Any better?

[barry c]

Today's portrait and lighting attempt. Trying to incorporate what I'm learning here...





Thanks for looking

Barry

 

[photolando]

Today's portrait and lighting attempt. Trying to incorporate what I'm learning here...



Thanks for looking

Barry

Well, and this may come off harsh, but I've been shooting classic portraiture for over 20 years do I will just comment as to how I shoot.

The light behind her is acting like a rim light. That's fine. Is that what you want? To me, it't not really doing much. As a rim, it's too weak. You really have to blast them to get a strong rim around the hair. I'd rather use that light as a hair and or separation light and have it in the back corner and up high. Or on a small boom to act like a hair light. Rim lighting can be fine but it really doesn't work well with people who have straight hair. Perms, really curly hair, afros, etc., make for a better rim light effect.

The contrast is a bit much. With this expression, this seems like an average head and shoulders portrait and not a dramatic one where heavy contract looks good. So fill in the shadow side more.

I prefer a higher main light angle. A good place to start is having the main 45 degrees to the the subject facing position and 45 degrees high. NOT just a few feet from the camera. As the subject turns, so does the main light. For instance, If she was facing me, and I had the main to my right about 4 feet away, if I turn her to face more to my left, I would move the light just as much to get that same lighting effect as the first position. Don't just leave it at the original position. if you don't, the light will flatten out. Kinda as it looks here.

Most photographers who aren't experienced just set up lights and leave them there and tell the subject to move this way and that. And you can, a little. You do have this very small distance you can turn them. But go beyond that and you have to move the light(s) as well.

Your also about 3/4s to a full stop underexposed.

--
Mike

 

[hotdog321]

This looks about a stop underexposed.

 

[KE_DP]

+1 on UE - as the others said, it's way too dark. You can turn lights up, play with your camera settings but the proper way to get it where it is closest, is with a hand held flash meter. At first I thought it wasn't sharp (until I zoomed and it's fine!) - Just couldn't tell because it was so dark. Is your monitor calibrated? You can certainly lighten her up in post!

+1 on hair light - right now you're lighting the back of her head. A hairlight needs to be several feet above and behind them to light the top of the head and more importantly, drape over their shoulders. To keep it condensed, a grid is usually best.

+1 on getting the key light higher

And something else - the camera angle is coming from below her eyes. It's better to shoot slightly downwards than upwards.

Sorry to have so much critique, but hope it helps. The expression is great so keep it up.

--
- Karen
http://www.karenengelphotography.com

 

[barry c]

Well, and this may come off harsh, but I've been shooting classic portraiture for over 20 years do I will just comment as to how I shoot.

Not harsh at all! Actually just the kind of feedback I'm looking for.

The light behind her is acting like a rim light. That's fine. Is that what you want? To me, it't not really doing much. As a rim, it's too weak. You really have to blast them to get a strong rim around the hair. I'd rather use that light as a hair and or separation light and have it in the back corner and up high. Or on a small boom to act like a hair light. Rim lighting can be fine but it really doesn't work well with people who have straight hair. Perms, really curly hair, afros, etc., make for a better rim light effect.

This was my biggest problem. I tried multiple attempts to get an effective separation between the hair and the background.

I used a speedlight behind the subject. Experimenting with zoom and power levels went from totally ineffective to annoying flaring on the sides of the head. This was the best of the group, and even so I had to tame a few flared spots in PP.

I am frustrated by my space limitations as well. I can't get an overhead light high enough due to a low ceiling. I even moved the subject down onto a hassock to get a little more height for the key light.

Unless I figure out a way to move my setup to another area with more room, I may need to give up on the black backgrounds. Or solve the rim/hair light problem. Suggestions are greatly appreciated, but I don't think I'll be able to use a boom.

The contrast is a bit much. With this expression, this seems like an average head and shoulders portrait and not a dramatic one where heavy contract looks good. So fill in the shadow side more.

I did use a fill that I toned down for more shadow. I'm feeling my way around this - I'm very much a novice with lighting. This portrait is supposed to be in between dramatic and standard for its intended use. I guess it's a fine line...

I prefer a higher main light angle. A good place to start is having the main 45 degrees to the the subject facing position and 45 degrees high. NOT just a few feet from the camera. As the subject turns, so does the main light. For instance, If she was facing me, and I had the main to my right about 4 feet away, if I turn her to face more to my left, I would move the light just as much to get that same lighting effect as the first position. Don't just leave it at the original position. if you don't, the light will flatten out. Kinda as it looks here.

