Copyright infringement or overreaction?

Oh God yes!! This is certainly an issue that the minister should
take up with his flock!! Some photos of old ladies have been
copied!! An "artist" has be stolen from! Oh heavens!! Let the
inquisition begin!! A part of someones soul has be "taken". Their
imagination has be pilfered!!
I'm glad that you agree with me. No need to get so overwrought, though. I'm sure that it can be handled discretely.

Thanks for your support,

-Ed ( All my best for the New Year ) W.
http://www.pbase.com/ewaldorph/dpreview
Sony F505v w/Canon 500D +2 Diopter lens
 
trying to speak rationally to this Bozo, are you? Don't waste your breath. He's a troll. If my browser was working properly and I could get past Phil's flakey security to check his profile I'm sure I'll find that its a phoney.

Here, look. I got a quick snapshot of him the last time he posted:



Don't sweat the small stuff—or the small minds.

-Ed ( All my best for the New Year ) W.
http://www.pbase.com/ewaldorph/dpreview
Sony F505v w/Canon 500D +2 Diopter lens
Oh ya, lets have every photo lab establish copyright ownership when
someone brings in a photo for reproduction. God... don't you
people have something better to do?

How about this? Just stop taking pictures at your church, and let
somebody less anal do it.
--
LisaFX
http://www.pbase.com/lisafx
Canon S20, Sony S75, F707
 
The Church owns the prints not the copyright. The service rendered
(taking the photos) is the tithe not the copyright to the pictures.
This is the same as if I tithe a $1000 check to the church as long as the church doesn’t cash it in. I only gave them the check not the cash in my checking account. What good is a tithe if the church can’t use it?
--
Some IR and more, My tiny F707 Album.
http://home.earthlink.net/~metodd/index/Index.htm
 
Aye, there's the rub mate. But I'm afraid most of those folks for whom you are holding up the mirror of introspection won't notice themselves—even though a couple of them are in this thread (not counting the true Troll, of course.)

Perhaps that's why Lisa is taking pictures. They certainly have illuminated her congregation ;)

-Ed ( All my best for the New Year ) W.
http://www.pbase.com/ewaldorph/dpreview
Sony F505v w/Canon 500D +2 Diopter lens
... On the other
hand this woman was not acting on behalf of the church, the Lord,
or anyone but herself in removing the picture. I would never help
myself to something posted for the benefits of all and I suspect
neither would you.
Absolutely, Lisa (though none of this relieves the church
authorities of their due responsibility for concerned and active
mediation). That was so obviously the whole point of your original
post, and it has both amused and saddened me to watch the way this
thread has been turned into a politico-religious football. Any
question of whether you were using "tithe" in its literal,
numerical sense couldn't be much further from the real issue; nor
is it anybody else's business.

Not only is it risibly hypocritical of a church member to act the
way the offender did in appropriating your work, but it represents
behaviour that I've seen far too often for comfort within church
communities -- from those involved as administrative, pastoral and
congregational members alike. That's the rub, and it has caused me
increasing scepticism through roughly the last 40 of my 58 years
(since I learned to get my head above the hype and think honestly
and clearly for myself about it) in the matter of what our churches
really stand for.

I'm afraid that christianity -- with a small "c" (my preference),
in its secular sense of ethics, civic responsibility, general moral
values and goodwill -- is something I never count on finding
reliably in churches. Less likely as one looks towards their senior
echelons of membership, least of all in their leaders.

If that sounds too harsh or sweeping to some, better believe it's
born far more of historical encounter and observation than of pure
cynicism.

You are to be commented for the way you've managed to retain your
poise in this discussion!

Good luck with it,

Mike
 
Mike,
Has nothing to do with imporance. The architect who commissioned
the work suggested it. I have a great deal invested in the work I
do - both financially and personal.
I'm sure where you are coming from but sure doesn't sound like you
have anything that someone would wish to steal.
Just my opinion.
RON C
Hey, Ron! Troll Alert:



Hi, I'm Mike! DUH!
Oh yes... an important person such as yourself better have his name
noted if his valuable work is used in the church brochure....
ohhhh..... ahhh.....
 
I don't have to pretend I'm some sort of artist.
Oh, but you do, Mike. You surely do. You pretend to be the consummate verbal surgeon, dropping in on average once a week to mentor the squabbling children of the forum and dishing out your eloquent sagacity and advice with the disdain of someone in evening dress scattering wheat to the chooks.

