Shoot through or reflective umbrella for more light spill

[Dervast]

Dear all,

I am travelling already with a 43 inch umbrella and I will be doing some family portraits (positioning family members in a couch and shooting).

Since this is not the optimal size modifier for this type of shoot, do you think I should use it as shoot through or as a reflective medium to cover all family members?

Regards

Alex

 

[photolando]

Really don't have enough info. Is that ALL your using? Any reflectors? Small room? Large room? Bright room? Dark room? Different locations? The same?

Every situation will be different and if your going to offer your services you need to be prepared for anything. One light may or may not cover it.

Having said that, given the fact that I only had one umbrella to do this and I was shooting in say someone's living room. I'd use a translucent umbrella. I don't say shoot through because I may not use it that way. I may still use it in the regular way (shaft pointed forward) and let the light still pass through the back and hit surrounding walls to create some fill light. This is why I ask about the room itself. If it's a large room, it may not matter. You won't get the fill. If the walls are dark you may not get the fill either.

A regular umbrella may allow a little light to bounce off walls/ceilings but only those that get hit from the light coming from the front. And again, if it's a bright room and small enough, you may get it.

Going in blind? I'd take a shoot through/translucent umbrella to be on the safe side. Try it both ways (forwards/backwards) and see what lights the families better.

 

[Sailor Blue]

A shoot through umbrella is a light grenade, throwing out light in all directions with about one half of the light going through the umbrella to the subject area and the other half bouncing off the umbrella and into the environment.

If the surrounding walls and ceiling are white or creamy in color this stray light bouncing off the ceiling and walls will add to the overall softness of the light and to the area covered with light. If the ceiling or walls are colored this stray light will bounce back after taking on a color cast and will color contaminate the subjects.

I much prefer using a reflective umbrella with a black backing. There is still a lot more light sent out to the sides than from a similar sized softbox but it is more controlled lighting than you get with a shoot through umbrella.

If you are shooting a small group on and behind a couch then can you take two lights, stands, and umbrellas. Place the side by side above the camera so that you are shooting through the ^ between the umbrellas and you will get a much wider area that is the same exposure and the light will be softer and more flattering. Aim the lights at the group behind the couch. That way both those seated and those standing, who are further from the lights, will get close to the same exposure because of the inverse square law.

 

[Dervast]

Hi, few physics type of questions

A shoot through umbrella is a light grenade, throwing out light in all directions with about one half of the light going through the umbrella to the subject area and the other half bouncing off the umbrella and into the environment.

Haha I like how you characterized the shoot through umbrella. I was just wondering why... what makes the light spread more than the bear flash? I can only think that the light is spreading normally up to the point it reaches the umbrellas material.. I do not see where the light reflections happening,, and still if there are many.. are not many more in the reflective umbrella where the reflective material just causes more of those?

If the surrounding walls and ceiling are white or creamy in color this stray light bouncing off the ceiling and walls will add to the overall softness of the light and to the area covered with light. If the ceiling or walls are colored this stray light will bounce back after taking on a color cast and will color contaminate the subjects.

I much prefer using a reflective umbrella with a black backing. There is still a lot more light sent out to the sides than from a similar sized softbox but it is more controlled lighting than you get with a shoot through umbrella.

If you are shooting a small group on and behind a couch then can you take two lights, stands, and umbrellas. Place the side by side above the camera so that you are shooting through the ^ between the umbrellas and you will get a much wider area that is the same exposure and the light will be softer and more flattering. Aim the lights at the group behind the couch. That way both those seated and those standing, who are further from the lights, will get close to the same exposure because of the inverse square law

Placeing two umbrellas side by side can it also make crazy lighthing patterns in the room? For example both umbrellas would have a fall off region.. should you combine perfectly their fall of regions somewhere at the middle of the screen (I guess you have the two umbrellas at the two different sides of the couch). Do not you have any type of umbrella alignment to face?

 

[Sailor Blue]

Hi, few physics type of questions

A shoot through umbrella is a light grenade, throwing out light in all directions with about one half of the light going through the umbrella to the subject area and the other half bouncing off the umbrella and into the environment.

Haha I like how you characterized the shoot through umbrella. I was just wondering why... what makes the light spread more than the bear flash? I can only think that the light is spreading normally up to the point it reaches the umbrellas material.. I do not see where the light reflections happening,, and still if there are many.. are not many more in the reflective umbrella where the reflective material just causes more of those?

Here is what happens with a reflective umbrella that has a black backing.





Here is what happens with a shoot through umbrella, aka a light grenade.

If the surrounding walls and ceiling are white or creamy in color this stray light bouncing off the ceiling and walls will add to the overall softness of the light and to the area covered with light. If the ceiling or walls are colored this stray light will bounce back after taking on a color cast and will color contaminate the subjects.

