What's wrong with the GH4?

[ijm5012]

I am not very happy using my GH4 kit. If there would be a better choice I may sell my Panasonic gear. Unfortunately there are not, so I must live with my unperfect gear.

GH4 is an odd mix of high tech and low tech. It has almost all things right but then there are very annoying and stupid or lazy engineering too. There are also severe low quality issues with Pana lenses.

Whats wrong in GH4:

-cant show exposure values during shooting, would be nice to know what the camera is doing.

Agreed. This certainly seems like something that can be addressed in a firmware update though. This doesn't mean that Panasonic will do it, but it doesn't seem like a hardware limitation of the camera.

-cant adjust aperture steplessly in video, very annoying, jumpy exposure

This is a lens issue, not a camera issue. The lens controls how the aperture is adjusted, not the camera.

-cant review photos without taking hand out of objective

This has never bothered me once. In fact, I like having the image review button on the left side of the camera, as it frees up a button on the right side of the camera that can be programed to do something useful when shooting images/video.

-AF in video looses subject completely too often

True for 4k, though definitely not so for 1080p.

-cant use AF/AE lock properly, it is crippled

You must be using the camera wrong. My AE/AF button works exactly how I want it to, where I can lock both the focus and exposure, one or the other, and have the button work as AF-on when shooting sports.

-cant use even AFS or AF prefocus with higher framerates

Again, you must be using the camera wrong. Set the camera to the highest frame rate (12 FPS), set your focus dial to AFS, focus on your subject/area using focus peaking and then lock focus using AF-Lock, then hold the shutter down.

-Very many functions cannot assign to function buttons- why 8 FN if you cant find use for them. Cant even adjust image settings (contrast etc) without digging menu deep. I have ended up using the same settings almost all the time.

Customizable quick menu button.

-soft EVF ocular. Very high risk of scratching it when cleaning. So cant clean it.

You should never try cleaning optical glass of any kind without a cleaning solution. For dust, I either use a lens pen or rocket blaster. for smudges (which I haven't gotten many of), I use a MF cloth and a cleaning solution. Haven't scratched my EVF yet.

-slippery handgrip when shooting sweaty hands

I haven't experienced this. Maybe your sweat contains some oils that make holding on to things more difficult.

These are little things but gives me bad mood many times when I go shooting. The most annoying thing is 14-140mm II jittering in video. Again high tech/low tech - Very, very good video quality with jittering image. Happy-unhappy.

This has nothing to do with the GH4 at all.

I would like to sell my GH3 but after 1.5 years of use it is so broken and in bad condition that I cant sell it. Repairs will probably cost more than I could get from it so I save it as a backup camera for me.

Again, has nothing to do with the GH4, though you must be brutal to your cameras in order to have a GH3 in the condition you describe it. I've rarely seen threads mentioning build quality issues of the GH3 or GH4, meanwhile over in Olympus world how many lost eye cups, delaminating rubber grip, burned EVF optics, and dial/button fallen off threads have you seen? Far more than I've ever seen discussing build quality issues/concerns with Panasonic cameras.

 

[liviutza]

Unlike many here, I believe the E-M1 and GH4 are overkill for most non-professional uses. I use a E-M10 and a Canon 6D - I am willing to cope with the size of the latter to get 4 times more sensor surface. But in most circumstances I use my M43 camera with small lenses in daily shooting and I have the 100-300 mm for field trips. IQ is satisfactory and so is the body. But If I am to spend over 2,000 Euro (in my market) for a camera I do expect the best IQ for the money. And in this respect M43 cameras and glass are overly expensive.

The GH4 is by far the most professional-geared camera in m43 - it needs and allows for a lot of extra gear to make use of it. But for an enthusiast with a budget to manage (and please take this as my option only) I can see two paths:

- balance weight and IQ with the budget (E-M10, G6, E-M5)

- cope with the weight and go full frame (Sony, Canon, Nikon)

 

[baxters]

I've seen a lot of people selling slightly used GH4's on ebay and I don't understand why.

