Would you invest in EF-S?

[Freek07]

After quite a long time I'm starting to photograph again. I still have my old EOS 20D with kit lens 17-85 and two cheap EF lenses (75-300 and 50mm 1.8). I'd like to go a bit wider but the thing is...

...sooner or later I'll have to replace the camera anyway and I was always dreaming of FF, mostly because of lower noise and nicer bokeh but I'm not sure when I'll really buy it- it's like a distant dream

I'm doing mostly static objects- I love long night shots, nature/landscapes and I'm learning some macro (using rings).

The thing is- if I buy 10-22 or something similar, I'd invest a substantial amount of money in lens that would be passe on FF body.

What do you think- would you invest in EF-S? :-/

 

[Hank3152]

.........unless you plan on going FF in the very near future go ahead and get the 10-22 or another EF-S lens. You can still get a lot of use out of it and then put it up for sale, otherwise you will have missed opportunities in the meantime......

If you really want to save $$$, buy used from a reliable source like members on FM or POTN. You can find them around $450-500. You should be able to get just about what you paid for it since it won't depreciate as much when you resell it.

Consider buying used as cheap rental.........

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/board/10
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=14

--
"Five out of four people have trouble with fractions."
Regards,
Hank

 

[Great Bustard]

After quite a long time I'm starting to photograph again. I still have my old EOS 20D with kit lens 17-85 and two cheap EF lenses (75-300 and 50mm 1.8). I'd like to go a bit wider but the thing is...

...sooner or later I'll have to replace the camera anyway and I was always dreaming of FF, mostly because of lower noise and nicer bokeh but I'm not sure when I'll really buy it- it's like a distant dream

I'm doing mostly static objects- I love long night shots, nature/landscapes and I'm learning some macro (using rings).

The thing is- if I buy 10-22 or something similar, I'd invest a substantial amount of money in lens that would be passe on FF body.

What do you think- would you invest in EF-S? :-/

If you plan on staying with 1.6x, then the best lenses for the system are typically the ones designed specifically for the format, so I'd get the best lenses I could afford.

 

[ed rader]

/////

 

[jitteringjr]

I think investing in EF-s lenses is a safe bet up to a point and I am at that point if not a little past it. When the 7D came out, there wasn't a comparable FF sports body short of spending over $5K on a 1D series body, which simply would never happen on my budget. However, now that the 5D3 is out, there is one becoming within reach especially if I wait to the end of its life cycle right before or right after a 5D4 would come out.

So now I have 5 crop lenses: Sigma 17-50, 30/1.4 EX, and Canon 18-55 IS, 55-250 IS, and 60/2.8. One could also add the 10-22 and Sigma 50-150 and have a very nice kit there with 7 lenses. With just my 5 crop lenses, if I were to sell my 2 crop cameras and go full frame, I would also need to deal with the hassle of selling these 5 lenses and I am going to loose money in that process unless I only buy FF lenses used to replace them. If I buy used, I am at risk of not getting copies as good on my new camera as these are on my 7D now from an AF accuracy and calibration stand point. Even if you meet with someone in person and do a bunch of test shots, you still don't have a real good feel for how well the AF is. For instance, if I do a MFA on a lens, it might be a good week of use before I feel confident with the change. This has a lot to do with the consistency of the system. New lenses after 2010 and the new 5D3 have a feedback loop to help this, but I digress. If I buy new where I have a return period, that cost to me is substantial.

So what I have learned from this is that there are certain lenses where I feel you really should invest in crop lenses and other cases where you should stick to the FF options.

UWA and standard zoom lenses you need to stay in EF-s land. Other than the expensive and IMO mediocre Sigma 12-24, there is no crop option to get ultra wide. In the standard zoom options, the only alternatives from the FF world are UWA FF lenses. None of these are stabilized and have much less range or aperture (or both) than the crop standard zoom options. Another option where I think a good choice is the 55-250 because its so cheap that you are not out much when you need to upgrade and because if you are in that market, you are a beginner, usually at least, and it just makes sense for a starter small kit.

Lenses where I just wouldn't buy a crop version: personally from experience on a few of these. I would not buy a Sigma 30/1.4 even the new art version. For a little more, the new 35/2 IS is the way I would go. Macro lenses, I would stick to the 100mm-ish options. Even though my 60/2.8 is stoopid sharp, the extra working distance of a longer lens would be worth it on crop.

Finally the 50-150/2.8 I would not buy. It’s a fantastic lens, but the used market for it is just not there. A guy on the local craigslist took over 8 months of posting before he either just stopped or finally got a buy. His pricing was more than fair IMO too. I think a 70-200 option here or maybe a couple of primes would be the better way to go. Seeing how Sigma is discontinuing this lens, it would seem my opinions on this are not alone.