I much prefer using a reflective umbrella with a black backing. There is still a lot more light sent out to the sides than from a similar sized softbox but it is more controlled lighting than you get with a shoot through umbrella.

If you are shooting a small group on and behind a couch then can you take two lights, stands, and umbrellas. Place the side by side above the camera so that you are shooting through the ^ between the umbrellas and you will get a much wider area that is the same exposure and the light will be softer and more flattering. Aim the lights at the group behind the couch. That way both those seated and those standing, who are further from the lights, will get close to the same exposure because of the inverse square law

Placeing two umbrellas side by side can it also make crazy lighthing patterns in the room? For example both umbrellas would have a fall off region.. should you combine perfectly their fall of regions somewhere at the middle of the screen (I guess you have the two umbrellas at the two different sides of the couch). Do not you have any type of umbrella alignment to face?

If you butt two identical umbrellas up against each other they become a single light source twice as long as wide.

When you separate the two umbrellas you have to deal with the individual regions they light. One example is using two umbrellas to evenly light a background. You place one on each side of the background and aim each about 1/3 of the way in from the opposit side of the background. You then feather the umbrellas until you get even lighting all across the background.



--
Living and loving it in Pattaya, Thailand. Canon 7D - See the gear list for the rest.

 

[Kim Letkeman]

Hi, few physics type of questions

A shoot through umbrella is a light grenade, throwing out light in all directions with about one half of the light going through the umbrella to the subject area and the other half bouncing off the umbrella and into the environment.

Haha I like how you characterized the shoot through umbrella. I was just wondering why... what makes the light spread more than the bear flash? I can only think that the light is spreading normally up to the point it reaches the umbrellas material.. I do not see where the light reflections happening,, and still if there are many.. are not many more in the reflective umbrella where the reflective material just causes more of those?

Here is what happens with a reflective umbrella that has a black backing.



Here is what happens with a shoot through umbrella, aka a light grenade.

If the surrounding walls and ceiling are white or creamy in color this stray light bouncing off the ceiling and walls will add to the overall softness of the light and to the area covered with light. If the ceiling or walls are colored this stray light will bounce back after taking on a color cast and will color contaminate the subjects.

I much prefer using a reflective umbrella with a black backing. There is still a lot more light sent out to the sides than from a similar sized softbox but it is more controlled lighting than you get with a shoot through umbrella.

If you are shooting a small group on and behind a couch then can you take two lights, stands, and umbrellas. Place the side by side above the camera so that you are shooting through the ^ between the umbrellas and you will get a much wider area that is the same exposure and the light will be softer and more flattering. Aim the lights at the group behind the couch. That way both those seated and those standing, who are further from the lights, will get close to the same exposure because of the inverse square law

Placeing two umbrellas side by side can it also make crazy lighthing patterns in the room? For example both umbrellas would have a fall off region.. should you combine perfectly their fall of regions somewhere at the middle of the screen (I guess you have the two umbrellas at the two different sides of the couch). Do not you have any type of umbrella alignment to face?

If you butt two identical umbrellas up against each other they become a single light source twice as long as wide.

When you separate the two umbrellas you have to deal with the individual regions they light. One example is using two umbrellas to evenly light a background. You place one on each side of the background and aim each about 1/3 of the way in from the opposit side of the background. You then feather the umbrellas until you get even lighting all across the background.

I didn't see anywhere that he has a cover for the umbrella, but if so then yes, the reflective version exerts much more control. But it also focuses the light more, so if there are a lot of people to cover might this be a problem?

If the environment is neutral walls, would be useful to try a beauty light position with shoot through from just above the camera? That would spread the light wide ...

--

Nothing Special

This blog is my personal space. Do not confuse this with statements or opinions on behalf of any employer I have ever had, have now, or will ever have in the future.

kimletkeman.blogspot.com

 

[Sailor Blue]

I didn't see anywhere that he has a cover for the umbrella, but if so then yes, the reflective version exerts much more control. But it also focuses the light more, so if there are a lot of people to cover might this be a problem?

You get a wider spread of light from a shoot through umbrella because of the curved shape of the umbrella. Basically light that is transmitted spreads out in a hemisphere that is brightest at the center and falls off to the sides.

The reflected light pretty much spreads out in another hemisphere to finish making a full sphere of light. The light from the reflection is more even toward the center and falls off faster toward the edges.

It is all the light transmitted to the sides as well as the reflected light that causes the stray light problem with a shoot through umbrella.

When a reflective umbrella has a black backing the spread is better controlled and you get much less stray light.

The advantage of a shoot through umbrella is that you can get it closer to the subject to increase the relative size of the light source. Outdoors where stray light isn't a problem a shoot through umbrella is a great choice. Indoors I much prefer a reflective umbrella.

