Oly E-M1 phase + contrast focus vs Lumix GX8 Depth from Defocus AF

[darrinlingle]

there seems to be different opinions and little detailed input from the manufacturers about how the Olympus E-M1's phase and contrast focus vs Panasonic's Dept from Defocus AF.

here's what i've heard:

the M1 uses phase first and then uses contrast focus to fine tune on certain lenses.

the M1 uses phase detect on the older 4/3 lenses (with adapters) and contrast focus on micro4/3 lenses.

the gx8 uses the distance and focal length to predict generally where to focus and fine tunes it by contrast from there.

from my own uncontrolled test using the 100-400 pan-leica on a e-m1, it was disappointed using af-s and af-c, then af-c with tracking. i then got a gx8 to get the benefit of dual-IS and discovered something unexpected. the focus seemed much faster and i got a lot more keepers with the gx8 for birds in flight shots. i thought the oly hybrid focus was the best and fastest focus system. for those who say it works better with a pro oly lens, i used the e-m1 with the oly 40-150 f/2.8 and it was decent, but nothing like the speed of the gx8.

 

[kodacolor]

As I notice being a micro four thirds shooter for last 5 years some lens tend to work best on a body by there respective manufacture

 

[Tommi K1]

E-M1 uses CDAF+PDAF when in Seq-L C-AF or C-AF + Tracking. And it is slower and not good forecasting changes in speed.

E-M1 uses PDAF only in Seq-H with C-AF.

And if you use S-AF, it is just CDAF.

 

[photofan1986]

E-M1 uses CDAF+PDAF when in Seq-L C-AF or C-AF + Tracking. And it is slower and not good forecasting changes in speed.

E-M1 uses PDAF only in Seq-H with C-AF.

And if you use S-AF, it is just CDAF.

Not really, it also uses PDAF, contrary to what Oly says.

Here are two videos I made a while ago:

 

[Tariag]

Actually, neither Oly PDAF nor DfD are great improvements.

First of all, most MFT lenses work better (= AF faster) with their own manufacturers body. So no suprise that a Panasonic lens focuses faster on a Panasonic body.

Second, Panasonic AF is faster than Oly. Period. They're always a step ahead. Even an "old" body like GX7 without DfD already blows out the EM1 in low light. Maybe EM1 II will catch up (in C-AF at least) but I not even sure...
Actually, a Panasonic DfD body with a Panasonic lens like the 12-35 is probably the fastest focusing system of any in the world today (in S-AF), even compared to high end dslrs. Especially in low light (-4 IL!!!).

Third, the main point of PDAF on EM1 is using the old FT lenses. With FT lenses, EM1 will focus faster than any Panasonic body! It only has a marginal effect, and only in some situations with MFT lenses.

Fourth, DfD is not at all a PDAF, it's just a slightly enhanced CDAF where the camera analyzes the image *before* starting to move the elements of the lens so it knows in which direction it must start. Basically it reduces the hunting. At the end, it goes a little faster but Panasonic AF was already impressive before DfD.

Also note that Oly's PDAF can work with any manufacturer, FT or MFT lenses. DfD works only with some Panasonic lenses.

Knowing all this, your statement about the focusing speed of your gear is just obvious to me.

 

[DonParrot]

there seems to be different opinions and little detailed input from the manufacturers about how the Olympus E-M1's phase and contrast focus vs Panasonic's Dept from Defocus AF.

here's what i've heard:

the M1 uses phase first and then uses contrast focus to fine tune on certain lenses.

the M1 uses phase detect on the older 4/3 lenses (with adapters) and contrast focus on micro4/3 lenses.

It's far more complex. In C-AF in burst mode H, the E-M1 uses solely PDAF (with all lenses), in burst mose L it uses a hybrid AF with all but the FT lenses and in S-AF it uses solely CDAF with all but the FT lenses.

the gx8 uses the distance and focal length to predict generally where to focus and fine tunes it by contrast from there.

from my own uncontrolled test using the 100-400 pan-leica on a e-m1, it was disappointed using af-s and af-c, then af-c with tracking. i then got a gx8 to get the benefit of dual-IS and discovered something unexpected. the focus seemed much faster and i got a lot more keepers with the gx8 for birds in flight shots. i thought the oly hybrid focus was the best and fastest focus system. for those who say it works better with a pro oly lens, i used the e-m1 with the oly 40-150 f/2.8 and it was decent, but nothing like the speed of the gx8.