Those sellers are probably M43 owners who were upgrading from the smaller Olympus and Panasonic bodies like the GF series and the PEN's. They could not deal with the huge size of the GH4, so they dumped it.

It's a good camera, if you like fat cameras.

 

[Vesku]

I am not very happy using my GH4 kit. If there would be a better choice I may sell my Panasonic gear. Unfortunately there are not, so I must live with my unperfect gear.

GH4 is an odd mix of high tech and low tech. It has almost all things right but then there are very annoying and stupid or lazy engineering too. There are also severe low quality issues with Pana lenses.

Whats wrong in GH4:

-cant show exposure values during shooting, would be nice to know what the camera is doing.

Agreed. This certainly seems like something that can be addressed in a firmware update though. This doesn't mean that Panasonic will do it, but it doesn't seem like a hardware limitation of the camera.

-cant adjust aperture steplessly in video, very annoying, jumpy exposure

This is a lens issue, not a camera issue. The lens controls how the aperture is adjusted, not the camera.

This is a major design fault of all Panasonic m4/3 gear including GH4 and lenses.

-cant review photos without taking hand out of objective

This has never bothered me once. In fact, I like having the image review button on the left side of the camera, as it frees up a button on the right side of the camera that can be programed to do something useful when shooting images/video.

If I just want to check image when watching at viewfinder I loose the subject and situation when changing hands especially with a tele lens.

-AF in video looses subject completely too often

True for 4k, though definitely not so for 1080p.

GH4 and 14-140mm II looses often AF completely when zooming even in 1080/60P. It may wonder many second before getting back to focus. Sometimes it never finds focus again. The I must stop and start again.

-cant use AF/AE lock properly, it is crippled

You must be using the camera wrong. My AE/AF button works exactly how I want it to, where I can lock both the focus and exposure, one or the other, and have the button work as AF-on when shooting sports.

You cant release locking if you want to AF or AE again during a clip like in other cameras.

-cant use even AFS or AF prefocus with higher framerates

Again, you must be using the camera wrong. Set the camera to the highest frame rate (12 FPS??)=96fps, set your focus dial to AFS, focus on your subject/area using focus peaking and then lock focus using AF-Lock, then hold the shutter down.

GH4 cant use AFS with 96fps. Focus peaking is not in use with AFS. 96fps works only if the lever is in MF position. Also focus lever must be in M if I want to use slowest fps like 2 or 4. Why cant I just refocus with half shutter, it would be much faster. Exposure must be in M too. Why cant the camera just lock everything automatically when pressing shutter during 96fps. Now I must do too many adjustments before the GH4 can start shooting a slow motion.

-Very many functions cannot assign to function buttons- why 8 FN if you cant find use for them. Cant even adjust image settings (contrast etc) without digging menu deep. I have ended up using the same settings almost all the time.

Customizable quick menu button.

I loose the very good normal quick menu and still I must use several clicks for a wanted function.

-soft EVF ocular. Very high risk of scratching it when cleaning. So cant clean it.

You should never try cleaning optical glass of any kind without a cleaning solution. For dust, I either use a lens pen or rocket blaster. for smudges (which I haven't gotten many of), I use a MF cloth and a cleaning solution. Haven't scratched my EVF yet.

Some people has reported scratched EVF. My GH3 has it too.

-slippery handgrip when shooting sweaty hands

I haven't experienced this. Maybe your sweat contains some oils that make holding on to things more difficult.

Sweat always contains oil or grease.

These are little things but gives me bad mood many times when I go shooting. The most annoying thing is 14-140mm II jittering in video. Again high tech/low tech - Very, very good video quality with jittering image. Happy-unhappy.

This has nothing to do with the GH4 at all.

It affects my opinion of my GH4 kit.

I would like to sell my GH3 but after 1.5 years of use it is so broken and in bad condition that I cant sell it. Repairs will probably cost more than I could get from it so I save it as a backup camera for me.

