50 MP Medium Format vs. 50 MP Full-Frame: Any Difference in IQ?

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Image Quality (IQ). It's what every photographer wants/needs. In that regard I was intrigued by the recent splash Hasselblad made by releasing news of its new compact, mirror-less 50 MP medium format digital camera, the X1D. For beginners like me, if you don't already know, medium format digital cameras have significantly larger sensors than so-called full-frame digital cameras. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the term full-frame refers to the frame size of 35mm film and is currently the largest digital sensor offering by many major camera manufactures such as Canon, Nikon, Sony, et. al.

So, I was wondering if the 50-megapixel medium format X1D by Hasselblad can/will deliver better image quality than the 50-megapixel Canon EOS 5DS / 5DS R (for example)and the comparable 42-megapixel Sony Alpha 7 RII, both of which have smaller full-frame sensors. (BTW, if anyone could provide the exact measurements of each senor format's length and width, I'd appreciate it for the sake of comparison.) Is there a limitation to the full-frame sensors that isn't apparent to me? Would the larger 50 MP medium format sensor be expected to deliver better image quality, or would the smaller 50 MP full-frame sensor deliver the same IQ?

To put it another way: would an image produced by a 50-megapixel sensor be expected to have the same quality no matter the size of the sensor itself that produced it? Is the size of the Hasselblad's X1D medium format sensor overkill? Can the same IQ be produced by smaller full-frame sensors with an equal number of pixels?

Inquiring minds want to know.
 
Image Quality (IQ). It's what every photographer wants/needs. In that regard I was intrigued by the recent splash Hasselblad made by releasing news of its new compact, mirror-less 50 MP medium format digital camera, the X1D. For beginners like me, if you don't already know, medium format digital cameras have significantly larger sensors than so-called full-frame digital cameras. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the term full-frame refers to the frame size of 35mm film and is currently the largest digital sensor offering by many major camera manufactures such as Canon, Nikon, Sony, et. al.

So, I was wondering if the 50-megapixel medium format X1D by Hasselblad can/will deliver better image quality than the 50-megapixel Canon EOS 5DS / 5DS R (for example)and the comparable 42-megapixel Sony Alpha 7 RII, both of which have smaller full-frame sensors. (BTW, if anyone could provide the exact measurements of each senor format's length and width, I'd appreciate it for the sake of comparison.) Is there a limitation to the full-frame sensors that isn't apparent to me? Would the larger 50 MP medium format sensor be expected to deliver better image quality, or would the smaller 50 MP full-frame sensor deliver the same IQ?

To put it another way: would an image produced by a 50-megapixel sensor be expected to have the same quality no matter the size of the sensor itself that produced it?
All other things being equal, which they never are in real life, the larger sensor will deliver better IQ.
Is the size of the Hasselblad's X1D medium format sensor overkill?
It depends entirely on the intended use; but, the picture made on the larger sensor will be capable of more. If your intended use is something like web publishing, it is overkill many times over. An m43 picture will probably do about as well for that.

Also, the larger sensor will probably be more capable in lower light.
Can the same IQ be produced by smaller full-frame sensors with an equal number of pixels?
All other things being equal, no.
Inquiring minds want to know.
 
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Look up 'camera equivalence' for methods that can make different sized sensors deliver equivalent images. Usually, but not always, the larger-sized sensor has a greater envelope of operation, in that it can work under a greater range of situations.

However, Canon makes a lot of really exceptional lenses, and lens quality is usually a deciding factor. That Hasselblad only has two.
 
Image Quality (IQ). It's what every photographer wants/needs. In that regard I was intrigued by the recent splash Hasselblad made by releasing news of its new compact, mirror-less 50 MP medium format digital camera, the X1D. For beginners like me, if you don't already know, medium format digital cameras have significantly larger sensors than so-called full-frame digital cameras. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the term full-frame refers to the frame size of 35mm film and is currently the largest digital sensor offering by many major camera manufactures such as Canon, Nikon, Sony, et. al.

So, I was wondering if the 50-megapixel medium format X1D by Hasselblad can/will deliver better image quality than the 50-megapixel Canon EOS 5DS / 5DS R (for example)and the comparable 42-megapixel Sony Alpha 7 RII, both of which have smaller full-frame sensors. (BTW, if anyone could provide the exact measurements of each senor format's length and width, I'd appreciate it for the sake of comparison.) Is there a limitation to the full-frame sensors that isn't apparent to me? Would the larger 50 MP medium format sensor be expected to deliver better image quality, or would the smaller 50 MP full-frame sensor deliver the same IQ?