As I mentioned before, getting the main light higher was physically not possible. So subject went lower ;-) Very frustrating; I will continue trying to solve this...

You mentioned to fill in the shadow side more (above paragraph). Wouldn't that make the light even flatter?

Your also about 3/4s to a full stop underexposed.

How does this look?



I should add that the uploaded image above looks darker and slightly more saturated than the same image viewed in lightroom (or Preview).

Thanks again,

Barry

 

[barry c]

+1 on UE - as the others said, it's way too dark. You can turn lights up, play with your camera settings but the proper way to get it where it is closest, is with a hand held flash meter. At first I thought it wasn't sharp (until I zoomed and it's fine!) - Just couldn't tell because it was so dark. Is your monitor calibrated? You can certainly lighten her up in post!

I posted a lighter version above. Look better to you? I had to tone down the highlights to compensate a little.

+1 on hair light - right now you're lighting the back of her head. A hairlight needs to be several feet above and behind them to light the top of the head and more importantly, drape over their shoulders. To keep it condensed, a grid is usually best.

Yes! Detailed response in above post.

+1 on getting the key light higher

Yes again! See above...

And something else - the camera angle is coming from below her eyes. It's better to shoot slightly downwards than upwards

Why is that?

Sorry to have so much critique, but hope it helps. The expression is great so keep it up.

Much critique is in proportion with my much to learn. Thanks, I really appreciate it, it does help - a lot.

Barry

 

[KE_DP]

How does this look?

I agree the DPR web version doesn't look as good - I pulled it up in LR myself, and a quick pass in CS5 as well. I still might have originally tried for more exposure but also I borrowed your original and did my own variation... I didn't take the time to clone back the shine on the forehead, but would probably do that as well... Just a little more pop now maybe?













--
- Karen

Karen Engel Photography Headshot Senior Portrait Professional Editorial Family Bakersfield Commercial

Karen Engel Photography, Bakersfield, Los Angeles. Senior Portraits, headshots, photographer, portraits, head shots, business, headshot, editorial, events, wedding, children, family, couples, engagement, anniversary, weddings, fashion, beauty, couples, special event, models, high school senior...

www.karenengelphotography.com

 

[barry c]

How does this look?

I agree the DPR web version doesn't look as good - I pulled it up in LR myself, and a quick pass in CS5 as well. I still might have originally tried for more exposure but also I borrowed your original and did my own variation... I didn't take the time to clone back the shine on the forehead, but would probably do that as well... Just a little more pop now maybe?

Yes! More pop. What did you do? (if I may ask)

Barry

 

[Sailor Blue]

Experimenting is what you have to do to learn lighting so keep at it.

Here are classical lighting setups. The broad lighting and short lighting examples are booth loop lighting. Avoid broad lighting unless the subject is very thin.

Portrait Lighting - Project 3 - Portrait Lighting Set-Ups

Loop lighting the first lighting setup you should learn. Watch the Clay Blackmore videos I gave the link for in one of your earlier posts. Clay is a master at loop lighting.

A hot-shoe flash makes a nice hair light since the zoom function lets you adjust the beam spread much like barn doors with a studio strobe. A super clamp lets me attach my hot-shoe flash to the background stands or the crossbar if I am using a fabric background.

B&H - Impact Super Clamp with Standard (1/4"-20) Stud KCP-700B26

Your exposure is a bit off, around 0.5 stops, but that is well within the acceptable range for a RAW file. If you have Lightroom try and get the brightest significant highlight that must retain skin details to read out about 87 on the Red channel. In Photoshop or ACR that is around 212 or 213.

Typically for a head shot you want the camera around eye level or slightly higher. Camera position, lighting, pose, and expression all covey emotions such as superiority, equality, or inferiority.

Remember the lean toward the camera then tip the head up to the camera trick I mentioned earlier. This tightens the jowls and reduces double chins. Peter Hurley calls it the turtle move, others talk about pushing the forehead toward the camera, but just having the subject lean forward a few inches is easier. This technique is as old as portrait photography.

Peter Hurley! | It's all about the Jaw

--
Living and loving it in Pattaya, Thailand. Canon 7D - See the gear list for the rest.

