A7RII posterization?

[Iliah Borg]

Is this posterization something you would expect from a D810 file shot at the same exposure,

Never saw raw data from D810 being posterized.

pushed the same way

There was no push, zero.

, and subjected to the same color management issues?

Yes, that can cause posterization on any camera (actually, it is not posterization, it is clipping red channel values to zero).

So is what Lloyd is reporting as an issue with the A7RII purely a color management issue?

No, it is a mix of three things, exposure, raw format, and colour management; with colour management adding the most to the perceived damage.

 

[JamesJimmy]

Hard to tell without seeing the RAW file.

When I looked at the image, the water appeared to be out of focus because the lens was set to a large aperture and the focus was set on the person who came out looking very sharp. I don't believe the water is posterized. If I zoom into the image, I see that the JPEG compression was too strong to identify if there are any problems with the image. You can see large macroblocks in the area of the water while the person is seen in fine detail. I have a feeling that you are actually seeing the regularly waves in the lake with consistent reflections of the sky filtered through the bokeh of the lens causing the appearance of posterization.

 

[billzilla2000]

Is this posterization something you would expect from a D810 file shot at the same exposure,

Never saw raw data from D810 being posterized.

pushed the same way

There was no push, zero.

, and subjected to the same color management issues?

Yes, that can cause posterization on any camera (actually, it is not posterization, it is clipping red channel values to zero).

 

[Roses]

Hard to tell without seeing the RAW file.

When I looked at the image, the water appeared to be out of focus because the lens was set to a large aperture and the focus was set on the person who came out looking very sharp. I don't believe the water is posterized. If I zoom into the image, I see that the JPEG compression was too strong to identify if there are any problems with the image. You can see large macroblocks in the area of the water while the person is seen in fine detail. I have a feeling that you are actually seeing the regularly waves in the lake with consistent reflections of the sky filtered through the bokeh of the lens causing the appearance of posterization.

--
My AX-100 gallery: http://gg.gg/ax100

I agree with you.

If this was such a widespread problem, shouldn't we be seeing it everywhere? And have it be easily reproduced?

My guess is some people just love to stir up controversy with deliberately bad photos to drive traffic to their site.

--
http://www.lightfinity.net

 

[mdcromer]

Hard to tell without seeing the RAW file.

When I looked at the image, the water appeared to be out of focus because the lens was set to a large aperture and the focus was set on the person who came out looking very sharp. I don't believe the water is posterized. If I zoom into the image, I see that the JPEG compression was too strong to identify if there are any problems with the image. You can see large macroblocks in the area of the water while the person is seen in fine detail. I have a feeling that you are actually seeing the regularly waves in the lake with consistent reflections of the sky filtered through the bokeh of the lens causing the appearance of posterization.

--
My AX-100 gallery: http://gg.gg/ax100

I agree with you.

If this was such a widespread problem, shouldn't we be seeing it everywhere? And have it be easily reproduced?

My guess is some people just love to stir up controversy to drive traffic to their site.

--
http://www.lightfinity.net

I don't attribute this to an attempt to be controversial. I think Lloyd just saw something really wretched and jumped the gun on blaming the camera.

 

[billzilla2000]

I lost my faith in what Lloyd writes after he complained about the AF stopped working on a Leica Q and then found out it was his user error that was causing the problem since he didn't properly read the manual and it could have been easily fixed....and there seems to always be something wrong with every lens he tests nowadays....if you look hard enough for tiny insignificant imperfections in anything...you will find them.

He lost my 'faith' long before that.

This whole thread is an exercise in hysteria, anyway. Brought to you by the same select few forum regulars who always expect, announce and aggressively defend/advocate for the very worst news about the A7 series.

 

[Roses]

Hard to tell without seeing the RAW file.

When I looked at the image, the water appeared to be out of focus because the lens was set to a large aperture and the focus was set on the person who came out looking very sharp. I don't believe the water is posterized. If I zoom into the image, I see that the JPEG compression was too strong to identify if there are any problems with the image. You can see large macroblocks in the area of the water while the person is seen in fine detail. I have a feeling that you are actually seeing the regularly waves in the lake with consistent reflections of the sky filtered through the bokeh of the lens causing the appearance of posterization.

--
My AX-100 gallery: http://gg.gg/ax100

I agree with you.

If this was such a widespread problem, shouldn't we be seeing it everywhere? And have it be easily reproduced?

My guess is some people just love to stir up controversy to drive traffic to their site.

