stacked sensors, where are Canon?

[Mikael Risedal]

I just started a discussion about where is Canon regarding the latest R&D and sensors , it was locked by the moderator in Canon Canon EOS-1D / 5D / 6D Talk Forum

stacked image sensors will become the heart of products in the future.

where are Canon in this race ?

Canon can not match Sony, Panasonic etc regarding the "old column wise ADC" and low read out noise. Therefore the low DR at base iso from Canon

And now we are entering stacked sensors and with all the advantages they provide= fast read out, video, fill factor, signal /noise etc etc

--
Member of Swedish Photographers Association since 1984
Canon, Hasselblad, Leica, Nikon, Linhoff, Sinar,Zeiss, Phantom 2+
Ernest Hemingway to Irving Penn:?“Your photos are really good. What camera do you use?”?Irving Penn to Ernest Hemingway:?“Your novels are excellent. What typewriter do you use?”

 

[aramgrg]

How much do you get?

 

[Mikael Risedal]

How much do you get?

nada , I'm interested in why Canon does not keep up with the development of new sensors tech and I own a lot of good Canon lenses

and you?

 

[Abe R Ration]

I just started a discussion about where is Canon regarding the latest R&D and sensors , it was locked by the moderator in Canon Canon EOS-1D / 5D / 6D Talk Forum

stacked image sensors will become the heart of products in the future.

where are Canon in this race ?

Canon can not match Sony, Panasonic etc regarding the "old column wise ADC" and low read out noise. Therefore the low DR at base iso from Canon

And now we are entering stacked sensors and with all the advantages they provide= fast read out, video, fill factor, signal /noise etc etc

Canon is in the sensor bussiness only for their SLRs. They have old fabs (180nm and 500nm) for which it would not be economically viable to develope more advanced features.

It is likely that at some point Canon will move to being "fabless" like most sensor manufacturers and maybe then they'll get column parallell ADC.

Stacking by itself does not give any improvements do SNR or fill factor.

 

[Mikael Risedal]

I just started a discussion about where is Canon regarding the latest R&D and sensors , it was locked by the moderator in Canon Canon EOS-1D / 5D / 6D Talk Forum

stacked image sensors will become the heart of products in the future.

where are Canon in this race ?

Canon can not match Sony, Panasonic etc regarding the "old column wise ADC" and low read out noise. Therefore the low DR at base iso from Canon

And now we are entering stacked sensors and with all the advantages they provide= fast read out, video, fill factor, signal /noise etc etc

Canon is in the sensor bussiness only for their SLRs. They have old fabs (180nm and 500nm) for which it would not be economically viable to develope more advanced features.

It is likely that at some point Canon will move to being "fabless" like most sensor manufacturers and maybe then they'll get column parallell ADC.

Stacking by itself does not give any improvements do SNR or fill factor.

 

[Osvaldo Cristo]

People buys Canon cameras more than anyother brand.

If and only if Canon feel they até loosing their customer base to milk they will react. Do not substime Canon: they have technical base and the money to develop the higjest technology image sensors if they decide for that.

No need so far...

Regards.
--
O.Cristo - An Amateur Photographer

Opinions of men are almost as various as their faces - so many men so many minds. B. Franklin

 

[Mikael Risedal]

People buys Canon cameras more than anyother brand.

If and only if Canon feel they até loosing their customer base to milk they will react. Do not substime Canon: they have technical base and the money to develop the higjest technology image sensors if they decide for that.

No need so far...

Regards.
--
O.Cristo - An Amateur Photographer

Opinions of men are almost as various as their faces - so many men so many minds. B. Franklin

no they Canon have not technical base or knowledge or ability to follow for example Sony R&D and investments , why presenting myths?

there are no new investments in new senor lines, Canon is a small sensor player today with 7 % market compared to Sony with over 40% and over 50% in some sensor areas

--
Member of Swedish Photographers Association since 1984
Canon, Hasselblad, Leica, Nikon, Linhoff, Sinar,Zeiss, Phantom 2+
Ernest Hemingway to Irving Penn:?“Your photos are really good. What camera do you use?”?Irving Penn to Ernest Hemingway:?“Your novels are excellent. What typewriter do you use?”

 

[Abe R Ration]

I just started a discussion about where is Canon regarding the latest R&D and sensors , it was locked by the moderator in Canon Canon EOS-1D / 5D / 6D Talk Forum

stacked image sensors will become the heart of products in the future.

where are Canon in this race ?