If the environment is neutral walls, would be useful to try a beauty light position with shoot through from just above the camera? That would spread the light wide ...

Not really. When using butterfly lighting (beauty lighting) you need to add light from below to control the density of the shadows below the nose and chin and to add light to the eye sockets. Stray light bouncing off the ceiling would be detrimental, not helpful. Stray light from the sides might help but you can't control it so you can't count on it being consistent from shoot to shoot.

A beauty dish is often used for butterfly portraits since it provides a partially softened hard light that is very flattering to young subjects with great clean skin and the light is very well controlled. By aiming the dish just in front of the subject you can use a reflector for the shadows.

A small silver umbrella in reflection mode or a small softbox with the outer diffuser removed (leave the inner diffuser in place) are good substitutes for a beauty dish but the results are a bit different since the light spread is different.

 

[Kim Letkeman]

I didn't see anywhere that he has a cover for the umbrella, but if so then yes, the reflective version exerts much more control. But it also focuses the light more, so if there are a lot of people to cover might this be a problem?

You get a wider spread of light from a shoot through umbrella because of the curved shape of the umbrella. Basically light that is transmitted spreads out in a hemisphere that is brightest at the center and falls off to the sides.

The reflected light pretty much spreads out in another hemisphere to finish making a full sphere of light. The light from the reflection is more even toward the center and falls off faster toward the edges.

It is all the light transmitted to the sides as well as the reflected light that causes the stray light problem with a shoot through umbrella.

When a reflective umbrella has a black backing the spread is better controlled and you get much less stray light.

The advantage of a shoot through umbrella is that you can get it closer to the subject to increase the relative size of the light source. Outdoors where stray light isn't a problem a shoot through umbrella is a great choice. Indoors I much prefer a reflective umbrella.

Yes, I am actually aware of all that, thanks. My specific question was whether shooting with the umbrella in reflective mode would be an issue for a group because the light is not spreading as well?

If the environment is neutral walls, would be useful to try a beauty light position with shoot through from just above the camera? That would spread the light wide ...

Not really. When using butterfly lighting (beauty lighting) you need to add light from below to control the density of the shadows below the nose and chin and to add light to the eye sockets. Stray light bouncing off the ceiling would be detrimental, not helpful. Stray light from the sides might help but you can't control it so you can't count on it being consistent from shoot to shoot.

Yes, but a large umbrella just above the camera should wrap more than sufficiently to open shadows under the chin, no?

A beauty dish is often used for butterfly portraits since it provides a partially softened hard light that is very flattering to young subjects with great clean skin and the light is very well controlled. By aiming the dish just in front of the subject you can use a reflector for the shadows.

Yes, again, I am aware of that. And since the topic is groups shots I think we can consider beauty dish with reflector held below to be a bit off topic.

A small silver umbrella in reflection mode or a small softbox with the outer diffuser removed (leave the inner diffuser in place) are good substitutes for a beauty dish but the results are a bit different since the light spread is different.

And not all that useful for a group.

 

[Fargonz]

In an effort to better use the gear I have already I found that using my big shoot through style brolly as a "normal" (ie bouncing into it) one works great. I get key & fill in one go. The disclaimer here would be that it works well in the particular space I'm shooting in.

 

[john isaacs]

Dear all,

I am travelling already with a 43 inch umbrella and I will be doing some family portraits (positioning family members in a couch and shooting).

Since this is not the optimal size modifier for this type of shoot, do you think I should use it as shoot through or as a reflective medium to cover all family members?

Regards

Alex

 

[Sailor Blue]

Dear all,

I am travelling already with a 43 inch umbrella and I will be doing some family portraits (positioning family members in a couch and shooting).

Since this is not the optimal size modifier for this type of shoot, do you think I should use it as shoot through or as a reflective medium to cover all family members?

Regards

Alex

--
“The fact is that relatively few photographers ever master their medium. Instead they allow the medium to master them and go on an endless squirrel cage chase from new lens to new paper to new developer to new gadget, never staying with one piece of equipment long enough to learn its full capacities, becoming lost in a maze of technical information that is of little or no use since they don’t know what to do with it”
(written at 1927 by Edward Weston)

Use it as a reflector, put it as high up as possible, and shoot as directly underneath as possible.

The umbrella shouldn't be too high or it will cause raccoon eyes. A 43" umbrella is really too small but the best place to use a single 43" umbrella is probably with the camera at the subject's eye level and the bottom of the umbrella just touching the top of the lens.

I would much rather use a 5' umbrella right next to the camera and centered a foot or so above the lens. I would shoot RAW, boost the ISO as necessary, and remove the noise in post processing. The problem is transporting a 5' umbrella which is almost 40" long when closed.