--
http://www.lightfinity.net

I don't attribute this to an attempt to be controversial. I think Lloyd just saw something really wretched and jumped the gun on blaming the camera.

I think it is. I bet he has other photos from the same a7RII of that same area that don't look like crap, and didn't post them.

Here's one from us. Blue skies. Blue lake. Ripples.

We don't like to post bad photos, because they make us look bad. Not the camera.

--
http://www.lightfinity.net

 

[Iliah Borg]

Is this posterization something you would expect from a D810 file shot at the same exposure,

Never saw raw data from D810 being posterized.

pushed the same way

There was no push, zero.

, and subjected to the same color management issues?

Yes, that can cause posterization on any camera (actually, it is not posterization, it is clipping red channel values to zero).

Have you ever tested or used an A7 series camera, yourself?

I do not test cameras, I do not play with cameras, I use cameras to shoot and I also shoot to hack raw formats, or to calculate colour transforms, whatever is needed to support those cameras in LibRaw, RawDigger, or FastRawViewer. A7, yes, used several of those. So did Alex Tutubalin. He got A7RM2 yesterday, mine is on the way.

I wonder how relevant your question is to the discussion we are having in this thread.

 

[Amin Sabet]

Is this posterization something you would expect from a D810 file shot at the same exposure,

Never saw raw data from D810 being posterized.

pushed the same way

There was no push, zero.

, and subjected to the same color management issues?

Yes, that can cause posterization on any camera (actually, it is not posterization, it is clipping red channel values to zero).

So is what Lloyd is reporting as an issue with the A7RII purely a color management issue?

No, it is a mix of three things, exposure, raw format, and colour management; with colour management adding the most to the perceived damage.

 

[Iliah Borg]

Is this posterization something you would expect from a D810 file shot at the same exposure,

Never saw raw data from D810 being posterized.

pushed the same way

There was no push, zero.

, and subjected to the same color management issues?

Yes, that can cause posterization on any camera (actually, it is not posterization, it is clipping red channel values to zero).

So is what Lloyd is reporting as an issue with the A7RII purely a color management issue?

No, it is a mix of three things, exposure, raw format, and colour management; with colour management adding the most to the perceived damage.

Thanks, Iliah. Very helpful!

You are welcome. What I do is I watch not just overall exposure, but per channel exposure. If in doubt, bracket. If high contrast daylight scene, I use a CC40M magenta filter, that helps to bring blue and red channels in balance with green channel.

With a microscope invented, our view of what clean water is changed dramatically. Same with modern low noise high resolution cameras and sharp lenses - we can now see quite a lot of imperfections we missed before. I can hardly see it as something unexpected. Add a little noise, and that clipping is gone.

 

[stevo23]

Potential posterization issue with A7RII documented here: http://diglloyd.com/blog/2015/20150819_1136-SonyA7R_II-posterization-BlueLake.html

Lloyd shared the RAW with a reputable getdpi forum member and professional photographer, and he confirmed the issue, at least with this particular exposure, in this thread: http://www.getdpi.com/forum/sony/55836-seeing-any-posterization-issues-a7r-ll.html

Where in the thread? Which member?

Was a thread about this already, but it seems to have been lost. Perhaps we can all discuss this like adults, without the usual accusations of fanboy, troll, shill, willfully blind to any criticism of one's chosen brand, etc.

I would hate to think dpreview is attempting to quash discussion of a potential problem with a new camera. This is, after all, how products improve.

Yes, Didiboyd managed to create one photo, but one photo a problem doesn't make. It needs to be characterized properly before fanning the flames.

 

[Amin Sabet]

Is this posterization something you would expect from a D810 file shot at the same exposure,

Never saw raw data from D810 being posterized.

pushed the same way

There was no push, zero.

, and subjected to the same color management issues?

Yes, that can cause posterization on any camera (actually, it is not posterization, it is clipping red channel values to zero).

So is what Lloyd is reporting as an issue with the A7RII purely a color management issue?

No, it is a mix of three things, exposure, raw format, and colour management; with colour management adding the most to the perceived damage.

Thanks, Iliah. Very helpful!

You are welcome. What I do is I watch not just overall exposure, but per channel exposure. If in doubt, bracket. If high contrast daylight scene, I use a CC40M magenta filter, that helps to bring blue and red channels in balance with green channel.

With a microscope invented, our view of what clean water is changed dramatically. Same with modern low noise high resolution cameras and sharp lenses - we can now see quite a lot of imperfections we missed before. I can hardly see it as something unexpected. Add a little noise, and that clipping is gone.