 

[barry c]

Experimenting is what you have to do to learn lighting so keep at it.

I plan to do this...

Here are classical lighting setups. The broad lighting and short lighting examples are booth loop lighting. Avoid broad lighting unless the subject is very thin.

Portrait Lighting - Project 3 - Portrait Lighting Set-Ups

Loop lighting the first lighting setup you should learn. Watch the Clay Blackmore videos I gave the link for in one of your earlier posts. Clay is a master at loop lighting.

A hot-shoe flash makes a nice hair light since the zoom function lets you adjust the beam spread much like barn doors with a studio strobe. A super clamp lets me attach my hot-shoe flash to the background stands or the crossbar if I am using a fabric background.

I'm watching and absorbing all of your links. I've been using a hot shoe flash for hair light but never thought to attach it to the crossbar. Great idea!

Your exposure is a bit off, around 0.5 stops, but that is well within the acceptable range for a RAW file. If you have Lightroom try and get the brightest significant highlight that must retain skin details to read out about 87 on the Red channel. In Photoshop or ACR that is around 212 or 213.

Typically for a head shot you want the camera around eye level or slightly higher. Camera position, lighting, pose, and expression all covey emotions such as superiority, equality, or inferiority.

Good points again

Remember the lean toward the camera then tip the head up to the camera trick I mentioned earlier. This tightens the jowls and reduces double chins. Peter Hurley calls it the turtle move, others talk about pushing the forehead toward the camera, but just having the subject lean forward a few inches is easier. This technique is as old as portrait photography.

I remembered this while shooting. I probably didn't have the camera high enough for it to be effective.

Thanks again,

Barry

 

[KE_DP]

Yes! More pop. What did you do? (if I may ask)

Note that working with the RAW file it's quite easy to fix a slight UE - always better that, than OE where highlights cannot be recovered!

For PP - what I did...

In LR - raised shadows, exposure - lowered highlights, blacks - slight overall sharpening and a touch of vibrance

In Photoshop - selective sharpening layer for the eyes, and 3 layers of painting white highlights/brightening - teeth, iris, and eye whites.

 

[photolando]

It is always always always better to "get it in camera" then to "fix it" later in PS/LR/ACR. And with exposure, unless you have little control (weather. sun in and out, etc.) you really have no excuse. Meter or no meter.

I always do a ETTR (Expose To The Right) check. Realize that a completely white image means the sensor got completely saturated. That also means that the RGB values will all read 255, 255, 255. White WITH detail, sits around 240-245.

What all this means is that based on the fact that you start to saturate the sensor at 255, if your subject held up a white card in front of her face, You could keep giving the subject more exposure right up until you start to see the overexposure blinkies on your camera monitor. Meaning your getting near that 255 mark. The second you start to see them, close down 1/3 of a stop. That will set that card to around the 240-245-ish mark you are aiming for. Trust me, your exposure will be about as good as you can get them...in camera without overexposing your subject. And if at this point, the shadows are still too dark, add more fill either with a fill light or reflector. But do another ETTR check to see if exposure changed any.

Do this AFTER you have set ALL your lights and about to start capturing poses/expressions. Even a hair light could bounce around and add some exposure if you did this before turing it on. And of course your fill may as well. So do this with all the lights firing.

If you bring up exposure in LR/PS, you may also risk increasing shadow noise. Anytime you adjust in post your are pushing pixels. It's not a "bad" thing, you just don't want to limit how much you do. In a studio situation, you should have complete control of the exposure, contrast and WB of the scene. You should never have to adjust these areas in post. OR if you do, very little. Tweak. Not fix.

A white terry cloth towel (washcloth size) is perfect for this since it has detail.

 

[barry c]

Yes! More pop. What did you do? (if I may ask)

Note that working with the RAW file it's quite easy to fix a slight UE - always better that, than OE where highlights cannot be recovered!

For PP - what I did...
In LR - raised shadows, exposure - lowered highlights, blacks - slight overall sharpening and a touch of vibrance

In Photoshop - selective sharpening layer for the eyes, and 3 layers of painting white highlights/brightening - teeth, iris, and eye whites.

Thanks again Karen! I made a few last adjustments and posted below.

Barry

 

[barry c]

It is always always always better to "get it in camera" then to "fix it" later in PS/LR/ACR. And with exposure, unless you have little control (weather. sun in and out, etc.) you really have no excuse. Meter or no meter.