That's exactly what I whould have expected, although the GX8 C-AF is slower than the GH4, the GX80/85 and arguably the G80/81/85. The Panny DFD provides what I call a C-AF for dummies. You just activate the C-AF, aim at your subject and you will be provided a solid keeper rate. On the downside, you can practice as much as you want - you won't be able to increase this rate very much.

The E-M1, however, is quite a different beast that wants you to work far more precisely. And you have to accept that its C-SAF needs one or two tenths of a second to grasp the subject. So, your results may be disappointing in the beginning but when you have familiarised with the cam you can achieve a keeper rate that comes close to the ones of the big sports cameras.

But when it comes to C-AF + tracking, both cameras are more or less useless.

--
I wish I was an OLYgarch

 

[DonParrot]

Actually, neither Oly PDAF nor DfD are great improvements.

First of all, most MFT lenses work better (= AF faster) with their own manufacturers body. So no suprise that a Panasonic lens focuses faster on a Panasonic body.

Second, Panasonic AF is faster than Oly. Period. They're always a step ahead. Even an "old" body like GX7 without DfD already blows out the EM1 in low light. Maybe EM1 II will catch up (in C-AF at least) but I not even sure...

Allow me to laugh loud. DFD is a great, revolutionary development but there is no Panny cam that ecen comes close to the C-AF performance of the E-M1. I know what I'm talking about. Otherwise, the GH4 wouldn't get dusty im my camera cupboard.

Actually, a Panasonic DfD body with a Panasonic lens like the 12-35 is probably the fastest focusing system of any in the world today (in S-AF), even compared to high end dslrs. Especially in low light (-4 IL!!!).

In S-AF this arguably is true, but that's something compoletely different.

Third, the main point of PDAF on EM1 is using the old FT lenses. With FT lenses, EM1 will focus faster than any Panasonic body! It only has a marginal effect, and only in some situations with MFT lenses.

Oh so wrong.

Fourth, DfD is not at all a PDAF, it's just a slightly enhanced CDAF where the camera analyzes the image *before* starting to move the elements of the lens so it knows in which direction it must start. Basically it reduces the hunting. At the end, it goes a little faster but Panasonic AF was already impressive before DfD.

Again so wrong. Even my 75 1.8 C-AFs fine and reliably on the GH4.

Also note that Oly's PDAF can work with any manufacturer, FT or MFT lenses. DfD works only with some Panasonic lenses.

Knowing all this, your statement about the focusing speed of your gear is just obvious to me.

 

[DonParrot]

Actually, neither Oly PDAF nor DfD are great improvements.

First of all, most MFT lenses work better (= AF faster) with their own manufacturers body. So no suprise that a Panasonic lens focuses faster on a Panasonic body.

Second, Panasonic AF is faster than Oly. Period. They're always a step ahead. Even an "old" body like GX7 without DfD already blows out the EM1 in low light. Maybe EM1 II will catch up (in C-AF at least) but I not even sure...

Allow me to laugh loud. DFD is a great, revolutionary development but there is no Panny cam that even comes close to the C-AF performance of the E-M1. I know what I'm talking about. Otherwise, the GH4 wouldn't get dusty im my camera cupboard.

Actually, a Panasonic DfD body with a Panasonic lens like the 12-35 is probably the fastest focusing system of any in the world today (in S-AF), even compared to high end dslrs. Especially in low light (-4 IL!!!).

In S-AF this arguably is true, but that's something compoletely different.

Third, the main point of PDAF on EM1 is using the old FT lenses. With FT lenses, EM1 will focus faster than any Panasonic body! It only has a marginal effect, and only in some situations with MFT lenses.

Oh so wrong.

Fourth, DfD is not at all a PDAF, it's just a slightly enhanced CDAF where the camera analyzes the image *before* starting to move the elements of the lens so it knows in which direction it must start. Basically it reduces the hunting. At the end, it goes a little faster but Panasonic AF was already impressive before DfD.

Again so wrong. Even my 75 1.8 C-AFs fine and reliably on the GH4.

Also note that Oly's PDAF can work with any manufacturer, FT or MFT lenses. DfD works only with some Panasonic lenses.

Knowing all this, your statement about the focusing speed of your gear is just obvious to me.

 

[Nemo0815]

Actually, neither Oly PDAF nor DfD are great improvements.