Canon can not match Sony, Panasonic etc regarding the "old column wise ADC" and low read out noise. Therefore the low DR at base iso from Canon

And now we are entering stacked sensors and with all the advantages they provide= fast read out, video, fill factor, signal /noise etc etc

Canon is in the sensor bussiness only for their SLRs. They have old fabs (180nm and 500nm) for which it would not be economically viable to develope more advanced features.

It is likely that at some point Canon will move to being "fabless" like most sensor manufacturers and maybe then they'll get column parallell ADC.

Stacking by itself does not give any improvements do SNR or fill factor.

 

[PhotoPhart]

I just started a discussion about where is Canon regarding the latest R&D and sensors , it was locked by the moderator in Canon Canon EOS-1D / 5D / 6D Talk Forum

stacked image sensors will become the heart of products in the future.

where are Canon in this race ?

Canon can not match Sony, Panasonic etc regarding the "old column wise ADC" and low read out noise. Therefore the low DR at base iso from Canon

And now we are entering stacked sensors and with all the advantages they provide= fast read out, video, fill factor, signal /noise etc etc

Canon is in the sensor bussiness only for their SLRs. They have old fabs (180nm and 500nm) for which it would not be economically viable to develope more advanced features.

It is likely that at some point Canon will move to being "fabless" like most sensor manufacturers and maybe then they'll get column parallell ADC.

Stacking by itself does not give any improvements do SNR or fill factor.

--
Abe R. Ration - amateur photographer, amateur armchair scientist, amaterur camera buff
http://aberration43mm.wordpress.com/

off course it does

http://www.sony.net/Products/SC-HP/cx_news_archives/img/pdf/vol_68/sideview_vol68.pdf

Nothing is as good evidence as marketing material (and one which doesn't even address the context...)

Anyhow, no it doesn't. BSI already gives 100% FF (minus aperture grid). SNR on the other hand is mostly a function of how much light is collected (and stored as electrons) and in the light starved regions also a function of read noise and none of this doesn't change simply by stacking itself.

Stacking is just a way of moving the pixel electronics to a different piece of silicon. It provides the advantage of being able to use finer manufacturing geometry for the circuits than the light sensitive part. This can have significat benefits for readout speeds, and possibly some for readout noise, but that is not a given simply cause of stacking itself. They may be many other advantages to it, including eventually price - not having to use for example 45nm fab line for the light sensitive layer but being able to use say 90nm is pretty significant advantage. Also since the chip is made from two (or eventually possibly more) layers allows for larger yields (though I don't know what kind of yield losses are at the moment in the stacking process itself). Also one might be able to (at least eventually) get rid of a separate processing chip (BIONZ, DIGIC) lowering total manufacturing costs still.

But for fill factor there is zero advantage contrary to what you claimed.

SNR is a bit more complex, but simply stacking itself does not give inherit SNR advantage.

--
Abe R. Ration - amateur photographer, amateur armchair scientist, amaterur camera buff
http://aberration43mm.wordpress.com/

Yes but you seem to be alluding to the obvious, stacked sensors provide advantages

Isn't Sony working on a stacked that in the same moment can take 2 pictures at different shutter speeds?

 

[Mikael Risedal]

I just started a discussion about where is Canon regarding the latest R&D and sensors , it was locked by the moderator in Canon Canon EOS-1D / 5D / 6D Talk Forum

stacked image sensors will become the heart of products in the future.

where are Canon in this race ?

Canon can not match Sony, Panasonic etc regarding the "old column wise ADC" and low read out noise. Therefore the low DR at base iso from Canon

And now we are entering stacked sensors and with all the advantages they provide= fast read out, video, fill factor, signal /noise etc etc

Canon is in the sensor bussiness only for their SLRs. They have old fabs (180nm and 500nm) for which it would not be economically viable to develope more advanced features.

It is likely that at some point Canon will move to being "fabless" like most sensor manufacturers and maybe then they'll get column parallell ADC.

Stacking by itself does not give any improvements do SNR or fill factor.

--
Abe R. Ration - amateur photographer, amateur armchair scientist, amaterur camera buff
http://aberration43mm.wordpress.com/

off course it does

http://www.sony.net/Products/SC-HP/cx_news_archives/img/pdf/vol_68/sideview_vol68.pdf

Nothing is as good evidence as marketing material (and one which doesn't even address the context...)