The call of satire moves me to question the competence of your alma mater. I'd expect a chemical engineer to have had it drummed into him, repeatedly from his freshman year, that there are things out there you just shouldn't be inhaling. I'm almost convinced your school blew it with that one.

But in all truth and seriousness, mister, you've got me worried in that you're still here after nearly 13 months. Most people with your obvious handle on life tire quickly of our intellectual peregrinations -- embarrassingly shallow and misguided as they obviously are to you -- and simply move to greener pastures.

So what's the appeal? I'm blowed if I can see one, so maybe there's an actual need for you to just keep lashing out mindlessly.

Might I recommend organised religion to relieve your pain? Or (far more likely, I surmise) is that something you've already tried and found sadly wanting?

MF
 
My pleasure, actually. As I said before, living here below the Bible Belt I meet a lot of these creatures and I take a perverse pleasure skewering them with their own sactimonious barbs and stewing them in their own bile broth.

We have a plethora of sanctimonious hypocrites parading around dragging their martyr's cross and their shiny shield of Bible-babble and flailing the sword righteous indignation in defense of The Word—or more particularly their particular dialect and interpretation of it. You may have spotted one or two of them here.

Fortunately it's pretty hard for them to maneuver, burdended like that, and it makes it easy to avoid them; particularly if I've just had my lunch.

(I realize that it's not really the Christian thing to do but then, unlike them, I don't claim to be. Nor do I festoon myself with my religion like some designer garment. )

-Ed ( All my best for the New Year ) W.
http://www.pbase.com/ewaldorph/dpreview
Sony F505v w/Canon 500D +2 Diopter lens
caveat*

...then you won't appear uninformed and misdirected and your
efforts might even be helpful and not so easily dismissed.
Ed, I am so grateful that you are on this thread and actually seem
to understand my point here. As you so astutely point out, reading
the thread actually helps ;-)

It gets frustrating to have to defend my work, my relationship to
my church, even my relationship with God! I certainly had no clue
this would be such a hot-button issue. It seems that just by
broaching the topic I have suddenly become greedy, litigious,
unchristian, untalented and a mugger of old ladies.

Maybe next I should start a thread on politics - ROFL!

Lisa (grateful for your input)
 
Nope.

The point is that she never gave or donated the photos to the church. they were posted on the board for viewing only. Statements were published to the effect that copies could be optained from Lisa for a buck each.

What lisa donated was her time and talent and a license to view the prints.

-Ed ( All my best for the New Year ) W.
http://www.pbase.com/ewaldorph/dpreview
Sony F505v w/Canon 500D +2 Diopter lens
Question,
If the pictures you have taken are of the church and or church
functions for the church as part of your tithe , aren’t the
pictures now church property and no longer yours? I think the
donated pictures are out of your hands. Now if this lady stole your
pictures from your privet stash then I think you could take action
like send her the bill for the picture.

--
Some IR and more, My tiny F707 Album.
http://home.earthlink.net/~metodd/index/Index.htm
 
I responded in detail to one of your other posts. You don't seem to grasp the concept of intellectual property rights.

If you buy a video at the store do you think that gives you the right to copy it and give some to your friends? If you do you would be breaking the law.

If you rent a video would you make a copy and keep it for yourself? If you do your breaking the law.

If Bill Blass loaned your church a dozen dresses for a charity fashion show would you schlep one down to your local dressmaker and have him dash off a copy for your wife? If you did you'd be breaking the law.

There is no difference here. Lisa had a clear understanding with the pastor that the pics were for posting for the enjoyment by the entire congregation. Copies could be had from her for a nominal fee.

Nothing could be plainer.

-Ed ( All my best for the New Year ) W.
http://www.pbase.com/ewaldorph/dpreview
Sony F505v w/Canon 500D +2 Diopter lens
The Church owns the prints not the copyright. The service rendered
(taking the photos) is the tithe not the copyright to the pictures.
This is the same as if I tithe a $1000 check to the church as long
as the church doesn’t cash it in. I only gave them the check not
the cash in my checking account. What good is a tithe if the church
can’t use it?
--
Some IR and more, My tiny F707 Album.
http://home.earthlink.net/~metodd/index/Index.htm
 
Twice!

Attaboy!

-Ed ( All my best for the New Year ) W.
http://www.pbase.com/ewaldorph/dpreview
Sony F505v w/Canon 500D +2 Diopter lens
I don't have to pretend I'm some sort of artist.
Oh, but you do, Mike. You surely do. You pretend to be the
consummate verbal surgeon, dropping in on average once a week to
mentor the squabbling children of the forum and dishing out your
eloquent sagacity and advice with the disdain of someone in evening
dress scattering wheat to the chooks.

