Ever have the feeling you are underpricing your services?

[Ellis Vener]

You aren't alone. Far from it. I do too. While it's easier to blame clients, youare likely your #1 worst enemy when it comes to knowing what a reasonable and fair price is.

Maybe this will help: http://blog.creativelive.com/how-to...al&utm_source=cjfacebook&utm_content&utm_term

 

[Graham Snook]

I fully agree with the article in the link, and have said so many times on here. It would have been good to read more. But hey, what do I know?


=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-Always give the client a vertical-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Graham Snook Photography

I can supply photography, 360-degree tours and video to promote your company and help you sell more

grahamsnook.com

 

[Richard Weisgrau]

I agree with the article's author's position. I have made the same point in several of my trade books. In my own business life I always took the position that negotiating is the process of establishing value to each party. Too many photographers focus on meeting their costs, but forget that meeting one's costs including personal compensation is not enough to stay in business. You have to build equity that allows you to survive recessions, provide for expansion, and fuel retirement.

Unfortunately, the large number of otherwise employed, part time pro photographers who live off their salaries and then under value their photography work is growing. That makes it much harder for the full time pro/business owner to sustain the equal value equation. Now if photography were like brain surgery that would not be a problem, but unfortunately it is a much simpler skill.

 

[COYQ]

Now if photography were like brain surgery that would not be a problem, but unfortunately it is a much simpler skill.

 

[RhysM]

Now if photography were like brain surgery that would not be a problem, but unfortunately it is a much simpler skill.

 

[markhayphotography]

Now if photography were like brain surgery that would not be a problem, but unfortunately it is a much simpler skill.

--
Richard Weisgrau
www.drawnwithlight.com

Whilst photography isn't brain surgery, it's not a simple skill to do well and properly - the problem is the typical customer doesn't appreciate what is involved and thinks anyone with a 'proper' camera can take good photos.

You only need to read the frequent threads in the beginners forum from people who have been asked by a friend or relative to take their wedding photos. How many of them also ask friends with no skills to make the wedding dress, do the catering, arrange the flowers.........

Most people simply don't value photography. That's the challenge for the professional market - how to turn that attitude around.

I am one of those part time photographers who has a full time career outside of pro photography, though I am art teacher and it leaks over all the time. That being said, my business is legitimate, insured (etc.) and cost me money to simply exist as a photography business...and therefore I can't afford to devalue my work. And since I am part time and my photography business is separate from my personal finances, I must break even and create a profit with less work (opportunity) throughout the year than if I was full time. For this reason, I have all the more incentive to not devalue my work. I fully acknowledge that there are many part time photographers who have not taken the steps to be a real business, but this is just me.

That being said, I do agree that people don't value photography as much (and partly for your reasoning) for other reasons as well. I just think that the pendulum is just about to come to a stop and start swinging the other way. This situation of "having a great camera is all you need" has been around for the better part of a decade, and I think people are starting to learn that it isn't the same thing when it comes to weddings, events and portraits.

My thought is that the value of photography has lessened because everyone is a photographer now with their phones. The cell phone makes capturing any moment every time easy as pie for most. Most people think they even do a decent job at it. The phones have a lot of megapixels, which leaves plenty of room for error when the image will rarely be viewed any larger than the touch screen itself. So if they believe they can do a decent job for free, then it makes sense in their minds that the pro photographers should be offering to a (better than) decent job for just "a little bit more than free"....hence, the devaluation of pro photography.

 

[Richard Weisgrau]

Now if photography were like brain surgery that would not be a problem, but unfortunately it is a much simpler skill.

 

[Fargonz]

And Facebook doesn't help- anyone posting a picture can end up with hundreds of "likes" whether photo is good or crap. hence inflating everyones opinion of thier skill level...

 

[ampimagedotcom]

RhysM wrote:

YOU may feel like you're undervaluing your services but it's the CLIENT'S opinion that matters. So, the reality of the situation boils down to, is some money better than no money in the absence of a more profitable assignment? Now, some money might not be ideal but it stands a better chance of paying the mortgage than the 100% possibility of defaulting if you have no money.

Yes, however, the question is: 'some money is better than no money' for what exactly ?

In other words, are you talking 'some money is better than no money' for your time to do the work OR are you talking about 'some money is better than no money' for the use of your work ??