Anyhow, no it doesn't. BSI already gives 100% FF (minus aperture grid). SNR on the other hand is mostly a function of how much light is collected (and stored as electrons) and in the light starved regions also a function of read noise and none of this doesn't change simply by stacking itself.

Stacking is just a way of moving the pixel electronics to a different piece of silicon. It provides the advantage of being able to use finer manufacturing geometry for the circuits than the light sensitive part. This can have significat benefits for readout speeds, and possibly some for readout noise, but that is not a given simply cause of stacking itself. They may be many other advantages to it, including eventually price - not having to use for example 45nm fab line for the light sensitive layer but being able to use say 90nm is pretty significant advantage. Also since the chip is made from two (or eventually possibly more) layers allows for larger yields (though I don't know what kind of yield losses are at the moment in the stacking process itself). Also one might be able to (at least eventually) get rid of a separate processing chip (BIONZ, DIGIC) lowering total manufacturing costs still.

But for fill factor there is zero advantage contrary to what you claimed.

SNR is a bit more complex, but simply stacking itself does not give inherit SNR advantage.

--
Abe R. Ration - amateur photographer, amateur armchair scientist, amaterur camera buff
http://aberration43mm.wordpress.com/

nope it is not BSI CCD we are discussing, there are no 100%FF in a cmos, therefore micro lenses, read about BSI, and keep apart BSI and stacked sensors

--
Member of Swedish Photographers Association since 1984
Canon, Hasselblad, Leica, Nikon, Linhoff, Sinar,Zeiss, Phantom 2+
Ernest Hemingway to Irving Penn:?“Your photos are really good. What camera do you use?”?Irving Penn to Ernest Hemingway:?“Your novels are excellent. What typewriter do you use?”

 

[rrccad]

People buys Canon cameras more than anyother brand.

If and only if Canon feel they até loosing their customer base to milk they will react. Do not substime Canon: they have technical base and the money to develop the higjest technology image sensors if they decide for that.

No need so far...

Regards.
--
O.Cristo - An Amateur Photographer

Opinions of men are almost as various as their faces - so many men so many minds. B. Franklin

no they Canon have not technical base or knowledge or ability to follow for example Sony R&D and investments , why presenting myths?

there are no new investments in new senor lines

You don't know that. Canon atyically only announces plant development investments. If canon. Announced every time they replaced a machine in a plant they'd never shut up.

Since canon isn't looking at increasing their sensor per month total, anything is possible to what they decide to do internally.

Stop making stuff up to support your very clear agenda.

 

[Abe R Ration]

nope it is not BSI CCD we are discussing, there are no 100%FF in a cmos

You have no idea what you talk about, you know that?

BSI is 100% (minus aperture grid). That's the whole point of it.

(c) Chipworks

Try to think what that "Si substrate" is and what it's function is.

Also, why do you think the photodiode-portion of BSI and stacked BSI would be different regarding fill factor?

, therefore micro lenses,

Microlenses for BSI are not cause of fill factor, but to improve response to non-perpendicular light and to reduce crosstalk.

read about BSI, and keep apart BSI and stacked sensors

Why not follow your own advice?

I know very well how BSI works and CMOS image sensors work, thank you very much.

--
Abe R. Ration - amateur photographer, amateur armchair scientist, amaterur camera buff
http://aberration43mm.wordpress.com/

 

[Abe R Ration]

Yes but you seem to be alluding to the obvious, stacked sensors provide advantages

Isn't Sony working on a stacked that in the same moment can take 2 pictures at different shutter speeds?

It doesn't need a stacked chip to be able to do that. It just gives flexibility for design and pricing.

 

[The Davinator]

People buys Canon cameras more than anyother brand.

If and only if Canon feel they até loosing their customer base to milk they will react. Do not substime Canon: they have technical base and the money to develop the higjest technology image sensors if they decide for that.

No need so far...

Regards.
--
O.Cristo - An Amateur Photographer

Opinions of men are almost as various as their faces - so many men so many minds. B. Franklin

You are right....and more people use iPhones than Canon....so Canon users should be switching over to iPhones. Or, your post makes no sense. In other words, their sensors can be the lowest quality because it doesnt matter...they are Canon.

 

[nofumble]

A FF sensor die is already huge. With BSI, they have plenty of real estate for logic and cache memory, why need expensive die stacking?

Die stacking is no big deal. It can be done with metal bumps, wire bonds. You already have one in your smartphone.

TSV requires a lot of investment, but only needed for multi-level stacking like memory.