To put it another way: would an image produced by a 50-megapixel sensor be expected to have the same quality no matter the size of the sensor itself that produced it? Is the size of the Hasselblad's X1D medium format sensor overkill? Can the same IQ be produced by smaller full-frame sensors with an equal number of pixels?

Inquiring minds want to know.
The equivalence ratio (crop factor) between the X1D and FF is 0.8x. This is the same as for APS-C vs mFT. On the other hand, if the Hassy lenses are a lot better than FF lenses, then that will extend the advantage, so the real differential will depend greatly on which lenses are being used on each system.

For example. the 45 / 3.5 on the X1D is equivalent to a 35 / 2.8 on FF. So, if we were comparing the Canon 35 / 1.4L II at f/2.8 to the 45 / 3.5 wide open on the X1D, then it will come down to how the lenses perform at their respective apertures (although, at base ISO, the X1D could use a longer exposure time and get more light on the sensor, making for a cleaner with greater DR).
 
Image Quality (IQ). It's what every photographer wants/needs.
That is not correct. What every photographer wants is good enough image quality for what they are photographing. IMHO only gear heads and pixel peepers are interested in IQ in the abstract, divorced from the subject that they are photographing and the print size that they need.

What I want/need is the knowledge of where to go and when to go to find what I want to shoot, the best possible light (or lighting if I am shooting indoors) and the time/patience to wait for that best possible light, the ability to recognise an opportunity for a shot, an artistic eye for composition, the technical knowledge to get the best out of my equipment, a lot of luck and the IQ that I need for the subject/print size.

More photographs are taken on camera phones which shows that most photographers only want/need a very low image quality.
 
Image quality comes down to a few things:
  • Lens quality. Canon/Nikon/Sony/Olympus/Panasonic/etc. can invest much more into designing high-quality lenses. It's generally easier do design good lenses for bigger formats, but MFT doesn't overcome the economics of scale here.
  • Low light. Multiply aperture by crop factor. Full frame wins
  • Other sensor properties. MFT would win slightly on dynamic range, but otherwise, the two would be similar now that MFT uses Sony sensors. Historically, FF was far ahead.
  • MFT also, in practice, offers a leaf shutter, which FF does not.
Overall, FF cameras are better devices. Let's not forget autofocus systems and things like this, where FF creams MFT.
 
Image quality comes down to a few things:
  • Lens quality. Canon/Nikon/Sony/Olympus/Panasonic/etc. can invest much more into designing high-quality lenses. It's generally easier do design good lenses for bigger formats, but MFT doesn't overcome the economics of scale here.
  • Low light. Multiply aperture by crop factor. Full frame wins
  • Other sensor properties. MFT would win slightly on dynamic range, but otherwise, the two would be similar now that MFT uses Sony sensors. Historically, FF was far ahead.
  • MFT also, in practice, offers a leaf shutter, which FF does not.
Overall, FF cameras are better devices. Let's not forget autofocus systems and things like this, where FF creams MFT.
I agree with most of your comments but I want to query two points.

When you say MFT offers a "leaf shutter" do you really mean leaf shutter (which would be in the lens) or are you referring to electronic shutters? AFAIK all MFT bodies have focal plane shutters and no MFT lenses have leaf shutters.

I can't agree that FF "creams" MFT for AF. I think that it would be fairer to say that DSLR PDAF is less accurate than mirrorless cameras' CDAF, has about the same single shot focusing speed but is still a bit better (depending on the bodies being compared) for continuous focusing. FF DSLRs are somewhat better for focusing in very low light.
 
I wish there was a +1000 button, not just =1.
 
Image Quality (IQ). It's what every photographer wants/needs.
Chris's comment on this is brilliant.

No, not all photographers crave better image quality. I'm content with Micro Four Thirds—it gives me all the quality I need, considering my subject matter, lighting conditions/environments, and output media. Anything more than that is just a waste on me, really, and would force me to carry heavier equipment than necessary. For others that line of sufficiency may be with APS-C, others get that with smartphones; for Ming Thein, though, it's in Medium Format.
In that regard I was intrigued by the recent splash Hasselblad made by releasing news of its new compact,
Compact? Is it, really? http://j.mp/297pm81

Sure, it's a lot smaller than the Medium Format digital cameras we've had until now. But I still wouldn't call it "compact."
mirror-less 50 MP medium format digital camera, the X1D. For beginners like me, if you don't already know, medium format digital cameras have significantly larger sensors than so-called full-frame digital cameras.
"Significantly larger" depends on what you compare the difference to. Medium Format is not just one size, it's like a family of sensors, where there's a variety similar to Four Thirds, APS-C and 35mm (Full Frame). In fact, MF has its own "Full Frame" size, and the X1D's sensor is far from it—actually, it's the smallest of all MF sensors, measuring approximately 44mm x 33mm.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the term full-frame refers to the frame size of 35mm film and is currently the largest digital sensor offering by many major camera manufactures such as Canon, Nikon, Sony, et. al.
Right. And Pentax.