Cheers,
Ashley.

www.ampimage.com

(For exclusive use for IPC Media to use these images for:- Media use: Cover plus editorial feature in Beautiful Kitchens magazine. Period of use: 90 days from 1st publication date. Territory of use: UK & Ireland only. Licence fee based on the above information... as that's what determined the value to them.)

(For exclusive use for Robinson Interiors to use this image for:- Media use: Worldwide Web. Period of use: 1 year. Territory of use: Internet only. Licence fee based on the above information... as that's what determined the value to them.)

(For exclusive use for Robinson Interiors to use these images for:- Media use: Advertorial feature in the Irish Kitchens magazine. Period of use: 90 days from 1st publication date. Territory of use: Ireland only. Licence fee based on the above information... as that's what determined the value to them.)

 

[Graham Snook]

"So, the reality of the situation boils down to, is some money better than no money in the absence of a more profitable assignment? Now, some money might not be ideal but it stands a better chance of paying the mortgage than the 100% possibility of defaulting if you have no money"

So if your boss came to you and cut your pay by 50% you you be happy with "some" money? You would happily stay there thinking, that "some" money is paying a bit of the mortgage off. I won't look for an employer that values my services enough to pay me for the value of my work, because I have some money. Which is after all what they are paying you for, the value you bring to that company. After all if they were paying you for your time they might not like how much of it you spend on here

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-Always give the client a vertical-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Graham Snook Photography

I can supply photography, 360-degree tours and video to promote your company and help you sell more

grahamsnook.com

 

[COYQ]

Most people simply don't value photography. That's the challenge for the professional market - how to turn that attitude around.

YOU may feel like you're undervaluing your services but it's the CLIENT'S opinion that matters. So, the reality of the situation boils down to, is some money better than no money in the absence of a more profitable assignment? Now, some money might not be ideal but it stands a better chance of paying the mortgage than the 100% possibility of defaulting if you have no money.

.......

So whilst it would be nice to have a magic cure, mind-set or business plan to increase fees and charge the rates you value yourself at, the realities of supply and demand will always prevail and determine the price.

In my opinion the decisions that need to be made aren't about how to increase prices. Rather to come to terms with the reality of the situation and decide a) whether you can afford to/have no alternative than continue doing the job you enjoy/know for the money it can provide or b) get out and find a more profitable means of making a living. Sometimes the ideal solution of staying put and making more money just isn't possible.

I think you have kind of missed my point. Clients in general don't particularly place much value on photography these days. They often think it's just a case of picking up a 'good' camera, pointing it at the subject and click, it's done.

So a clients opinion is that you're ripping them off if you charge more than a nominal sum for an hours work!

A simplistic generalisation maybe but you get the point hopefully.

The challenge for all pro and semi pro photographers is how to change that mindset, and make more people generally value what a skilled photographer can do for them.

 

[RhysM]

"So, the reality of the situation boils down to, is some money better than no money in the absence of a more profitable assignment? Now, some money might not be ideal but it stands a better chance of paying the mortgage than the 100% possibility of defaulting if you have no money"

So if your boss came to you and cut your pay by 50% you you be happy with "some" money?

Wouldn't be "happy" but if there was no other alternative I'd have to accept it, at least in the interim.

Though in reality this doesn't happen in my industry in those terms, but I'm fortunate as there isn't currently a surplus of people to do my job, in fact it's widely believed that in 10 years there will be a serious shortfall of accountants based on current trends (more businesses incorporating and/or floating, issues with increasing demand for big data/analytical reporting to stakeholders, increasingly complex reporting standards, etc...)

What does often happen is job posts are made redundant and renamed under a slightly different job description and the company takes someone on at a reduced salary to fill the gap. Fortunately for the outgoing employee this normally results in a fairly healthy redundancy/early retirement depending on their age to cushion the blow.

So I guess your question is a bit of an apples vs oranges issue for me. But in general terms I do know friends who have had to do the same job for a reduced salary, not as drastic as a 50% cut, but a 20% pay cut and have been told if they don't like it to find employment elsewhere.

 

[RhysM]

Most people simply don't value photography. That's the challenge for the professional market - how to turn that attitude around.

YOU may feel like you're undervaluing your services but it's the CLIENT'S opinion that matters. So, the reality of the situation boils down to, is some money better than no money in the absence of a more profitable assignment? Now, some money might not be ideal but it stands a better chance of paying the mortgage than the 100% possibility of defaulting if you have no money.