You will see a lot of stacking in small image sensor. Big sensor..maybe never.

Don't forget that they need to cool the die that is stacked on top too.

 

[rrccad]

A FF sensor die is already huge. With BSI, they have plenty of real estate for logic and cache memory, why need expensive die stacking?

Die stacking is no big deal. It can be done with metal bumps, wire bonds. You already have one in your smartphone.

Canon's DiGiC was stacked for a while.

 

[Mikael Risedal]

People buys Canon cameras more than anyother brand.

If and only if Canon feel they até loosing their customer base to milk they will react. Do not substime Canon: they have technical base and the money to develop the higjest technology image sensors if they decide for that.

No need so far...

Regards.
--
O.Cristo - An Amateur Photographer

Opinions of men are almost as various as their faces - so many men so many minds. B. Franklin

no they Canon have not technical base or knowledge or ability to follow for example Sony R&D and investments , why presenting myths?

there are no new investments in new senor lines

You don't know that. Canon atyically only announces plant development investments. If canon. Announced every time they replaced a machine in a plant they'd never shut up.

Since canon isn't looking at increasing their sensor per month total, anything is possible to what they decide to do internally.

Stop making stuff up to support your very clear agenda.

Canon can not catch up with columnwise ADC today , due old sensor lines and geometry , where can I find that they have a new sensor plant?

More inportant, where can I find that they are in the stacked sensors race?

--
Member of Swedish Photographers Association since 1984
Canon, Hasselblad, Leica, Nikon, Linhoff, Sinar,Zeiss, Phantom 2+
Ernest Hemingway to Irving Penn:?“Your photos are really good. What camera do you use?”?Irving Penn to Ernest Hemingway:?“Your novels are excellent. What typewriter do you use?”

 

[Mikael Risedal]

A FF sensor die is already huge. With BSI, they have plenty of real estate for logic and cache memory, why need expensive die stacking?

Die stacking is no big deal. It can be done with metal bumps, wire bonds. You already have one in your smartphone.

TSV requires a lot of investment, but only needed for multi-level stacking like memory.

You will see a lot of stacking in small image sensor. Big sensor..maybe never.

Don't forget that they need to cool the die that is stacked on top too.

what a lot of unimportant data regarding next step= stacked sensors

--
Member of Swedish Photographers Association since 1984
Canon, Hasselblad, Leica, Nikon, Linhoff, Sinar,Zeiss, Phantom 2+
Ernest Hemingway to Irving Penn:?“Your photos are really good. What camera do you use?”?Irving Penn to Ernest Hemingway:?“Your novels are excellent. What typewriter do you use?”

 

[Mikael Risedal]

A FF sensor die is already huge. With BSI, they have plenty of real estate for logic and cache memory, why need expensive die stacking?

Die stacking is no big deal. It can be done with metal bumps, wire bonds. You already have one in your smartphone.

Canon's DiGiC was stacked for a while.

Canon is stacked in house

 

[Mikael Risedal]

nope it is not BSI CCD we are discussing, there are no 100%FF in a cmos

You have no idea what you talk about, you know that?

BSI is 100% (minus aperture grid). That's the whole point of it.

(c) Chipworks

Try to think what that "Si substrate" is and what it's function is.

Also, why do you think the photodiode-portion of BSI and stacked BSI would be different regarding fill factor?

, therefore micro lenses,

Microlenses for BSI are not cause of fill factor, but to improve response to non-perpendicular light and to reduce crosstalk.

read about BSI, and keep apart BSI and stacked sensors

Why not follow your own advice?

I know very well how BSI works and CMOS image sensors work, thank you very much.

--
Abe R. Ration - amateur photographer, amateur armchair scientist, amaterur camera buff
http://aberration43mm.wordpress.com/

sorry you can not keep apart what we are discussing

BSI has the light collecting surface higher up in the surface plane , no large walls that prevent incident light like in FSI and this means that the surface are better photons collector especially towards the sides and the boundary rays

BSI is not better in the center than regular FSI , keep apart what we are discussing , FSI, BSI and stacked sensors

Member of Swedish Photographers Association since 1984
Canon, Hasselblad, Leica, Nikon, Linhoff, Sinar,Zeiss, Phantom 2+
Ernest Hemingway to Irving Penn:?“Your photos are really good. What camera do you use?”?Irving Penn to Ernest Hemingway:?“Your novels are excellent. What typewriter do you use?”