S602 White balance

[Hywel Harris]

After taking my 602 on holiday to Greece i came to print some and found many that were taken in overcast conditions (it was October) had a definite blue cast to them. I assumed this was due to the print cartridge cyan ink being a bit too strong (it is an Epson 900 with cheap non epson cartridges in it) so knocked the cyan levels down at print time. On further examination in PS i found that the white balance was wrong in the originals and areas that shoul have been grey had blue levels higher than should be.

Photos taken in very good light were OK but there was still a slight imbalance

Now I do know how to correct this but i don't particularly want to have to evaluate every shot to establish what correction should be necesary and yes I do know how to automate this with actions/droplets. So I started taking some photos of white paper and the results were quite enlightening. I dull daylight they were blue, in fluorescent they were yellow. So i took my camera in to Jessops in Nottingham where i bought it from and took some with a brand new S602 (the PRo this time) and the results were the same. I should mention that (obviously) i had the white balance set to auto all through these shots and the tests as I thought the camera white balance would be set in camera automatically.

I telephoned Fuji tech support and their comment was that the auto white balance was not very good and it was best not to rely on it!!!!.

SO it looks like I will have to carry a piece of white paper with me where ever I go just to check the white balance.

I would be interested to hear about other experiences regarding white balance and what the lighting conditions are that it is OK to rely on auto and those (natural) light conditions where it is essential to compensate either before or after the shot.

I do like the manual options available with the 602 but sometimes like on holiday I would prefer to just point and shoot.

Thanks

Hywel Harris

 

[TomCee]

Hywel Harris wrote:
---
Hi Hywel,

Most of the time I use the auto white balance, or the pre defined settings like bright sunlight, lamp light etc. Only with flash I sometimes go into the trouble of setting a manual white balance. Most of the times I have no problems.

--
Regards,
Tom
(FinePix S602z)
http://clik.to/tomcee
http://www.pbase.com/tomcee

S602Z FAQ:
http://www.marius.org/fuji602faq.php

 

[Caius]

Hywel,

All light is not the same, incandescent lights look yellow/red, fluorescent lights look green. Oudoor ambient light changes as well; it's red in the morning and afternoon and blue on overcast days. Your eyes do automatic white balancing all the time so we don't notice these colour changes much but unfortunately cameras are not that smart and they record the colours as they see them.

The "auto" WB settings on cameras (whether the S602 or any other camera) tries to determine the lighting conditions that it's under and makes an assumption about the various color casts but it is imperfect. It will work on most clear days but more often than not you should use the preset white balance settings on the camera. They will help out a lot.

To get a perfect white balance all the time you will have to use the camera's custom white balance settings. You can use a white piece of paper to do that though be careful in which white paper you use because they're not all white - some are more gray than others. Alternatively, you can use an 18% gray card that you can get at your local photo shop.

--
\\ Caius
http://www.caiusworld.com/photography

After taking my 602 on holiday to Greece i came to print some and
found many that were taken in overcast conditions (it was October)
had a definite blue cast to them. I assumed this was due to the
print cartridge cyan ink being a bit too strong (it is an Epson 900
with cheap non epson cartridges in it) so knocked the cyan levels
down at print time. On further examination in PS i found that the
white balance was wrong in the originals and areas that shoul have
been grey had blue levels higher than should be.

Photos taken in very good light were OK but there was still a
slight imbalance

Now I do know how to correct this but i don't particularly want to
have to evaluate every shot to establish what correction should be
necesary and yes I do know how to automate this with
actions/droplets. So I started taking some photos of white paper
and the results were quite enlightening. I dull daylight they were
blue, in fluorescent they were yellow. So i took my camera in to
Jessops in Nottingham where i bought it from and took some with a
brand new S602 (the PRo this time) and the results were the same. I
should mention that (obviously) i had the white balance set to auto
all through these shots and the tests as I thought the camera white
balance would be set in camera automatically.