Again, has nothing to do with the GH4, though you must be brutal to your cameras in order to have a GH3 in the condition you describe it. I've rarely seen threads mentioning build quality issues of the GH3 or GH4, meanwhile over in Olympus world how many lost eye cups, delaminating rubber grip, burned EVF optics, and dial/button fallen off threads have you seen? Far more than I've ever seen discussing build quality issues/concerns with Panasonic cameras.

If my GH3 has so bad quality, it affects my opinion of my GH4. Who knows if it will brake just after warranty time just like my other Panasonic gear. I have never dropped my gear and I never let anyone else use my cameras. How can I use wheels so rude that they roll empty now? Is it my fault if the LCD is loose and drops of some day? I have been gentle with it. Even mode dial is loose. How can you misuse it?

 

[ijm5012]

Vesku,

You seem to be unhappy with all things m43 (OIS issues with the lenses, functionality of the cameras). Don't you think your time would be better served creating For Sale threads for all of your micro 4/3's gear, selling it, purchasing something that would make you happy, and going out and using it, rather than spending all of your time posting video clips of micro-jitter in the 14-140 II?

Certainly you can't be happy with all of these issues you've described, so why not rid yourself of the burden that is micro 4/3's, and move on to something that will make you happy? That's why most of us do this to begin with, because its a hobby that we enjoy.

 

[Fredrik Glckner]

-cant show exposure values during shooting, would be nice to know what the camera is doing.

Agreed. This certainly seems like something that can be addressed in a firmware update though. This doesn't mean that Panasonic will do it, but it doesn't seem like a hardware limitation of the camera.

This is actually available, but only if you use the Wifi interface! When recording video through the Wifi app, you get to see the aperture and shutter parameters. Which is quite useful.

-AF in video looses subject completely too often

True for 4k, though definitely not so for 1080p.

Yes, the GH4 has gotten very good at keeping the focus during video recording. For 1080p, this is hardly an issue, in my opinion.

Micro 4/3rds Photography

m43photo.blogspot.com

 

[Fredrik Glckner]

Certainly you can't be happy with all of these issues you've described, so why not rid yourself of the burden that is micro 4/3's, and move on to something that will make you happy? That's why most of us do this to begin with, because its a hobby that we enjoy.

I have a colleague who loves to complain and bicker. People have different ways of achieving happiness.

 

[Vesku]

Vesku,

You seem to be unhappy with all things m43 (OIS issues with the lenses, functionality of the cameras). Don't you think your time would be better served creating For Sale threads for all of your micro 4/3's gear, selling it, purchasing something that would make you happy, and going out and using it, rather than spending all of your time posting video clips of micro-jitter in the 14-140 II?

Certainly you can't be happy with all of these issues you've described, so why not rid yourself of the burden that is micro 4/3's, and move on to something that will make you happy? That's why most of us do this to begin with, because its a hobby that we enjoy.

My goal is to get good photos and videos. I have spend a lots of money for it. If I change camp i must spend much more and the results are probably not better. Achieving my goal with Panasonic is not flawless. Maybe I have had a lots of bad luck with my faulty working and broking gears but I do not like stupid design and engineering. As I said Panasonic has got almost everything right but little silly things annoys me. Like buying a brand new expensive car with a vibrating steering wheel and rattling exhaust pipe or gas pedal with only 3 possible speeding position.

 

[LMNCT]

Having just read down through the long list of love/hate points regarding the GH4, I will tell you why I own one. Ergonomics. The camera is very natural in my hands. I can make adjustments without removing my eye from the EVF. The Menu. Panasonic started out with an excellent menu system and they have carried it through the entire line with simplified and shortened versions for the P&S group. I like being able to find things rapidly and without menu diving. As far as Video goes, I would much prefer to purchase a full video camera if that were my interest. The GH4 produces excellent video, but for me, it is a Still camera. The images are clear, sharp and everything that I want for very large prints. I do not think that it is overpriced, but I do think that it is underrated by many who feel that it just does not Look like their image of a Pro Body. If a camera does a good job, then it is fine with me...appearance and nostalgia do not create images.