.......

So whilst it would be nice to have a magic cure, mind-set or business plan to increase fees and charge the rates you value yourself at, the realities of supply and demand will always prevail and determine the price.

In my opinion the decisions that need to be made aren't about how to increase prices. Rather to come to terms with the reality of the situation and decide a) whether you can afford to/have no alternative than continue doing the job you enjoy/know for the money it can provide or b) get out and find a more profitable means of making a living. Sometimes the ideal solution of staying put and making more money just isn't possible.

I think you have kind of missed my point. Clients in general don't particularly place much value on photography these days. They often think it's just a case of picking up a 'good' camera, pointing it at the subject and click, it's done.

So a clients opinion is that you're ripping them off if you charge more than a nominal sum for an hours work!

A simplistic generalisation maybe but you get the point hopefully.

The challenge for all pro and semi pro photographers is how to change that mindset, and make more people generally value what a skilled photographer can do for them.

I don't think I missed the point. I just attempted to qualify the issue of making clients value photography more i.e. pay more, rather than dancing around it with euphemisms that never actually translate into tangible strategies, for the reasons I stated in the rest of my post i.e. supply and demand.

 

[COYQ]

RhysM wrote: I don't think I missed the point. I just attempted to qualify the issue of making clients value photography more i.e. pay more, rather than dancing around it with euphemisms that never actually translate into tangible strategies, for the reasons I stated in the rest of my post i.e. supply and demand.

As it happens I just saw a message on my Twitter from someone asking for help from any photographers for advice on taking photos of his new product range.

Now I'm guessing he didn't just hand some pins and needles to get a bunch of mates to make up the garments he's selling, he was probably happy to pay a garment factory to make them up for him.

He's probably also happy to pay for adverts he's placing, rather than just sticking up some hand drawn notices on random fences.

But he needs photographs, and expects to that that for nothing - because he owns a camera.

Clearly he's not getting the results he needs, but still thinks the photos should be 'free'. It probably hasn't even occurred to him that maybe he should pay someone else to take photos because they have the necessary skills and equipment!!

 

[RhysM]

RhysM wrote: I don't think I missed the point. I just attempted to qualify the issue of making clients value photography more i.e. pay more, rather than dancing around it with euphemisms that never actually translate into tangible strategies, for the reasons I stated in the rest of my post i.e. supply and demand.

As it happens I just saw a message on my Twitter from someone asking for help from any photographers for advice on taking photos of his new product range.

Now I'm guessing he didn't just hand some pins and needles to get a bunch of mates to make up the garments he's selling, he was probably happy to pay a garment factory to make them up for him.

He's probably also happy to pay for adverts he's placing, rather than just sticking up some hand drawn notices on random fences.

But he needs photographs, and expects to that that for nothing - because he owns a camera.

Clearly he's not getting the results he needs, but still thinks the photos should be 'free'. It probably hasn't even occurred to him that maybe he should pay someone else to take photos because they have the necessary skills and equipment!!

Probably not. However, whilst he might not be getting the results he wants right now, with a bit of perseverance and syphoning tips/advice from various sources he probably will get the results he wants in the end, for free.

Additionally, even if he doesn't get the results he wants, someone with a better camera, lighting equipment or just better knowledge will probably offer to do it for free or "beer money" because it's a hobby/sideline.

And that's the problem, it's hard to make clients value photography when it's a hobby as well as a profession and people are prepared to do it for fun/personal satisfaction in their spare time or a token amount of money or just as a personal challenge.

 

[DenWil]

You aren't alone. Far from it. I do too. While it's easier to blame clients, youare likely your #1 worst enemy when it comes to knowing what a reasonable and fair price is.

Maybe this will help: http://blog.creativelive.com/how-to...al&utm_source=cjfacebook&utm_content&utm_term

When I first saw this thread I wrote a response and then realized that you were not actually asking that question.

Checking back I see others were not so concerned with structure so here is my original answer:

"Ever have the feeling you are underpricing your services?"

I was fortunate to be very well paid early on, well educated about the math side of the business, both commercial work and gallery aspects, and was always aware of exactly what my contemporaries further up the ladder were making. All combined in my situation to create an attitude wherein I am not shy about expecting a certain level of compensation and editorial control.

If I invest to much time or energy that is not invoiced into a job it is my standards and my personal expectations that I am falling victim to, not the customers, so I have no one to blame but myself.