I telephoned Fuji tech support and their comment was that the auto
white balance was not very good and it was best not to rely on
it!!!!.

SO it looks like I will have to carry a piece of white paper with
me where ever I go just to check the white balance.

I would be interested to hear about other experiences regarding
white balance and what the lighting conditions are that it is OK to
rely on auto and those (natural) light conditions where it is
essential to compensate either before or after the shot.

I do like the manual options available with the 602 but sometimes
like on holiday I would prefer to just point and shoot.

Thanks

Hywel Harris

 

[BigWaveDave]

In general, I find the results from the 602's auto white balance to be perfectly acceptable. However, there are occasions when the color balance goes wacky, usually under tough lighting conditions. For these shots, I'm now using an Expo/Disc to determine white balance. I find that it helps quite a bit. I don't think it's any better than a Kodak 18% gray card, but it sure is a lot easier to carry around.

The example below is lit with a mixture of tungsten and fluorescent light. The top image is a custom white balance as measured with the Expo/Disc. The middle image is auto white balance, and the bottom image was shot using the "incandescent light" white balance setting.



--
BigWaveDave -- (the goofball formerly known as tblue01)

 

[PaulS]

You might look into getting an ExpoDisc. See:

http://www.expodisc.com/

 

[cozdiver]

Is it really worth 50 bucks? I didn't quite follow how you use. Do you screw or hold it over the lense, set to Custom WB and depress the shutter then remove the expl disc? What's the difference between using white paper, 18 percent gray paper and this expo disc?

You might look into getting an ExpoDisc. See:

http://www.expodisc.com/

 

[BigWaveDave]

To answer your questions:

Is it really worth 50 bucks?

That's one you'll have to answer for yourself, but for the convenience alone, yes, I think it is worth the price. Judging from their website, you'd think otherwise, but the Expo/Disc is a high quality product.

I didn't quite follow how you use it. Do you screw or hold it over the lens ...

The Expo/Disc does not have any threads. I think this is done because some people (as the article on their website mentions) buy the biggest sized disc (72mm) and just hold it in front of the lens.

Assuming you have bought the same size disc as your lens adapter (I did), it will press fit onto the end of the adapter and replace your existing lens cap. It's a snug fit.

... set to Custom WB and depress the shutter then remove the expo disc?

The Expo/Disc can be a little tricky. There is a bit of a learning curve involved, and your initial results might be disappointing. Here's a quick rundown of the things I do for a non-electronic flash picture:

1. Fit the Expo/Disc onto the lens adapter
2. Set Mode dial to "P" or "A"
3. Set zoom to wide angle
4. Set to Custom WB 1 or 2

5. Now here is where it gets tricky. From the SUBJECT position, point the camera back at the spot where you'll eventually take the picture and depress the shutter (as one would do when taking an incident light reading). This is your new Custom WB. Press "OK" to accept it.

6. Remove the Expo/Disc, walk back to the camera position, turn around, take the picture

There are obviously some subjects (a tiger at the zoo, for example) where this method isn't real practical ...

What's the difference between using white paper, 18 percent gray paper and this expo disc?

The results you get with an Expo/Disc should be identical to an 18 percent gray card because, well, that's essentially what it is, but conveniently built into a lens cap.

Top image: Custom WB with Expo/Disc
Bottom image: Auto WB

You might look into getting an ExpoDisc. See:

http://www.expodisc.com/

--
BigWaveDave -- (the goofball formerly known as tblue01)

 

[Caius]

18% gray card, as can be obtained from your local photo shop, were created with the expressed purpose of measuring exposure or setting white balance. As such, the tonal range of the gray card is very well controlled and is designed to reflect back 18% of the light that hit it. In other words, control.

A white sheet of paper on the other hand, well that can be obtained for any purpose. A sheet to write on. A copier sheet. A photo paper sheet. They're not all exactly the same white nor do they all reflect the same amount of light back. In other words, no control.