So, short answer...who knows why people sell equipment. I suspect that it may be encouraged by idiotic statements made on forums like this and not anything substantial.

 

[TN Args]

Unlike many here, I believe the E-M1 and GH4 are overkill for most non-professional uses. I use a E-M10 and a Canon 6D - I am willing to cope with the size of the latter to get 4 times more sensor surface. But in most circumstances I use my M43 camera with small lenses in daily shooting and I have the 100-300 mm for field trips. IQ is satisfactory and so is the body. But If I am to spend over 2,000 Euro (in my market) for a camera I do expect the best IQ for the money. And in this respect M43 cameras and glass are overly expensive.

The GH4 is by far the most professional-geared camera in m43 - it needs and allows for a lot of extra gear to make use of it. But for an enthusiast with a budget to manage (and please take this as my option only) I can see two paths:

- balance weight and IQ with the budget (E-M10, G6, E-M5)

- cope with the weight and go full frame (Sony, Canon, Nikon)

You are very sensible, well-written. Except for the last line! If E-M1 is overkill for non-pros, then full frame must be double! :-D

 

[liviutza]

I am not entirely sure about it - in my view the future of FF is partly moving to cheaper products that will allow a easier path to better IQ; with some limitations, of course, but still... I use the 6D in ways that I believe are quite unsophisticated and available to most amateurs and I can see some people going for a cheaper, lower-specced FF body (with or without a mirror) if they were promised 'ultimate' IQ. I believe professional gear is not defined by sensor size anymore and this will become more visible as larger sensors become more available.

 

[tgutgu]

Easy to answer:

For a mirrorless to fat

Not first class view finder

no IBIS (in body stabilization)

too video-centric

 

[BushmanOrig]

Interesting observations. I think once you own a top end M43 for 12 months you will have a different view....

I recently did the APC (mostly Canon) tour and bought them all on a one t one basis. Bought 2nd hand tried it for 2 or 3 months and sold again.... (550D, 600D, 650D, 700D, 30D, 40D, 60D, 7D) None of them came close to my E-M1 in all respects....

I tried a Nikon D7100 six months back and I thought its IQ were much better than the above Canon's. I never tried other Nikons....

Best

Siegfried

 

[Davidwa]

I've seen a lot of people selling slightly used GH4's on ebay and I don't understand

Have just checked e-bay for used GH4's and EM1's.

Currently for sale in E-Bay Europe 10 x GH4's and 6 EM1's.

Ok 4 more used GH4's for sale but for the whole of Europe it's hardly significant.

 

[Jorginho]

I've been in the Canon camp for quite some time and I'm thinking of switching over the the Panasonic GH4.

I've seen a lot of people selling slightly used GH4's on ebay and I don't understand why.

Is there something wrong with the GH4 that all of these people realized after they purchased it?
A lot less people sell used Canon flagship models on ebay so I'm just trying to figure it out before I purchase a GH4.

Maybe its a workflow issue, maybe its a lens issue, maybe low light, maybe missing features.

Anyone got any personal experience?

Ever sell one yourself and why?

Thanks!

There is only one thing the D800E does better. An important one for landscaping: the IQ is better. and that, to my mind, is it. Nothing final: next week I will do PP wiht the files and have more experience with the D800E but that is how it is to me right now.

Anything else you can think of, including the OVF vs EVF I give it to the GH4. As a stills cam for someone who does long hikes through nature, GH4 is the cam to beat. Also with 4K video, but I think it is a great stills cam and the 12/35 and 35/100 f2.8 are so good an so small that to my mind nothing can compare to that. Now that I have used D800e for a couple of days intensively I appreciate GH4 much more than I already did.