35mm was basically the smallest film photographers used back in the day. There were smaller formats, but they were a lot less popular.
So, I was wondering if the 50-megapixel medium format X1D by Hasselblad can/will deliver better image quality than the 50-megapixel Canon EOS 5DS / 5DS R (for example)and the comparable 42-megapixel Sony Alpha 7 RII, both of which have smaller full-frame sensors. (BTW, if anyone could provide the exact measurements of each senor format's length and width, I'd appreciate it for the sake of comparison.)
The dimensions are written in the specifications of any camera on this site. Just search for one in the text box at the top of the page.
Is there a limitation to the full-frame sensors that isn't apparent to me? Would the larger 50 MP medium format sensor be expected to deliver better image quality, or would the smaller 50 MP full-frame sensor deliver the same IQ?

To put it another way: would an image produced by a 50-megapixel sensor be expected to have the same quality no matter the size of the sensor itself that produced it? Is the size of the Hasselblad's X1D medium format sensor overkill? Can the same IQ be produced by smaller full-frame sensors with an equal number of pixels?
Think of it like you'd think of any pair of different sensor sizes with the same megapixel count. Only the difference in size is even smaller. You probably know the crop factor between APS-C and 35mm is roughly 1.5x or 1.6x. From Four Thirds to 35mm it's 2x, so from Four Thirds to APS-C it's about 1.33x. The crop factor from the X1D's sensor to 35mm is 0.79x, or the other way around: 1.26x. So you can see that the difference between the 35mm format and the X1D's sensor size is smaller than the difference between APS-C and 35mm, and slightly smaller even than the difference between Four Thirds and APS-C.

What comes to your mind when you think about image quality while comparing sensor sizes? It's not some magical thing, it's comprised of things we can measure and pinpoint to, like dynamic range and noise in low light. Normally there's about a stop differentiating APS-C from Four Thirds, and about a stop differentiating 35mm from APS-C. So it's fair to say the X1D should be better than 35mm by less than a stop. That means, if you can shoot with a 35mm camera comfortably at ISO 6400, you'll feel the same about ISO 10000 or thereabouts on the X1D.

That's assuming an "all else equal" situation, and that's never going to happen.

One thing we can always compare is lenses. Currently, there are only two lenses announced for the X1D: 45mm f/3.5 and 90mm f/3.2. To get the same shot on a 35mm as you'd get with these lenses on an X1D wide-open, you'd need roughly a 35mm f/2.8 and a 70mm f/2.5 (rounded the numbers a bit). You can get that with a 24-70mm f/2.8 zoom, or have a wider aperture with primes and, you guessed it, either option is cheaper than buying both Hasselblad lenses.

Who might see better "image quality" with the Hasselblad? Ming Thein, obviously. But on a more serious note, you'd have to use the camera in an ideal situation—set it up on a sturdy tripod, stop the lens down to its peak sharpness point, and use the base ISO. That's where you'll get the best image quality the system is capable of. I don't think we know what the base ISO is yet, but it's safe to assume it wouldn't be any higher than 100. So the only camera that might match it entirely in terms of noise at base ISO is the Nikon D810, at ISO 64, assuming the Hasselblad's base ISO is 100. But we're splitting hairs here; the number of people in the whole world who need this subtle improvement is very close to zero.

OP, I hope you managed to understand what I wrote here. I wrote this as it flowed in my chain of thought, so it might not make a whole lot of sense to a beginner. My suggestion is simple: Don't worry about it. That's a $9,000 camera you'll probably never own, so no need to trouble yourself with it. Go out and take pictures with whatever you have, and if you need anything else, get what you need, not what's available.
 
Image Quality (IQ). It's what every photographer wants/needs. ...
Are you talking about Image Quality in the final product (perhaps a print) or Image Quality during the intermediate steps?

If you're talking about Image Quality in the final print, then for many common situations there will be no visible difference in an 8x10 print made from a 20 pixel APS-C body, and an 8x10 print made from a 50 megapixel medium format body.

If you are talking about Image Quality during intermediate processing, then unless you are shooting 8x10 film, drum scanning, and working in 32 bits per channel, you have made compromises on Image Quality.

The meaningful question is "when will a 50 megapixel medium format body make a visual difference in the final print?" and "How much of a difference will it make?"