I'm not saying that you can't use a white piece of paper. You certainly can and you'll get better results than use the auto WB setting on your camera, but I feel that an 18% gray card is just that wee bit better and for the cost (couple of $) it's worth it. Plus you can get them in small 4"x5" sizes to fit right in your camera bag.

--
\\ Caius
http://www.caiusworld.com/photography

What's the
difference between using white paper, 18 percent gray paper and
this expo disc?

 

[DomT]

I can see the last one is way too yellow but how do the other two compare with what you see with your eyes?

BigWaveDave wrote:
In general, I find the results from the 602's auto white balance to
be perfectly acceptable. However, there are occasions when the
color balance goes wacky, usually under tough lighting conditions.
For these shots, I'm now using an Expo/Disc to determine white
balance. I find that it helps quite a bit. I don't think it's any
better than a Kodak 18% gray card, but it sure is a lot easier to
carry around.
The example below is lit with a mixture of tungsten and fluorescent
light. The top image is a custom white balance as measured with
the Expo/Disc. The middle image is auto white balance, and the
bottom image was shot using the "incandescent light" white balance
setting.



BigWaveDave -- (the goofball formerly known as tblue01)

--
S602Z, Raynox DCR-1850 tele, Sunpak 383 + MX1700Z

 

[BigWaveDave]

Hi DomT,

Due to the mix of lights, this room is difficult to get right, colorwise.

Top image: Closest match. Ansel Adams poster, calendar, wall, and books have closest color match to real life scene.

Middle image: Overall reddish or pinkish cast but certainly acceptable. Books have noticeably gone reddish.

Bottom image: Yech!

BigWaveDave wrote:
In general, I find the results from the 602's auto white balance to
be perfectly acceptable. However, there are occasions when the
color balance goes wacky, usually under tough lighting conditions.
For these shots, I'm now using an Expo/Disc to determine white
balance. I find that it helps quite a bit. I don't think it's any
better than a Kodak 18% gray card, but it sure is a lot easier to
carry around.
The example below is lit with a mixture of tungsten and fluorescent
light. The top image is a custom white balance as measured with
the Expo/Disc. The middle image is auto white balance, and the
bottom image was shot using the "incandescent light" white balance
setting.



BigWaveDave -- (the goofball formerly known as tblue01)

--
S602Z, Raynox DCR-1850 tele, Sunpak 383 + MX1700Z

--
BigWaveDave -- (the goofball formerly known as tblue01)

 

[Hywel Harris]

All light is not the same, incandescent lights look yellow/red,
fluorescent lights look green. Oudoor ambient light changes as
well; it's red in the morning and afternoon and blue on overcast
days. Your eyes do automatic white balancing all the time so we
don't notice these colour changes much but unfortunately cameras
are not that smart and they record the colours as they see them.

The "auto" WB settings on cameras (whether the S602 or any other
camera) tries to determine the lighting conditions that it's under
and makes an assumption about the various color casts but it is
imperfect. It will work on most clear days but more often than not
you should use the preset white balance settings on the camera.
They will help out a lot.

To get a perfect white balance all the time you will have to use
the camera's custom white balance settings. You can use a white
piece of paper to do that though be careful in which white paper
you use because they're not all white - some are more gray than
others. Alternatively, you can use an 18% gray card that you can
get at your local photo shop.

Thanks for your input. It goes a little of the way to explain what I was experiencing and from other replies it seems the carrying of white/grey card or other devices in order to set white balance is common practice.

It looks like I will have to apply correction to some photos shot in auto mode when overcast.