I think it is a very good stills camera and an excellent video cam. Everything works great, a intuitive menusystem, great EVF, a weathersealed swiveling screen, excellent AF (d800E routinely refushed to focus on clouds...Gh4 not). Good AF-C btw with the right lenses.

I think it is one of the best if not the best cam out there for stills to when you take everything into account. But that of course is veyr personal...

Why others supposedly sell them so much...I don't know and I don't mind.

 

[Jorginho]

I've seen a lot of people selling slightly used GH4's on ebay and I don't understand why.

Those sellers are probably M43 owners who were upgrading from the smaller Olympus and Panasonic bodies like the GF series and the PEN's. They could not deal with the huge size of the GH4, so they dumped it.

It's a good camera, if you like fat cameras.

Use a D800e for a couple oif days alongside it. I am doing so right now. The Gh4 is featherweight, so let's say it is a very subjective...

 

[Promit]

I appreciate your feedback! The overall consensus seems to be that the main weakness is still images. Which is not too much of an issue to me since I mainly do video. Also I generally use manual focus so GH4's autofocus system isn't that big of a deal to me either.

I was just really trying to figure out why anyone would sell the highly praised GH4 but I was just seeing it from a videographers perspective. I didn't even think about photographers wanting to buy it.

Douglas36 wrote:

Imho many people bough GH4 for it's 4k mode. Since then, Sony A7s and Samsung NX1 has surprased its capabilities in this area. So maybe those owners are selling.

In what way have they surpassed the GH4 in 4K mode? In the tests I've seen they are very close in image quality. NX1 slightly sharper, more contrasty out of the box (more "pop", less cinematic if you want) and worse than the GH4 in high ISO. A7s of course superior in high ISO (compared to almost any camera out there). But no internal 4K and very expensive with external recorder and high-end glass.

Well, okay. So let's stop for a moment and talk about both of these sentiments.

As a videographer's tool, the GH4 is in a slightly weird place. It's not a small chip camcorder, but it's not big enough to hit that Super 35 look. (Nevermind 135 full frame...) Particularly in 4K mode, we're being pushed down to a 2.3x crop, Speedboosted that still leaves us at 1.6x which is a bit shy of S35.

Then we've got the native lens problems. Ultimately whoever is doing lens design at Panasonic is blowing it, for serious video work. Vesku has spent considerable effort documenting the glitchy Power OIS system, whether people want to face that reality or not. Lenses like the 12-35 aren't actually constant aperture, and they don't have continuous aperture control, which means all kinds of problems with exposure jumps. If you zoom a 12-35, it WILL exposure jump no matter what you set. Oddly the 12-40 is vastly better, though of course you now don't have IS. The lenses aren't even close to parfocal either. As a result, many are actually using the camera as a platform for speed boosted manual glass instead.

It's also still unclear what the optimal way to work with the color on the camera is. There's multiple variations of CineLike D, Neutral, Portrait, and Standard that each have their own pros and cons, and a lot of options on the camera for adjustment. It looks like the compression is too heavy to safely shoot totally flat - we just don't have enough latitude in post on an 8 bit 4:2:0 at 100 to fix it. Some of the profiles have slightly oddball color shifts.

So far, that all sounds bad. It's certainly not ideal. But our competition is problematic too:

A7S: Well for starters, the camera plus the requisite Shogun will set you back $4500. Not exactly a convenient form factor once you've assembled that, and with lenses on there it's starting to feel a lot like a camera that is better as a rigged package. There are color issues here too - blue color channel clipping is a headache, and S-log is turning out to be more of a problem to grade than expected/hoped. Let's not forget that this combo is spitting out ProRes encoded files which are going to be huge. Start thinking about arrays of 4-6 TB drives now. Did I mention the severe rolling shutter? And just look at the usability hassles: http://www.eoshd.com/2014/09/youre-better-shooting-video-stills-mode-sony-a7s/

NX1: Is h.265 a blessing or a curse? When will it actually fit in a workflow without transcode steps? How many firmwares will it take to fix the basic usability issues, and what nasty surprises are hiding down there once people start trying to grade 50 mbit footage seriously? How is the low light, actually? Rolling shutter is significant here too. By the way, no SpeedBooster ever and finding adapters for many other formats is turning out to be difficult. Probably forget about any chance of electronic smart adapters either.