Adorama - Photogenic 909317 60in Eclipse White Satin Umbrella 909317

B&H - Impact Convertible 60" Umbrella - White Satin with Removable Backing

Be sure to take a white balance shot (you need a WB target for this positioned at the sofa) to compensate for whatever coloration comes from the reflections off the walls.

Be sure that the flash zoom is wide angle, and the flash is positioned well away from the umbrella, in order to ensure the most uniform and full lighting of the umbrella.

Turn the umbrella around and take test shots of it.


Flash too close to umbrella.

[ATTACH alt="Flash properly positioned to "fill" but not overflow the umbrella."]media_3104372[/ATTACH]
Flash properly positioned to "fill" but not overflow the umbrella.

You might want to position the umbrella closer to the subject than you shoot from; the umbrella is positioned so that all of the subject area is illuminated. You are positioned far enough that you get the desired DOF and coverage with your lens.

If you can, get the sofa as far from the wall and other background elements as possible. You might need to shoot from another room.

Finally, if you can mount the umbrella to a boom arm or some other way so that there is not a pole directly under the umbrella, then you can step back and shoot under the umbrella from a distance. For example, I use a background stand and bar, clamp the umbrella mount to the bar, and then shoot between the background stands and under the umbrella. Gets the light up close (it's a larger apparent source) but gets me back for narrow DOF and background separation.

--
Living and loving it in Pattaya, Thailand. Canon 7D - See the gear list for the rest.

 

[Paulmorgan]

Dear all,

I am travelling already with a 43 inch umbrella and I will be doing some family portraits (positioning family members in a couch and shooting).

Since this is not the optimal size modifier for this type of shoot, do you think I should use it as shoot through or as a reflective medium to cover all family members?

Regards

Alex

 

[Dervast]

Dear all,

I am travelling already with a 43 inch umbrella and I will be doing some family portraits (positioning family members in a couch and shooting).

Since this is not the optimal size modifier for this type of shoot, do you think I should use it as shoot through or as a reflective medium to cover all family members?

Regards

Alex

--
“The fact is that relatively few photographers ever master their medium. Instead they allow the medium to master them and go on an endless squirrel cage chase from new lens to new paper to new developer to new gadget, never staying with one piece of equipment long enough to learn its full capacities, becoming lost in a maze of technical information that is of little or no use since they don’t know what to do with it”
(written at 1927 by Edward Weston)

Use it as a reflector, put it as high up as possible, and shoot as directly underneath as possible.

The umbrella shouldn't be too high or it will cause raccoon eyes. A 43" umbrella is really too small but the best place to use a single 43" umbrella is probably with the camera at the subject's eye level and the bottom of the umbrella just touching the top of the lens.

I would much rather use a 5' umbrella right next to the camera and centered a foot or so above the lens. I would shoot RAW, boost the ISO as necessary, and remove the noise in post processing. The problem is transporting a 5' umbrella which is almost 40" long when closed.

Adorama - Photogenic 909317 60in Eclipse White Satin Umbrella 909317

B&H - Impact Convertible 60" Umbrella - White Satin with Removable Backing

Be sure to take a white balance shot (you need a WB target for this positioned at the sofa) to compensate for whatever coloration comes from the reflections off the walls.

Be sure that the flash zoom is wide angle, and the flash is positioned well away from the umbrella, in order to ensure the most uniform and full lighting of the umbrella.

Turn the umbrella around and take test shots of it.


Flash too close to umbrella.

[ATTACH alt="Flash properly positioned to "fill" but not overflow the umbrella."]media_3104372[/ATTACH]
Flash properly positioned to "fill" but not overflow the umbrella.

You might want to position the umbrella closer to the subject than you shoot from; the umbrella is positioned so that all of the subject area is illuminated. You are positioned far enough that you get the desired DOF and coverage with your lens.

If you can, get the sofa as far from the wall and other background elements as possible. You might need to shoot from another room.

Finally, if you can mount the umbrella to a boom arm or some other way so that there is not a pole directly under the umbrella, then you can step back and shoot under the umbrella from a distance. For example, I use a background stand and bar, clamp the umbrella mount to the bar, and then shoot between the background stands and under the umbrella. Gets the light up close (it's a larger apparent source) but gets me back for narrow DOF and background separation.

--
Living and loving it in Pattaya, Thailand. Canon 7D - See the gear list for the rest.

Thanks very good technique... I think I should give my self more time when setting up gear (For some reason I get too much concern that my subject would get bored if has to wait for a bit)

Alex

--
“The fact is that relatively few photographers ever master their medium. Instead they allow the medium to master them and go on an endless squirrel cage chase from new lens to new paper to new developer to new gadget, never staying with one piece of equipment long enough to learn its full capacities, becoming lost in a maze of technical information that is of little or no use since they don’t know what to do with it”
(written at 1927 by Edward Weston)