The call of satire moves me to question the competence of your alma
mater. I'd expect a chemical engineer to have had it drummed into
him, repeatedly from his freshman year, that there are things out
there you just shouldn't be inhaling. I'm almost convinced your
school blew it with that one.

But in all truth and seriousness, mister, you've got me worried in
that you're still here after nearly 13 months. Most people with
your obvious handle on life tire quickly of our intellectual
peregrinations -- embarrassingly shallow and misguided as they
obviously are to you -- and simply move to greener pastures.

So what's the appeal? I'm blowed if I can see one, so maybe there's
an actual need for you to just keep lashing out mindlessly.

Might I recommend organised religion to relieve your pain? Or (far
more likely, I surmise) is that something you've already tried and
found sadly wanting?

MF
 
I don't think that you understand what a "Church" is supposed to be. Perhaps if you are talking about a HUGE denomination like Roman Catholism, then "The Church" may seem like a big impersonal entity. The Church however, is in fact just the total of the believers. The photographer herself is "the Church".

As for getting the work "stolen".... she didn't. She was charging cost (or maybe even less) for reproductions. She didn't do the work she did for God for a profit but as a labor of love. It's totally up to her as to whether she gives only the labor or the fruits thereof.

Joe
Why do a lot of people on this thread try to protect the "rights"
of the church while it is a person that got his work stolen ?
--
He Is No Fool Who Gives Up What He Cannot Keep For That Which He Cannot Lose.
 
The Church owns the prints not the copyright. The service rendered
(taking the photos) is the tithe not the copyright to the pictures.
This is the same as if I tithe a $1000 check to the church as long
as the church doesn’t cash it in. I only gave them the check not
the cash in my checking account. What good is a tithe if the church
can’t use it?
Actually, a better analogy is if you tithe a $1000 check and when they pass the plate to the next person they take it out and take it home with them.

LisaFX
http://www.pbase.com/lisafx
Canon S20, Sony S75, F707
 
Attaboy!

-Ed ( All my best for the New Year ) W.
http://www.pbase.com/ewaldorph/dpreview
Sony F505v w/Canon 500D +2 Diopter lens
I don't have to pretend I'm some sort of artist.
Oh, but you do, Mike. You surely do. You pretend to be the
consummate verbal surgeon, dropping in on average once a week to
mentor the squabbling children of the forum and dishing out your
eloquent sagacity and advice with the disdain of someone in evening
dress scattering wheat to the chooks.

The call of satire moves me to question the competence of your alma
mater. I'd expect a chemical engineer to have had it drummed into
him, repeatedly from his freshman year, that there are things out
there you just shouldn't be inhaling. I'm almost convinced your
school blew it with that one.

But in all truth and seriousness, mister, you've got me worried in
that you're still here after nearly 13 months. Most people with
your obvious handle on life tire quickly of our intellectual
peregrinations -- embarrassingly shallow and misguided as they
obviously are to you -- and simply move to greener pastures.

So what's the appeal? I'm blowed if I can see one, so maybe there's
an actual need for you to just keep lashing out mindlessly.

Might I recommend organised religion to relieve your pain? Or (far
more likely, I surmise) is that something you've already tried and
found sadly wanting?

MF
--
LisaFX
http://www.pbase.com/lisafx
Canon S20, Sony S75, F707
 
I'd say it depends on your purpose in donating the photos. Legally, of course they're yours, but that's not a relevant concern because you haven't been materially damaged.

That said, if your purpose is to render a service, you should render it without strings. In other words, REALLY give the images away, including the right to make copies.

On the other hand, if you are using the church work as a door-opener for a business, then you should properly identify that and put a notice in the church bulletin plainly stating that this was an "introductory offer" and that copies are only to be made by you. But your timing will be bad, because your motive will now look small-minded whether or not you intend it to be, and you'll be making your parishoners wrong, which it's guaranteed they won't appreciate. Is making them wrong going to help or hurt your prospective business?

So whether you're over-reacting or not depends on the value you place on ownership vs. the value you place on giving to the church. How would the founder of your church behave in a similar position? The answer to that will either make you feel good or feel crummy. Either way, your feeling tells you where you stand in the matter and then you get to decide if you're over-reacting or not.

If it were me, I'd try letting go both of the pictures and of the feelings you're experiencing. Probably be better for business in the long run.
 