First of all, most MFT lenses work better (= AF faster) with their own manufacturers body. So no suprise that a Panasonic lens focuses faster on a Panasonic body.

Second, Panasonic AF is faster than Oly. Period. They're always a step ahead. Even an "old" body like GX7 without DfD already blows out the EM1 in low light. Maybe EM1 II will catch up (in C-AF at least) but I not even sure...

Allow me to laugh loud. DFD is a great, revolutionary development but there is no Panny cam that ecen comes close to the C-AF performance of the E-M1. I know what I'm talking about. Otherwise, the GH4 wouldn't get dusty im my camera cupboard.

Think he is talking about low light and in these conditions, the E-M1 PDAF is not really usable...

 

[DonParrot]

Actually, neither Oly PDAF nor DfD are great improvements.

First of all, most MFT lenses work better (= AF faster) with their own manufacturers body. So no suprise that a Panasonic lens focuses faster on a Panasonic body.

Second, Panasonic AF is faster than Oly. Period. They're always a step ahead. Even an "old" body like GX7 without DfD already blows out the EM1 in low light. Maybe EM1 II will catch up (in C-AF at least) but I not even sure...

Allow me to laugh loud. DFD is a great, revolutionary development but there is no Panny cam that ecen comes close to the C-AF performance of the E-M1. I know what I'm talking about. Otherwise, the GH4 wouldn't get dusty im my camera cupboard.

Think he is talking about low light and in these conditions, the E-M1 PDAF is not really usable...

Correct. The DFD truly amazes in the darc. But I often do parties and the likes and in this kind of light, my Oly's still do fine - most of the time, that is.

 

[Tariag]

If you know how the EM1 AF works, you can get very good results even in very low light. But it needs some learning and practice.

Pany's AF (even without DfD) is amazing in low light, straight out of the box. Big advantage for beginners.

 

[Jim in Hudson]

If you know how the EM1 AF works, you can get very good results even in very low light. But it needs some learning and practice.

Pany's AF (even without DfD) is amazing in low light, straight out of the box. Big advantage for beginners.

I'll bite on the opportunity. I haven't had my E-M1 all that long. Can I ask you to share some of the "not in the manual" inside info on extracting the most from it's AF system?

 

[DonParrot]

If you know how the EM1 AF works, you can get very good results even in very low light. But it needs some learning and practice.

Pany's AF (even without DfD) is amazing in low light, straight out of the box. Big advantage for beginners.

I'll bite on the opportunity. I haven't had my E-M1 all that long. Can I ask you to share some of the "not in the manual" inside info on extracting the most from it's AF system?

First of all, to demonstrate that I know what I'm talking about, a link to some action pics:

E-M1 with 40-150 Pro and EE-1 Dot Sight does action

Now: The E-M1 needs slightly more time (one to three tenths of a second) to acquire focus than the instant AF of Panny's DFD cameras. To be sure that it has acquired focus, enable the AD confirmation beep and wait for both the green box and the beep.

If you are shooting fast action with short exposure times where you don't need the IBIS anyway, disable it. Doing so will cut down the time the C-AF needs to acquire focus.

If you use burst mode L and want to shoot long bursts, use - depending on your eyes - only four or five FPS. With six or 6.5 FPS, the blackout phases will be too disturbing and you possibly will lose track.

If you are using burst mode H - the more reliable mode - and want to shoot long bursts, think about purchasing the EE-1 Dot Sight. Burst mode H doesn't provide live view and in the case of longer bursts, you easily lose track until you have practiced a lot with the cam. For short bursts (depending on your subject three to 10 pics) you won't need the EE-1 Dot sight

Use one AF field (the bigger field) or the nine-field block for C-AF. In the case of eratically moving subjects, the nine-field block will be more helpful.

 

[kodacolor]

Olympus' PDAF works well with Panasonic's four Four Third Lens or Sigma's lens. Brings back the speedy AF that the Four Third Olympus or Panasonic Four Third DSLRs had.

 

[Tariag]

I agree with DonParrot.

Also don't forget to seek vertical lines and high contrast areas. If your frame doesn't have any vertical lines, you can turn your camera 90°, get focus (half press shutter) and turn back to compose.