 

[billzilla2000]

Is this posterization something you would expect from a D810 file shot at the same exposure,

Never saw raw data from D810 being posterized.

pushed the same way

There was no push, zero.

, and subjected to the same color management issues?

Yes, that can cause posterization on any camera (actually, it is not posterization, it is clipping red channel values to zero).

Have you ever tested or used an A7 series camera, yourself?

I do not test cameras, I do not play with cameras, I use cameras to shoot and I also shoot to hack raw formats, or to calculate colour transforms, whatever is needed to support those cameras in LibRaw, RawDigger, or FastRawViewer. A7, yes, used several of those. So did Alex Tutubalin. He got A7RM2 yesterday, mine is on the way.

I wonder how relevant your question is to the discussion we are having in this thread.

 

[billzilla2000]

Hard to tell without seeing the RAW file.

When I looked at the image, the water appeared to be out of focus because the lens was set to a large aperture and the focus was set on the person who came out looking very sharp. I don't believe the water is posterized. If I zoom into the image, I see that the JPEG compression was too strong to identify if there are any problems with the image. You can see large macroblocks in the area of the water while the person is seen in fine detail. I have a feeling that you are actually seeing the regularly waves in the lake with consistent reflections of the sky filtered through the bokeh of the lens causing the appearance of posterization.

 

[Horshack]

but also a lot of damage is done in conversion from ProPhoto RGB to output space.

Iliah, can you describe how this could be avoided?

 

[Iliah Borg]

Is this posterization something you would expect from a D810 file shot at the same exposure,

Never saw raw data from D810 being posterized.

pushed the same way

There was no push, zero.

, and subjected to the same color management issues?

Yes, that can cause posterization on any camera (actually, it is not posterization, it is clipping red channel values to zero).

Have you ever tested or used an A7 series camera, yourself?

I do not test cameras, I do not play with cameras, I use cameras to shoot and I also shoot to hack raw formats, or to calculate colour transforms, whatever is needed to support those cameras in LibRaw, RawDigger, or FastRawViewer. A7, yes, used several of those. So did Alex Tutubalin. He got A7RM2 yesterday, mine is on the way.

I wonder how relevant your question is to the discussion we are having in this thread.

You don't find your own hands-on experience with the A7 cameras relevant?

Relevant to the shot LLoyd is discussing? In what way?

Great to hear you've purchased one. I'm sure it will assist in development of your commercial products.

LibRaw is free, and it is our main concern, believe it or not

For software development I do not need a camera which Alex already has. One is enough; but even before he got it we had all we needed to support the camera. You draw a blank, once again.

 

[Iliah Borg]

but also a lot of damage is done in conversion from ProPhoto RGB to output space.

Iliah, can you describe how this could be avoided?

By using soft-proofing in Photoshop when doing the conversion.

 

[Horshack]

but also a lot of damage is done in conversion from ProPhoto RGB to output space.

Iliah, can you describe how this could be avoided?

By using soft-proofing in Photoshop when doing the conversion.

Does this imply the user would be applying some type of correction during the process based on what he sees during the soft-proofing? Which type of correction would that be to eliminate posterization, outside of maybe adding some noise?

 

[billzilla2000]

Is this posterization something you would expect from a D810 file shot at the same exposure,

Never saw raw data from D810 being posterized.

pushed the same way

There was no push, zero.

, and subjected to the same color management issues?

Yes, that can cause posterization on any camera (actually, it is not posterization, it is clipping red channel values to zero).

Have you ever tested or used an A7 series camera, yourself?

I do not test cameras, I do not play with cameras, I use cameras to shoot and I also shoot to hack raw formats, or to calculate colour transforms, whatever is needed to support those cameras in LibRaw, RawDigger, or FastRawViewer. A7, yes, used several of those. So did Alex Tutubalin. He got A7RM2 yesterday, mine is on the way.

I wonder how relevant your question is to the discussion we are having in this thread.

You don't find your own hands-on experience with the A7 cameras relevant?

Relevant to the shot LLoyd is discussing? In what way?

You're not giving your expert opinion on posterization?

Great to hear you've purchased one. I'm sure it will assist in development of your commercial products.

LibRaw is free, and it is our main concern, believe it or not

For software development I do not need a camera which Alex already has. One is enough; but even before he got it we had all we needed to support the camera. You draw a blank, once again.

 

[Alpha Photo]

Have courage to open that box....