The answer is that larger sensors allow you to get shallower Depth of Field. If your image will benefit from shallow Depth of Field, it helps to have a larger sensor.

Along with the shallow Depth of Field, you gain some low light ability.

Higher pixels counts help you in the following situations:
  • You want to make extreme crops to your images
  • You want to make a large print that will be viewed from a very close distance
  • You want to brag to your friends
Realistically. If you are making an 8x12 print on a 360ppi printer, the printer limits you to about 12. megapixels of information. Even if you could get more information onto the page, a human eye wouldn't be able to see it without a magnifying glass.

Once you get into large prints, you are dealing with larger viewing distances. There's no need for anywhere near 300ppi. 20 megapixels is more than enough for a roadside billboard.

.

The bottom line is that once you have enough quality to meet your needs, then there is little, if any, benefit to increasing quality. The reason we have such heated discussions is that different people have different needs, and therefore should make different decisions.

A photographer who is producing 8 x 12 prints for a model's portfolio book may never need more than 20 megapixels.

A portrait photographer selling large family portraits may want 50 megapixels. Of course the 50 megapixels is only a issue at delivery time, when the customer takes a very close look at his expensive large print. Once it is hung on the wall, 20 megapixels is likely enough.

.

Some photographers want to maximize the quality of their image captures so that 10 years from now they can re-visit these images, and re-work them. Other photographers will have styles that evolve over time, and never go back to rework old images.

.

A useful conversation is when various technologies will make a visible difference in the final result, and when the difference will be negligible.

For instance some photographers edit in 16 bits per channel. They could edit in 32 bits per channel, but the difference in the resulting image would likely not be visible, and editing in 32 bits is more work, takes longer, and uses more storage space. For some situations working in 16 bits is the right compromise.
 
I generally agree, except that:
The answer is that larger sensors allow you to get shallower Depth of Field. If your image will benefit from shallow Depth of Field, it helps to have a larger sensor.

Along with the shallow Depth of Field, you gain some low light ability.
Hasselblad doesn't make fast lenses compared to FF, at least not for their mirrorless system. FF will give narrowed DoF and better low light.
 
When you say MFT offers a "leaf shutter" do you really mean leaf shutter (which would be in the lens) or are you referring to electronic shutters? AFAIK all MFT bodies have focal plane shutters and no MFT lenses have leaf shutters.
I did. Most Hassy lenses have real leaf shutters. That's the major advantage of Hassy over a full frame, in my opinion. I am not sure about the new mirrorless. The original Hassy marketing implied leaf shutter, but I'm now thinking I may have misread it. I think it supports a leaf shutter when traditional Hassy lenses are adapted to it, but uses a normal focal plane shutter with its native lenses. But I might be wrong. Hassy was very vague on the couple of documents I looked at.
I can't agree that FF "creams" MFT for AF. I think that it would be fairer to say that DSLR PDAF is less accurate than mirrorless cameras' CDAF, has about the same single shot focusing speed but is still a bit better (depending on the bodies being compared) for continuous focusing. FF DSLRs are somewhat better for focusing in very low light.
I was actually talk about real-world MFT vs. real-world FF. I shouldn't have said dSLR The Hassy dSLRs have a single autofocus point, to Nikon's 153 autofocus points. The Hassy mirrorless focuses in 2-3 seconds, according to early reviews, to a few hundred milliseconds for Sony/Panasonic/Olympus mirrorless.

Honestly, I find the obsession with sensor size a little bit bizarre.
 
Image Quality (IQ). It's what every photographer wants/needs. In that regard I was intrigued by the recent splash Hasselblad made by releasing news of its new compact, mirror-less 50 MP medium format digital camera, the X1D. For beginners like me, if you don't already know, medium format digital cameras have significantly larger sensors than so-called full-frame digital cameras. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the term full-frame refers to the frame size of 35mm film and is currently the largest digital sensor offering by many major camera manufactures such as Canon, Nikon, Sony, et. al.

So, I was wondering if the 50-megapixel medium format X1D by Hasselblad can/will deliver better image quality than the 50-megapixel Canon EOS 5DS / 5DS R (for example)and the comparable 42-megapixel Sony Alpha 7 RII, both of which have smaller full-frame sensors. (BTW, if anyone could provide the exact measurements of each senor format's length and width, I'd appreciate it for the sake of comparison.) Is there a limitation to the full-frame sensors that isn't apparent to me? Would the larger 50 MP medium format sensor be expected to deliver better image quality, or would the smaller 50 MP full-frame sensor deliver the same IQ?

To put it another way: would an image produced by a 50-megapixel sensor be expected to have the same quality no matter the size of the sensor itself that produced it? Is the size of the Hasselblad's X1D medium format sensor overkill? Can the same IQ be produced by smaller full-frame sensors with an equal number of pixels?