Thanks

Hywel Harris

 

[mapucaboy]

Hi Caius

Went to my local camera store to buy a 18% gray card. Asked for the gray card and was told by the saleman that gray paper cannot be used for digital cameras to set the white balance. Said I would be wasting my money if I bought it as it is used for SLR's only. Would you be kind enough to confirm that I can us the 18% gray card for my s602z
thanks...mapucaboy

18% gray card, as can be obtained from your local photo shop, were
created with the expressed purpose of measuring exposure or setting
white balance. As such, the tonal range of the gray card is very
well controlled and is designed to reflect back 18% of the light
that hit it. In other words, control.

 

[sje]

And then how do you ure the 18% gray card?

Went to my local camera store to buy a 18% gray card. Asked for
the gray card and was told by the saleman that gray paper cannot be
used for digital cameras to set the white balance. Said I would be
wasting my money if I bought it as it is used for SLR's only. Would
you be kind enough to confirm that I can us the 18% gray card for
my s602z
thanks...mapucaboy

18% gray card, as can be obtained from your local photo shop, were
created with the expressed purpose of measuring exposure or setting
white balance. As such, the tonal range of the gray card is very
well controlled and is designed to reflect back 18% of the light
that hit it. In other words, control.

--
S602

 

[Caius]

Stay away from that salesman.

The 18% gray card will work on ALL camera, digital or otherwise. Here's why.

Under perfect lighting, the camera will meter the gray card as RGB:127,127,127. Now let's say that you're out in the early morning when there is a slightly redish cast. The camera might meter the card as RGB:180,129,131. The camera knows that the white balance card should be even across RGB but it's not. It's off on the reds by 53, the greens by 2 and the blues by 4. Using this information, the camera now has it's white balance setting and can process your images appropriately. Obviously this is an over simplification of the computations involved but that's the gist of it.

--
\\ Caius
http://www.caiusworld.com/photography

Went to my local camera store to buy a 18% gray card. Asked for
the gray card and was told by the saleman that gray paper cannot be
used for digital cameras to set the white balance. Said I would be
wasting my money if I bought it as it is used for SLR's only. Would
you be kind enough to confirm that I can us the 18% gray card for
my s602z
thanks...mapucaboy

18% gray card, as can be obtained from your local photo shop, were
created with the expressed purpose of measuring exposure or setting
white balance. As such, the tonal range of the gray card is very
well controlled and is designed to reflect back 18% of the light
that hit it. In other words, control.

 

[Timothy Dunnigan]

Hello mapucaboy,

Here's my explanation:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1012&message=3656514

Caius is correct, stay away from that salesman.

Timothy Dunnigan
http://www.helpforfamilies.com/photos/index.htm
http://www.pbase.com/tdunnigan/

Went to my local camera store to buy a 18% gray card. Asked for
the gray card and was told by the saleman that gray paper cannot be
used for digital cameras to set the white balance. Said I would be
wasting my money if I bought it as it is used for SLR's only. Would
you be kind enough to confirm that I can us the 18% gray card for
my s602z
thanks...mapucaboy

18% gray card, as can be obtained from your local photo shop, were
created with the expressed purpose of measuring exposure or setting
white balance. As such, the tonal range of the gray card is very
well controlled and is designed to reflect back 18% of the light
that hit it. In other words, control.

 

[vagel]

When using the Expo/Disc is the result as good when aiming at the subject to set the white balance?.......The tiger at the zoo situation.

thanks

The Expo/Disc can be a little tricky. There is a bit of a learning
curve involved, and your initial results might be disappointing.
Here's a quick rundown of the things I do for a non-electronic
flash picture:

1. Fit the Expo/Disc onto the lens adapter
2. Set Mode dial to "P" or "A"
3. Set zoom to wide angle
4. Set to Custom WB 1 or 2
5. Now here is where it gets tricky. From the SUBJECT position,
point the camera back at the spot where you'll eventually take the
picture and depress the shutter (as one would do when taking an
incident light reading). This is your new Custom WB. Press "OK"
to accept it.
6. Remove the Expo/Disc, walk back to the camera position, turn
around, take the picture

 

[DomT]

This is one of the many things I do not understand. Knowing that RGB:256, 256, 256 is full white and RGB:0, 0, 0, is full black, why is RGB:127,127,127 18% grey and not 50% grey?