I always do a ETTR (Expose To The Right) check. Realize that a completely white image means the sensor got completely saturated. That also means that the RGB values will all read 255, 255, 255. White WITH detail, sits around 240-245.

What all this means is that based on the fact that you start to saturate the sensor at 255, if your subject held up a white card in front of her face, You could keep giving the subject more exposure right up until you start to see the overexposure blinkies on your camera monitor. Meaning your getting near that 255 mark. The second you start to see them, close down 1/3 of a stop. That will set that card to around the 240-245-ish mark you are aiming for. Trust me, your exposure will be about as good as you can get them...in camera without overexposing your subject. And if at this point, the shadows are still too dark, add more fill either with a fill light or reflector. But do another ETTR check to see if exposure changed any.

Do this AFTER you have set ALL your lights and about to start capturing poses/expressions. Even a hair light could bounce around and add some exposure if you did this before turing it on. And of course your fill may as well. So do this with all the lights firing.

If you bring up exposure in LR/PS, you may also risk increasing shadow noise. Anytime you adjust in post your are pushing pixels. It's not a "bad" thing, you just don't want to limit how much you do. In a studio situation, you should have complete control of the exposure, contrast and WB of the scene. You should never have to adjust these areas in post. OR if you do, very little. Tweak. Not fix.

A white terry cloth towel (washcloth size) is perfect for this since it has detail.

Very useful advice here Mike. Thanks for taking the time to detail it.

Barry

 

[barry c]

I'm going to stop with this one at this point ;-) Anything more that I do doesn't improve it IMO.

Thanks again for everyone's help here. I think the portrait came a long way, and I learned a lot.





Barry

 

[KE_DP]

And something else - the camera angle is coming from below her eyes. It's better to shoot slightly downwards than upwards

Why is that?

Sorry I forgot to hit reply on this answer and got busy doing something else - so it's coming a bit late -

Shooting up makes the chin look bigger as it becomes close to the camera from that angle - also has a chance of up the nose view.... It also gets her looking down so her eyes will become more closed naturally and cause a more "down" look in general with the surrounding facial muscles - tired, bored, sad, sleepy etc.

That said, no one will call the camera angle police so feel free to experiment with even more views and compare them to see which ones you prefer! Sometime an angle shooting up is deliberate to create a certain mood!

Your's wasn't way off - just a tiny little bit - but it is something to watch out for. Eye level is is always a good bet. If they are looking a touch upward the eyes are more open usually.

.--
- Karen

Karen Engel Photography Headshot Senior Portrait Professional Editorial Family Bakersfield Commercial

Karen Engel Photography, Bakersfield, Los Angeles. Senior Portraits, headshots, photographer, portraits, head shots, business, headshot, editorial, events, wedding, children, family, couples, engagement, anniversary, weddings, fashion, beauty, couples, special event, models, high school senior...

www.karenengelphotography.com

 

[Sailor Blue]

And something else - the camera angle is coming from below her eyes. It's better to shoot slightly downwards than upwards

Why is that?

Sorry I forgot to hit reply on this answer and got busy doing something else - so it's coming a bit late -

Shooting up makes the chin look bigger as it becomes close to the camera from that angle - also has a chance of up the nose view.... It also gets her looking down so her eyes will become more closed naturally and cause a more "down" look in general with the surrounding facial muscles - tired, bored, sad, sleepy etc.

Good point about the eyes Karen, and something I should have mentioned too.

I have droopy eyelids and all my early portraits came out with me looking half asleep. It wasn't until I was about 20 years old that a professional photographer friend taught me how to overcome that problem.

Have the subject relax their neck by moving their head around, and have them stop moving with them looking at your chin. Next have them raise ONLY their eyes to the camera lens. This will get them to look up slightly and open up the eyes.

Living in Thailand I have to do this frequently since many Asians have narrow eyes. Once they do this their eyes open up and I get great shots showing their beautiful brown irises.

One thing to remember is that posing can be very uncomfortable for the subject, but it is those uncomfortable poses that produce the best photos. Always try out the poses yourself so you will understand how the subject will feel. Sometimes a pose can only last a couple of seconds before the subject becomes unsteady or even feels pain. You need to know what to expect if you are going to get the shot.

--
Living and loving it in Pattaya, Thailand. Canon 7D - See the gear list for the rest.