 

[Peter Kwok]

Stocks, bonds, real estates, etc. are investments. Lens are tools, not investments. You buy them when you need them. You trade them in when they are no longer useful to you. You will never get back what you paid. Hopefully, the resale value of used EF-s is good enough so that your loss will be small compared to the utility you got out of the beautiful photos.

We can only guess what the future market for crop cameras in general or EF-s lens in particular will be. There are speculations that most photos will be shot with smartphones and only pro DSLR will keep its niche market. Your guess is just as good as anyone's.

Don't worry about "investing". Buy them when you need them. Learn on them. Use them. Enjoy them.

BTW, I have the 10-22 since 2006 and loved it very much until I upgraded to full frame 1.5 years ago. It is now on permanent loan to my nephew, who also enjoys it very much. After all these years, it still works trouble free.

Click here to see my mini-review of the 10-22 and samples.

 

[photonius]

After quite a long time I'm starting to photograph again. I still have my old EOS 20D with kit lens 17-85 and two cheap EF lenses (75-300 and 50mm 1.8). I'd like to go a bit wider but the thing is...

...sooner or later I'll have to replace the camera anyway and I was always dreaming of FF, mostly because of lower noise and nicer bokeh but I'm not sure when I'll really buy it- it's like a distant dream

bokeh is a property of the lens, not sensor size. in fact, lens selection for crop is larger than for FF. if you mean less DOF, yes that's true, but how often do you really use ultrathin DOF?

I'm doing mostly static objects- I love long night shots, nature/landscapes and I'm learning some macro (using rings).

The thing is- if I buy 10-22 or something similar, I'd invest a substantial amount of money in lens that would be passe on FF body.

well, because of the 1.6x focal length multiplier, you have to get a crop (EF-S, or similar from sigma/tokina/tamron) lens to get 10mm. No FF EF 10mm lens. the ef 16-35 is an ultrawide for FF, it will only be a normal lens on crop.

What do you think- would you invest in EF-S? :-/

 

[hesbehindyou]

I'm doing mostly static objects- I love long night shots, nature/landscapes and I'm learning some macro

The main benefit of FF is the sharper gradient between in focus and out of focus areas (that comes from using a longer focal length for the same framing). I don't see any significant benefit to the types of photography you've listed above when using a FF sensor. I'd continue using the 20D and whatever lenses you require.

 

[needmoretoys]

I wish that I could replace all of my older FF lenses with equivalent EF-S lenses, but there is nothing available that is equivalent to a couple of my best ones. I have no intention of going to FF, so it would be an easy decision for me. The reason that I would replace my Sigma 180mm APO HSM macro and Canon 200mm f2.8L II is that the EF-S version would be lighter. If I were looking at moving up to FF in less than a couple of years then I would just buy a minimum of EF-S lenses.

 

[William Woodruff]

After quite a long time I'm starting to photograph again. I still have my old EOS 20D with kit lens 17-85 and two cheap EF lenses (75-300 and 50mm 1.8). I'd like to go a bit wider but the thing is...

...sooner or later I'll have to replace the camera anyway and I was always dreaming of FF, mostly because of lower noise and nicer bokeh but I'm not sure when I'll really buy it- it's like a distant dream

bokeh is a property of the lens, not sensor size. in fact, lens selection for crop is larger than for FF. if you mean less DOF, yes that's true, but how often do you really use ultrathin DOF?

I'm doing mostly static objects- I love long night shots, nature/landscapes and I'm learning some macro (using rings).

The thing is- if I buy 10-22 or something similar, I'd invest a substantial amount of money in lens that would be passe on FF body.

well, because of the 1.6x focal length multiplier, you have to get a crop (EF-S, or similar from sigma/tokina/tamron) lens to get 10mm. No FF EF 10mm lens. the ef 16-35 is an ultrawide for FF, it will only be a normal lens on crop.

What do you think- would you invest in EF-S? :-/

 

[Jonathan Brady]

.........unless you plan on going FF in the very near future go ahead and get the 10-22 or another EF-S lens. You can still get a lot of use out of it and then put it up for sale, otherwise you will have missed opportunities in the meantime......

If you really want to save $$$, buy used from a reliable source like members on FM or POTN. You can find them around $450-500. You should be able to get just about what you paid for it since it won't depreciate as much when you resell it.

Consider buying used as cheap rental.........

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/board/10
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=14

 

[WilbaW]

For instance, if I do a MFA on a lens, it might be a good week of use before I feel confident with the change. This has a lot to do with the consistency of the system. New lenses after 2010 and the new 5D3 have a feedback loop to help this, but I digress.

Please digress some more. Details about this feedback loop? Documents?