Inquiring minds want to know.
I use a Pentax 645Z as my main camera, which I think uses the same sensor as the X1D.

I also shoot Full Frame and APS-C.

The cameras are all different. I don't pick based on "Image Quality" but rather "Image Look". There are seven main differences between the sensor sizes that determine which camera I use for a shoot:

1) The way the in-focus transitions to out-of-focus. If you're shooting a subject in front of an out of focus background and the transition region is not visible, you can get a similar look with all sensor sizes (subject to lens availability). But if you're shooting a subject in front of an out of focus background AND the transition region is visible, then different sensor sizes will render the transition differently. Many people talk of a Medium Format 'look'; I think that the out-of-focus transitions play a part in this. See Diorama effect; I think with larger sensors we're getting the opposite of this effect, which is why many people say Medium Format feels larger and more realistic, even though the actual physical sizes of the subject may be identical. This is probably discussed more in cinematography than still photography, e.g. 70mm.

2) Diffraction. If you want deep depth of field and aren't using focus stacking, Medium Format is sharper at smaller apertures.

3) Lens choice. Full Frame is the sweet spot when it comes to fast lenses. For example, you can get 24mm f/1.4 or 50mm f/1.2, both with excellent image quality. Lenses with equivalent angle of view aren't available on APS-C or MF. So if I want to shoot at 24mm f/1.4, I have no option - I have to use FF.

4) Proportions, e.g. 3:2 vs 4:3. If you have a particular output format required, picking a sensor which requires least cropping will maximise the sensor.

5) Availability of leaf shutter lenses. These alter the look of the bokeh; effectively a Smooth Trans Focus (STF) look as the image is exposed as the leaf shutter steps through all apertures. This can help with image 'pop' or 3D effect (although many other variables such as distance between subject/background, depth of field and light are equally as important).

6) Ergonomics. Shooting boudoir with a 645Z is not ideal, the camera is too big and gets in the way. I'm very interested in the X1D for this purpose.

7) Ease of use. To get the most out of a large sensor is harder! The larger the sensor, the more light that is required to maximise quality. If that light isn't available, it is like driving a Ferrari in a traffic jam. So much potential that can't be utilised fully.
 
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I think you mean MF, not MFT. That's where the confusion came from. The common abbreviations (in these forums, at least):
  • MF = Medium Format (or manual focus, of course)
  • MFT = Micro Four Thirds
 
As FF photographers like to point out to us crop camera photographers, even a small increase in sensor size can make a huge difference in image quality.

But like most things in life, the practical answer is, "it depends". How each camera is configured and supported by the manufacturer makes a huge practical difference in which camera a specific photographer will select and which camera will give that photographer the best results.

If all you want is the absolute highest measurable image quality in a camera, you will always select the camera with the largest sensor. But if you want a camera that meets all your needs, you will balance that consideration with others.

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If all you want is the absolute highest measurable image quality in a camera, you will always select the camera with the largest sensor...
Frequently, once you hit a certain point, increases in measurable image quality of the file, no longer translate to increases in visible image quality in the final print.
 
Yes. Conclusion is I can't type. I actually do this a lot, where I make the same typo over and over and don't notice. I'm really not sure why.
 
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but the term full-frame refers to the frame size of 35mm film and is currently the largest digital sensor offering by many major camera manufactures such as Canon, Nikon, Sony, et. al.
Right. And Pentax.
I'm not sure why you say "and Pentax". If you mean that Pentax offers MF cameras with bigger sensors than FF you're right - the Pentax 645z has the same size (44x33mm) sensor as the new Hassy.

If you're including Pentax in the list of makers that top out at FF you're wrong. As I say, I can't tell which you mean.
 


OP, I hope you managed to understand what I wrote here. I wrote this as it flowed in my chain of thought, so it might not make a whole lot of sense to a beginner.
I'm still digesting it, to be host. But I appreciate your thorough reply.

My suggestion is simple: Don't worry about it. That's a $9,000 camera you'll probably never own, so no need to trouble yourself with it. Go out and take pictures with whatever you have, and if you need anything else, get what you need, not what's available.
I think that's generally good advice, but all I have now is a Nikon L-22 point-and-shoot. I'm really just researching cameras now to decide what I would buy if I had an unlimited budget (which I don't now have and probably never will, but what the hey?). I'm also in the learning phase when it comes to equipment, and this question about the IQ of different formats came to mind. But I have to politely disagree with the poster who said IQ doesn't really matter that much to photographers, but I'm a rank amateur, so what do I know?
 

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