Caius wrote:
The 18% gray card will work on ALL camera, digital or otherwise.
Here's why.
Under perfect lighting, the camera will meter the gray card as
RGB:127,127,127. Now let's say that you're out in the early morning
when there is a slightly redish cast. The camera might meter the
card as RGB:180,129,131. The camera knows that the white balance
card should be even across RGB but it's not. It's off on the reds
by 53, the greens by 2 and the blues by 4. Using this information,
the camera now has it's white balance setting and can process your
images appropriately. Obviously this is an over simplification of
the computations involved but that's the gist of it.
\\ Caius
http://www.caiusworld.com/photography

--
S602Z, Raynox DCR-1850 tele, Sunpak 383 + MX1700Z

 

[JediBear]

ReWhiteBalance:

Often my photos have a red cast and there have sometimes been quite sitinct colour casts to photos taken in different light situations. So I've become aware of this issue. This may seem a naive question but how do white balance corrections in software like Paintbrush compare to using a white balance tool before taking the pic.

Jan.

Here's my explanation:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1012&message=3656514

Caius is correct, stay away from that salesman.

Timothy Dunnigan
http://www.helpforfamilies.com/photos/index.htm
http://www.pbase.com/tdunnigan/

Went to my local camera store to buy a 18% gray card. Asked for
the gray card and was told by the saleman that gray paper cannot be
used for digital cameras to set the white balance. Said I would be
wasting my money if I bought it as it is used for SLR's only. Would
you be kind enough to confirm that I can us the 18% gray card for
my s602z
thanks...mapucaboy

18% gray card, as can be obtained from your local photo shop, were
created with the expressed purpose of measuring exposure or setting
white balance. As such, the tonal range of the gray card is very
well controlled and is designed to reflect back 18% of the light
that hit it. In other words, control.

--

Began working life as professional 'stills' photographer for film company. My dad was a photo-amateur so I'm happy to have it in the blood.

 

[Caius]

This has A LOT of people confused but it really isn't once you realize that the confusion lies in the way that the card is named.

An 18% gray card DOES NOT mean that the card has 18% gray on it. What it means is that the card reflects back 18% of the light that hits it.

The shade of gray is really irrelevant. It could be a dark gray, light gray, whatever. The fact that it's gray just means that the card is compossed of equal part of the three primary colors R, G, B. It doesn't matter whether it's 97,97,97 or 128,128,128 any other combination of equal primary colors.

This is why you can not create an 18% gray card on your printer. You might be able to create a card that is gray, no question about that, but the trick is to use pigments that only relfect back 18% of the light that hits it.

Makes sense?

--
\\ Caius
http://www.caiusworld.com/photography

This is one of the many things I do not understand. Knowing that
RGB:256, 256, 256 is full white and RGB:0, 0, 0, is full black, why
is RGB:127,127,127 18% grey and not 50% grey?

 

[ianR]

Aiming the Expodisc at the subject can give really good results.But you might want to experiment with other ways in mixed light for example. Pointing from the subject at a dominent light source is one way of overcoming that.
regards
Ian

thanks

The Expo/Disc can be a little tricky. There is a bit of a learning
curve involved, and your initial results might be disappointing.
Here's a quick rundown of the things I do for a non-electronic
flash picture:

1. Fit the Expo/Disc onto the lens adapter
2. Set Mode dial to "P" or "A"
3. Set zoom to wide angle
4. Set to Custom WB 1 or 2
5. Now here is where it gets tricky. From the SUBJECT position,
point the camera back at the spot where you'll eventually take the
picture and depress the shutter (as one would do when taking an
incident light reading). This is your new Custom WB. Press "OK"
to accept it.
6. Remove the Expo/Disc, walk back to the camera position, turn
around, take the picture

--
6900