Things are complicated.

 

[Vesku]

Well, okay. So let's stop for a moment and talk about both of these sentiments.

As a videographer's tool, the GH4 is in a slightly weird place. It's not a small chip camcorder, but it's not big enough to hit that Super 35 look. (Nevermind 135 full frame...) Particularly in 4K mode, we're being pushed down to a 2.3x crop, Speedboosted that still leaves us at 1.6x which is a bit shy of S35.

Then we've got the native lens problems. Ultimately whoever is doing lens design at Panasonic is blowing it, for serious video work. Vesku has spent considerable effort documenting the glitchy Power OIS system, whether people want to face that reality or not. Lenses like the 12-35 aren't actually constant aperture, and they don't have continuous aperture control, which means all kinds of problems with exposure jumps. If you zoom a 12-35, it WILL exposure jump no matter what you set. Oddly the 12-40 is vastly better, though of course you now don't have IS. The lenses aren't even close to parfocal either. As a result, many are actually using the camera as a platform for speed boosted manual glass instead.

It's also still unclear what the optimal way to work with the color on the camera is. There's multiple variations of CineLike D, Neutral, Portrait, and Standard that each have their own pros and cons, and a lot of options on the camera for adjustment. It looks like the compression is too heavy to safely shoot totally flat - we just don't have enough latitude in post on an 8 bit 4:2:0 at 100 to fix it. Some of the profiles have slightly oddball color shifts.

So far, that all sounds bad. It's certainly not ideal. But our competition is problematic too:

A7S: Well for starters, the camera plus the requisite Shogun will set you back $4500. Not exactly a convenient form factor once you've assembled that, and with lenses on there it's starting to feel a lot like a camera that is better as a rigged package. There are color issues here too - blue color channel clipping is a headache, and S-log is turning out to be more of a problem to grade than expected/hoped. Let's not forget that this combo is spitting out ProRes encoded files which are going to be huge. Start thinking about arrays of 4-6 TB drives now. Did I mention the severe rolling shutter? And just look at the usability hassles: http://www.eoshd.com/2014/09/youre-better-shooting-video-stills-mode-sony-a7s/

NX1: Is h.265 a blessing or a curse? When will it actually fit in a workflow without transcode steps? How many firmwares will it take to fix the basic usability issues, and what nasty surprises are hiding down there once people start trying to grade 50 mbit footage seriously? How is the low light, actually? Rolling shutter is significant here too. By the way, no SpeedBooster ever and finding adapters for many other formats is turning out to be difficult. Probably forget about any chance of electronic smart adapters either.

Things are complicated.

Thanks. Very good summary of current 4k DSRL-like consumer cameras. The world is not ready yet. GH4 is a good choice and it is interesting to wait FW improvements and GH5.

 

[tjuster1]

Easy to answer:

For a mirrorless to fat

Not first class view finder

no IBIS (in body stabilization)

too video-centric

 

[Promit]

Easy to answer:

For a mirrorless to fat

Not first class view finder

no IBIS (in body stabilization)

too video-centric

--
Thomas

I'm with Thomas except too and not to!

Seriously, I think that some people think the GH4 is simply too big for an m43 camera. Yes I know that many people like the size, but people who don't could be the ones putting their cameras for sale on eBay.

Just a thought.

While that's a possibility in the general speculative sense, it is a ridiculous reason IMO. One may as well criticize a 1DX for not being a medium format camera. It misses the point completely. Treat the GH4 as our 1D C and consider how little of a size penalty we paid for the jump to high end video.