 

[Freek07]

thank you all...well, by "big imvestment (in 10-22)" I meant "whether it's reasonable" as I'm considering FF (it's not 10€ or 50€ you can miss anytime)... I guess I'll just buy ultrawide crop lens

One of you sugested EOS-M... It seems a bit "small" and non-ergonomic :-$ I know, I know western take on small cameras, I read the dpreview interviews

Now I just have to check out the reviews (sigma 10-20 3.5 VS canon VS tamron)...

 

[jitteringjr]

It's a long but well worth it read:

Loading…

www.lensrentals.com

There is 5 parts to this: so google them all: 1, 2, 3a, 3b and 4

 

[Beserk]

If someone has a used one for sale locally at a good price, I'd pick it up in heart beat. This is an awesome lens. Or if you have the money for FF, just move up to that now. i did last year and I love it. I am fortunate I had the money for it, and now I think I'm ruined. I don't ever want to own a crop sensor camera again!

Stocks, bonds, real estates, etc. are investments. Lens are tools, not investments. You buy them when you need them.

I like what you say here

You trade them in when they are no longer useful to you. You will never get back what you paid.

Disagree with what you say here
I sold my 10-22mm in anticipation of moving up and i netted $100 profit on it.

 

[WilbaW]

It's a long but well worth it read:

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/07/autofocus-reality-part-1-center-point-single-shot-accuracy

There is 5 parts to this: so google them all: 1, 2, 3a, 3b and 4

Yeah, I thought that's where you would have got that. Roger makes his claim in 3b, but he has misunderstood the Ishikawa patent. Canon PD AF has always been a closed-loop control system, from the first EOS body in 1985.

 

[Warren Van Camp]

The Tokina 12-24 isn't too bad on a crop, and is usable from ~18-24 on FF.

 

[jitteringjr]

It's a long but well worth it read:

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/07/autofocus-reality-part-1-center-point-single-shot-accuracy

There is 5 parts to this: so google them all: 1, 2, 3a, 3b and 4

Yeah, I thought that's where you would have got that. Roger makes his claim in 3b, but he has misunderstood the Ishikawa patent. Canon PD AF has always been a closed-loop control system, from the first EOS body in 1985.

Maybe this was just poor wording on my part. So a few questions:

1. Do we know that Roget ever read the original patent? Or was he just making an assumption based on his test results and comparing them to the 2003 patent?

2. Do you agree that focus consistency has improved with the 5D3 and newer lenses?

3. What is the point of the rotation sensor in newer lenses?

I think what I should have said:

"New lenses after 2010 and the new 5D3 have an improvement on the feedback loop via a rotation sensor in the lens to help this, but I digress."

Your thoughts?

 

[WilbaW]

Maybe this was just poor wording on my part. So a few questions:

No worries.

1. Do we know that Roger ever read the original patent?

He does quote from it, so you'd hope so.

Or was he just making an assumption based on his test results and comparing them to the 2003 patent?

Patents are hard to read at the best of times, and the Canon patents I've read are very difficult, including that one. He has misunderstood a lot of ambiguous and convoluted text to mean that there was not in the past a feedback loop from the AF sensor to the AF controller, but it's simply proven that there always has been, so it's a waste of time trying to decode a patent about something else to answer that question.

2. Do you agree that focus consistency has improved with the 5D3 and newer lenses?

I don't know about the 5D3, but I do know the very first EOS camera and all in between PD AF in exactly the same fundamental way.

3. What is the point of the rotation sensor in newer lenses?

Same as it always has been, to know how far the focus mechanism has rotated. For instance, the 1987 service manual for the 50/1.8 talks about -

"Focusing ring travel (drive quantity)
This information indicates how much the focusing ring has been driven since the focus pulse counter was reset, and is indicated by the number of pulses produced by the focus pulse plate (chopper wheel)." (page II-4)

I think what I should have said:

"New lenses after 2010 and the new 5D3 have an improvement on the feedback loop via a rotation sensor in the lens to help this, but I digress."

Your thoughts?

It doesn't mean anything without knowing what's receiving the feedback. I'm sure the feedback the patent is talking about is from the contemporary equivalent of the 50/1.8's chopper, which goes to the controller within the lens, the one that responds to the commands from the body and translates them into control signals to the motor. I'm sure that technology has improved over the years (for instance, one of the merits of stepping motors is they shouldn't need an external measure of rotation, so you can do away with all that stuff), and that would help to make evolutionary improvements in lens AF performance.

It makes no sense to feedback rotation sensor output directly to the body, because that's about the low-level operation within the lens in a language the body doesn't understand. It doesn't matter whether that information does go to the body anyway, since the feedback that drives the process is from the AF sensor to the AF controller, and the angle of rotation of the motor shaft has nothing to do with that (though the speed of rotation does, since the AF sensor feedback is only used by the AF controller when the lens focus speed is not changing, but that comes back to the body as flags rather than rotation sensor output).

 

[Rakumi]

How about a used 5d2?