Believe me, I can relate. It is exactly that attitude that kept me out of churches for years. I live in Florida. If Missouri is the buckle of the bible belt, what does that make Florida? LOL. Thank goodness (and God) that my church isn't like that. Everyone who goes there, the "offender" included are good people and accepting of others and different points of view. I could never belong somewhere that I had to be hit over the head with a lot of rigid dogma. They'd be horrified if they read this thread and would probably be the first ones to jump in and set the record straight.
We have a plethora of sanctimonious hypocrites parading around
dragging their martyr's cross and their shiny shield of
Bible-babble and flailing the sword righteous indignation in
defense of The Word—or more particularly their particular dialect
and interpretation of it. You may have spotted one or two of them
here.

Fortunately it's pretty hard for them to maneuver, burdended like
that, and it makes it easy to avoid them; particularly if I've just
had my lunch.

(I realize that it's not really the Christian thing to do but then,
unlike them, I don't claim to be. Nor do I festoon myself with my
religion like some designer garment. )

-Ed ( All my best for the New Year ) W.
http://www.pbase.com/ewaldorph/dpreview
Sony F505v w/Canon 500D +2 Diopter lens
caveat*

...then you won't appear uninformed and misdirected and your
efforts might even be helpful and not so easily dismissed.
Ed, I am so grateful that you are on this thread and actually seem
to understand my point here. As you so astutely point out, reading
the thread actually helps ;-)

It gets frustrating to have to defend my work, my relationship to
my church, even my relationship with God! I certainly had no clue
this would be such a hot-button issue. It seems that just by
broaching the topic I have suddenly become greedy, litigious,
unchristian, untalented and a mugger of old ladies.

Maybe next I should start a thread on politics - ROFL!

Lisa (grateful for your input)
--
LisaFX
http://www.pbase.com/lisafx
Canon S20, Sony S75, F707
 
This whole thread is getting kind of redundant, don't you think? Evidently I was just not sufficiently clear in my original post for so many non-trolls to misunderstand the point.

Lisa (sigh...)
The point is that she never gave or donated the photos to the
church. they were posted on the board for viewing only. Statements
were published to the effect that copies could be optained from
Lisa for a buck each.

What lisa donated was her time and talent and a license to view the
prints.

-Ed ( All my best for the New Year ) W.
http://www.pbase.com/ewaldorph/dpreview
Sony F505v w/Canon 500D +2 Diopter lens
Question,
If the pictures you have taken are of the church and or church
functions for the church as part of your tithe , aren’t the
pictures now church property and no longer yours? I think the
donated pictures are out of your hands. Now if this lady stole your
pictures from your privet stash then I think you could take action
like send her the bill for the picture.

--
Some IR and more, My tiny F707 Album.
http://home.earthlink.net/~metodd/index/Index.htm
--
LisaFX
http://www.pbase.com/lisafx
Canon S20, Sony S75, F707
 
I'd say it depends on your purpose in donating the photos.
Legally, of course they're yours, but that's not a relevant
concern because you haven't been materially damaged.

That said, if your purpose is to render a service, you should
render it without strings. In other words, REALLY give the images
away, including the right to make copies.
I did, indeed render a service - TO THE CHURCH. Not to the parishoner who took the photo down. The church would probably not appreciate it either, since no one connected with the church was asked. The woman who did it is notorious for always doing the wrong thing and is taken with a heap of salt by everyone, including me. Furthermore, rendering the "service" did not mean that I released all right to the photos. When a gift is given, the giver and receiver have and understanding about what is given. That does not give the right to a third party to take a part of that gift.
On the other hand, if you are using the church work as a
door-opener for a business, then you should properly identify that
and put a notice in the church bulletin plainly stating that this
was an "introductory offer" and that copies are only to be made by
you. But your timing will be bad, because your motive will now
look small-minded whether or not you intend it to be, and you'll
be making your parishoners wrong, which it's guaranteed they won't
appreciate. Is making them wrong going to help or hurt your
prospective business?
Everyone at our church has business cards posted and many of us try to support our fellow members in their businesses and they support us. I don't see anything wrong with that. It is an established practice at our church. I don't know if that's unusual or not, never having attended another one. And of course I don't want ot hurt anyone's feelings or make them feel wrong, hence this original post, which has, as I hoped, yeilded some very constructive advice.
So whether you're over-reacting or not depends on the value you
place on ownership vs. the value you place on giving to the church.
How would the founder of your church behave in a similar position?
The answer to that will either make you feel good or feel crummy.
Either way, your feeling tells you where you stand in the matter
and then you get to decide if you're over-reacting or not.
To me it shouldn't be an either or situation. I should be able to render a valuable service to the church, which the members enjoy and almost universally are responsible in their use, without having to subject myself to the unauthorized use of my pictures.

