the video features are the most dramatic difference and often enough to make one or the other the compelling choice.

 

[Dutch Newchurch]

I have a suggestion that's well within your budget.

Panasonic G3. It launched at the same time as the Olympus OM-D and contains similar technology. It marks the point where the m43 mirrorless cameras became a genuinely sensible alternative to a larger DSLR.

Don't get more than one lens for it until you've used it for 6-12 months. By then you'll have a good idea about whether mirrorless (in general) and m43 (in particular) are right for you. You'll probably have got to a limitation of the capability of the G3 somewhere (although it has a huge performance envelope).

In brief, after using it for 6-12 months, you'll be able to make an informed decision about what next. And, during that time, you'll be using a decent piece of kit that's very inexpensive.

 

[RSSrsvp]

Otherwise, go to either KEH or the used department at B&H and start looking at the cheap stuff. The advantage to buying from a big dealer is that their offerings are tested and they both a generous return period and some kind of guarantee. You can find lower prices on Craigslist, Ebay, etc., but you are taking a much greater risk.

Good luck.

Adorama is another reputable seller of used equipment. All three of these sellers do a really good job of describing the condition of the used equipment that they are selling. B&H gives the shortest warranty which is 90 days while Adorama and KEH offer 180 days and all three have a 30 day return policy.

I personally would be rather have peace of mind with a warranty & return policy and avoid eBay and Craigslist.

 

[FallenLeaf Photography]

Yeah video is essentially irrelevant to me, and my wife will be getting herself a gopro soon for that purpose. My father has offered me his Nikon D1x which may work well for my purposes of learning on it, if I can find a lens that works for me for a decent price. Otherwise I may wait on the DSLR and get a much less expensive camera to learn on before I really invest in a good compact high quality trail camera, then a larger DSLR later on.