 

[darrinlingle]

there seems to be different opinions and little detailed input from the manufacturers about how the Olympus E-M1's phase and contrast focus vs Panasonic's Dept from Defocus AF.

here's what i've heard:

the M1 uses phase first and then uses contrast focus to fine tune on certain lenses.

the M1 uses phase detect on the older 4/3 lenses (with adapters) and contrast focus on micro4/3 lenses.

It's far more complex. In C-AF in burst mode H, the E-M1 uses solely PDAF (with all lenses), in burst mose L it uses a hybrid AF with all but the FT lenses and in S-AF it uses solely CDAF with all but the FT lenses.

the gx8 uses the distance and focal length to predict generally where to focus and fine tunes it by contrast from there.

from my own uncontrolled test using the 100-400 pan-leica on a e-m1, it was disappointed using af-s and af-c, then af-c with tracking. i then got a gx8 to get the benefit of dual-IS and discovered something unexpected. the focus seemed much faster and i got a lot more keepers with the gx8 for birds in flight shots. i thought the oly hybrid focus was the best and fastest focus system. for those who say it works better with a pro oly lens, i used the e-m1 with the oly 40-150 f/2.8 and it was decent, but nothing like the speed of the gx8.

That's exactly what I whould have expected, although the GX8 C-AF is slower than the GH4, the GX80/85 and arguably the G80/81/85. The Panny DFD provides what I call a C-AF for dummies. You just activate the C-AF, aim at your subject and you will be provided a solid keeper rate. On the downside, you can practice as much as you want - you won't be able to increase this rate very much.

really? slower than the g85?

The E-M1, however, is quite a different beast that wants you to work far more precisely. And you have to accept that its C-SAF needs one or two tenths of a second to grasp the subject. So, your results may be disappointing in the beginning but when you have familiarised with the cam you can achieve a keeper rate that comes close to the ones of the big sports cameras.

But when it comes to C-AF + tracking, both cameras are more or less useless.

 

[darrinlingle]

Actually, neither Oly PDAF nor DfD are great improvements.

First of all, most MFT lenses work better (= AF faster) with their own manufacturers body. So no suprise that a Panasonic lens focuses faster on a Panasonic body.

Second, Panasonic AF is faster than Oly. Period. They're always a step ahead. Even an "old" body like GX7 without DfD already blows out the EM1 in low light. Maybe EM1 II will catch up (in C-AF at least) but I not even sure...

Allow me to laugh loud. DFD is a great, revolutionary development but there is no Panny cam that ecen comes close to the C-AF performance of the E-M1. I know what I'm talking about. Otherwise, the GH4 wouldn't get dusty im my camera cupboard.

Don't laugh until you try it. that's what i used to think. i've used olympus and panasonic/pana-leica lenses on the e-m1. in my uncontrolled non-lab tests, the gx8 was much much much faster than the e-m1 in different types of focus settings. the biggest difference was using my 100-400mm pana-leica on each body. no matter what focus setting i tried, i couldn't get many keepers when shooting birds in flight with the e-m1. the gx8 focus locked and most were keepers using both olympus and pana-leica lenses. i thought DFD was just a marketing phrase until i tried it.

Actually, a Panasonic DfD body with a Panasonic lens like the 12-35 is probably the fastest focusing system of any in the world today (in S-AF), even compared to high end dslrs. Especially in low light (-4 IL!!!).

In S-AF this arguably is true, but that's something compoletely different.

Third, the main point of PDAF on EM1 is using the old FT lenses. With FT lenses, EM1 will focus faster than any Panasonic body! It only has a marginal effect, and only in some situations with MFT lenses.

Oh so wrong.

Fourth, DfD is not at all a PDAF, it's just a slightly enhanced CDAF where the camera analyzes the image *before* starting to move the elements of the lens so it knows in which direction it must start. Basically it reduces the hunting. At the end, it goes a little faster but Panasonic AF was already impressive before DfD.

Again so wrong. Even my 75 1.8 C-AFs fine and reliably on the GH4.

Also note that Oly's PDAF can work with any manufacturer, FT or MFT lenses. DfD works only with some Panasonic lenses.

Knowing all this, your statement about the focusing speed of your gear is just obvious to me.

 

[DonParrot]

Actually, neither Oly PDAF nor DfD are great improvements.

First of all, most MFT lenses work better (= AF faster) with their own manufacturers body. So no suprise that a Panasonic lens focuses faster on a Panasonic body.