Much of this thread seems to imply that my church has somehow "misused" my pictures. They haven't. They couldn't, because, as you pointed out, I donated the unconditional rights FOR THE CHURCH to use the pictures. As I have stated until my fingers are numb, the woman who took the pictures was not acting for the church, but taking the pictures to copy and give away as gifts. Not only is that wrong from my perspective, a enlargement of a 4x6 inkjet print is a pretty cheesy gift.
If it were me, I'd try letting go both of the pictures and of the
feelings you're experiencing. Probably be better for business in
the long run.
I agree.

--
LisaFX
http://www.pbase.com/lisafx
Canon S20, Sony S75, F707
 
Oh you dastardly person! You have spanked me so completely! Even my alma mater has been brough into question! You've uncovered me completely! Oh now I must shrink away into oblivion after incurring your caustic wrath. Maybe, just maybe, if I find religion, as you suggest, I could some day become as balanced as you. Your previous diatribe is, I assume, copyrighted?
I don't have to pretend I'm some sort of artist.
Oh, but you do, Mike. You surely do. You pretend to be the
consummate verbal surgeon, dropping in on average once a week to
mentor the squabbling children of the forum and dishing out your
eloquent sagacity and advice with the disdain of someone in evening
dress scattering wheat to the chooks.

The call of satire moves me to question the competence of your alma
mater. I'd expect a chemical engineer to have had it drummed into
him, repeatedly from his freshman year, that there are things out
there you just shouldn't be inhaling. I'm almost convinced your
school blew it with that one.

But in all truth and seriousness, mister, you've got me worried in
that you're still here after nearly 13 months. Most people with
your obvious handle on life tire quickly of our intellectual
peregrinations -- embarrassingly shallow and misguided as they
obviously are to you -- and simply move to greener pastures.

So what's the appeal? I'm blowed if I can see one, so maybe there's
an actual need for you to just keep lashing out mindlessly.

Might I recommend organised religion to relieve your pain? Or (far
more likely, I surmise) is that something you've already tried and
found sadly wanting?

MF
--
F717 (ya!), S230 (carry it everywhere), S40 (wife), Oly 2000 (Kid)
 
oh ya, technical publisher? Isn't that synonymous with unemployed, bloak? Now go feed the dingo.
I don't have to pretend I'm some sort of artist.
Oh, but you do, Mike. You surely do. You pretend to be the
consummate verbal surgeon, dropping in on average once a week to
mentor the squabbling children of the forum and dishing out your
eloquent sagacity and advice with the disdain of someone in evening
dress scattering wheat to the chooks.

The call of satire moves me to question the competence of your alma
mater. I'd expect a chemical engineer to have had it drummed into
him, repeatedly from his freshman year, that there are things out
there you just shouldn't be inhaling. I'm almost convinced your
school blew it with that one.

But in all truth and seriousness, mister, you've got me worried in
that you're still here after nearly 13 months. Most people with
your obvious handle on life tire quickly of our intellectual
peregrinations -- embarrassingly shallow and misguided as they
obviously are to you -- and simply move to greener pastures.

So what's the appeal? I'm blowed if I can see one, so maybe there's
an actual need for you to just keep lashing out mindlessly.

Might I recommend organised religion to relieve your pain? Or (far
more likely, I surmise) is that something you've already tried and
found sadly wanting?

MF
--
F717 (ya!), S230 (carry it everywhere), S40 (wife), Oly 2000 (Kid)
 
And if your brain worked as well, you could get a lot more things done as well.
Here, look. I got a quick snapshot of him the last time he posted:



Don't sweat the small stuff—or the small minds.

-Ed ( All my best for the New Year ) W.
http://www.pbase.com/ewaldorph/dpreview
Sony F505v w/Canon 500D +2 Diopter lens
Oh ya, lets have every photo lab establish copyright ownership when
someone brings in a photo for reproduction. God... don't you
people have something better to do?

How about this? Just stop taking pictures at your church, and let
somebody less anal do it.
--
LisaFX
http://www.pbase.com/lisafx
Canon S20, Sony S75, F707
--
F717 (ya!), S230 (carry it everywhere), S40 (wife), Oly 2000 (Kid)
 

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