Second, Panasonic AF is faster than Oly. Period. They're always a step ahead. Even an "old" body like GX7 without DfD already blows out the EM1 in low light. Maybe EM1 II will catch up (in C-AF at least) but I not even sure...

Allow me to laugh loud. DFD is a great, revolutionary development but there is no Panny cam that ecen comes close to the C-AF performance of the E-M1. I know what I'm talking about. Otherwise, the GH4 wouldn't get dusty im my camera cupboard.

Don't laugh until you try it. that's what i used to think. i've used olympus and panasonic/pana-leica lenses on the e-m1. in my uncontrolled non-lab tests, the gx8 was much much much faster than the e-m1 in different types of focus settings. the biggest difference was using my 100-400mm pana-leica on each body. no matter what focus setting i tried, i couldn't get many keepers when shooting birds in flight with the e-m1. the gx8 focus locked and most were keepers using both olympus and pana-leica lenses. i thought DFD was just a marketing phrase until i tried it.

I have got a GH4 (featuring a faster AF than the GX8, by the way) and have been saying for year's that Panny's instant AF is better for beginners abd casual action shooters. But this doesn't mean that it's better if you want maximum results. If you have familiarised yourself with the E-M1 it will give you keeper rates none of the current DFD cams is able ro provide.

Actually, a Panasonic DfD body with a Panasonic lens like the 12-35 is probably the fastest focusing system of any in the world today (in S-AF), even compared to high end dslrs. Especially in low light (-4 IL!!!).

In S-AF this arguably is true, but that's something compoletely different.

Third, the main point of PDAF on EM1 is using the old FT lenses. With FT lenses, EM1 will focus faster than any Panasonic body! It only has a marginal effect, and only in some situations with MFT lenses.

Oh so wrong.

Fourth, DfD is not at all a PDAF, it's just a slightly enhanced CDAF where the camera analyzes the image *before* starting to move the elements of the lens so it knows in which direction it must start. Basically it reduces the hunting. At the end, it goes a little faster but Panasonic AF was already impressive before DfD.

Again so wrong. Even my 75 1.8 C-AFs fine and reliably on the GH4.

Also note that Oly's PDAF can work with any manufacturer, FT or MFT lenses. DfD works only with some Panasonic lenses.

Knowing all this, your statement about the focusing speed of your gear is just obvious to me.

 

[DonParrot]

there seems to be different opinions and little detailed input from the manufacturers about how the Olympus E-M1's phase and contrast focus vs Panasonic's Dept from Defocus AF.

here's what i've heard:

the M1 uses phase first and then uses contrast focus to fine tune on certain lenses.

the M1 uses phase detect on the older 4/3 lenses (with adapters) and contrast focus on micro4/3 lenses.

It's far more complex. In C-AF in burst mode H, the E-M1 uses solely PDAF (with all lenses), in burst mose L it uses a hybrid AF with all but the FT lenses and in S-AF it uses solely CDAF with all but the FT lenses.

the gx8 uses the distance and focal length to predict generally where to focus and fine tunes it by contrast from there.

from my own uncontrolled test using the 100-400 pan-leica on a e-m1, it was disappointed using af-s and af-c, then af-c with tracking. i then got a gx8 to get the benefit of dual-IS and discovered something unexpected. the focus seemed much faster and i got a lot more keepers with the gx8 for birds in flight shots. i thought the oly hybrid focus was the best and fastest focus system. for those who say it works better with a pro oly lens, i used the e-m1 with the oly 40-150 f/2.8 and it was decent, but nothing like the speed of the gx8.

That's exactly what I whould have expected, although the GX8 C-AF is slower than the GH4, the GX80/85 and arguably the G80/81/85. The Panny DFD provides what I call a C-AF for dummies. You just activate the C-AF, aim at your subject and you will be provided a solid keeper rate. On the downside, you can practice as much as you want - you won't be able to increase this rate very much.

really? slower than the g85?

Yup.

The E-M1, however, is quite a different beast that wants you to work far more precisely. And you have to accept that its C-SAF needs one or two tenths of a second to grasp the subject. So, your results may be disappointing in the beginning but when you have familiarised with the cam you can achieve a keeper rate that comes close to the ones of the big sports cameras.

But when it comes to C-AF + tracking, both cameras are more or less useless.

 

[Nemo0815]

The Gx8 AF is actually better than that of the GH4 (newer DFD version), just speed and blackouts are not...