What's next for the Mama Bear of the OM-D series?

[al_in_philly]

Pardon me for dabbling in some mindless speculation. . .

Now that the E-M10 has virtually been released, and the E-M1 has been around for a few months, my mind has been wandering to what the replacement for the current "Mama Bear" of the series, the E-M5, will be like. My guess is that it will probably stay the same size and appearance, so as to differentiate it from not only the flagship E-M1, but also from the Sony A7 and Fuji XT-1, which match up in size more closely with the E-M1. But what will change? Again, I'm guessing, but I think any earth-shaking advancements will be held for the E-M1, at least at first, what we'll be seeing for the next E-M5 will be more evolutionary than revolutionary:

1. Either Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, or NFC connectivity
2. Focus Peaking
3. Better EVF
4. 1/8000 shutter
5. more focus points--and perhaps the ability to make each one smaller in area
6. the latest image processor, likely the True Pic VII.
7. perhaps the same level of weather sealing that found in the E-M1

But nothing like PD/CD AF, which will be reserved for the E-M1. Buffer size, continuous shooting speed, etc. will be left to differentiate it from the E-M1. Olympus will likely continue to market the E-M5 as a high-end enthusiast camera which is stylish and still significantly smaller than any APS-C or FF mirrorless offering.

Your thoughts?

 

[jalywol]

I'm thinking along the same lines as you are. The only thing that I wonder if they will do is if they wait til the end of this year to update it, maybe they will have a totally different sensor?

If not, then what I see them doing is some small ergonomic changes, Wifi, the same EVF as on the EM1, small focus box, good Mysets, focus peaking, water resistance, 5 axis IBIS, same image processor as EM1. I also don't think they will do PDAF on it.....I wonder if they will do electronic first curtain, though. That would be interesting....I also wonder if they could put a built in flash in it, as they have managed to do in the EM10.

It should have just enough up features to be a good choice over the EM10, but in the non-SLR style of body to make it desirable as a step up from the EM10...

-J

 

[DLBlack]

I will think it will be almost everything from the E-M1 but in a body about the same size as the current E-M5. It will get from the EM1 the EVF, the processor, the sensor, the OSPDAF, the smaller AF boxes, the wifi. It will not has as many buttons and direct controls. From the E-M10 it will get the pop-up flash. The E-M5 Mk II needs to compete with the new Fuji T-1.

Then when the E-M1 get replaced it will get the organic sensor, new faster processor and new faster AF.

Dave

 

[Sergey Borachev]

Pardon me for dabbling in some mindless speculation. . .

Now that the E-M10 has virtually been released, and the E-M1 has been around for a few months, my mind has been wandering to what the replacement for the current "Mama Bear" of the series, the E-M5, will be like. My guess is that it will probably stay the same size and appearance, so as to differentiate it from not only the flagship E-M1, but also from the Sony A7 and Fuji XT-1, which match up in size more closely with the E-M1. But what will change? Again, I'm guessing, but I think any earth-shaking advancements will be held for the E-M1, at least at first, what we'll be seeing for the next E-M5 will be more evolutionary than revolutionary:

1. Either Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, or NFC connectivity
2. Focus Peaking
3. Better EVF
4. 1/8000 shutter
5. more focus points--and perhaps the ability to make each one smaller in area
6. the latest image processor, likely the True Pic VII.
7. perhaps the same level of weather sealing that found in the E-M1

But nothing like PD/CD AF, which will be reserved for the E-M1. Buffer size, continuous shooting speed, etc. will be left to differentiate it from the E-M1. Olympus will likely continue to market the E-M5 as a high-end enthusiast camera which is stylish and still significantly smaller than any APS-C or FF mirrorless offering.

Your thoughts?

--
al
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alsphotography/

All good points, but it will also get:

- a new sensor with higher MP and higher IQ. M43 IQ has got stuck at the same level for too long. The E-M5 is 2.5 years old and that's how long the IQ has not improved. So, it is right for E-M5 replacement to get better sensor and IQ It will be about 3 years then, when the E-M5 replacement arrives. Long overdue, and even the new Olympus superzoom has 16MP even though it is a 1/2.3 inch sensor. So, it will be at least 20MP if not 24MP, or whatever the latest and greatest Sony sensor has. I agree that the E-M1 can remain the model with PDAF as it needs it for 43 lenses and also to stay as the flagship model.

- even better 5-axis IBIS than the E-M1. This is easy to see as we have faster and faster processor and therefore better response and performance, in addition to other improvements that are more directly related to IBIS technology. This is the one single feature, the most important selling point, that really distinguishes Olympus from all other mirrorless cameras. So, it cannot afford to rest on its laurels and have to keep pushing the envelop and keep delivering improvements, so as to stay ahead, and stay afloat. Without a better IBIS, it won't be too hard for Fuji or Sony to beat M43 cameras, except in lens size/weight. This is critical to Olympus' survival.

- It may also get other easy improvements, like dual card slots, a beefier dials and bigger/more responsive buttons, lock button for the dials, 3.5mm audio input, ....

 

[Anders W]

Pardon me for dabbling in some mindless speculation. . .

Now that the E-M10 has virtually been released, and the E-M1 has been around for a few months, my mind has been wandering to what the replacement for the current "Mama Bear" of the series, the E-M5, will be like. My guess is that it will probably stay the same size and appearance, so as to differentiate it from not only the flagship E-M1, but also from the Sony A7 and Fuji XT-1, which match up in size more closely with the E-M1. But what will change? Again, I'm guessing, but I think any earth-shaking advancements will be held for the E-M1, at least at first, what we'll be seeing for the next E-M5 will be more evolutionary than revolutionary:

1. Either Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, or NFC connectivity
2. Focus Peaking
3. Better EVF
4. 1/8000 shutter
5. more focus points--and perhaps the ability to make each one smaller in area
6. the latest image processor, likely the True Pic VII.
7. perhaps the same level of weather sealing that found in the E-M1

But nothing like PD/CD AF, which will be reserved for the E-M1. Buffer size, continuous shooting speed, etc. will be left to differentiate it from the E-M1. Olympus will likely continue to market the E-M5 as a high-end enthusiast camera which is stylish and still significantly smaller than any APS-C or FF mirrorless offering.

Your thoughts?

--
al
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alsphotography/

All good points, but it will also get:

- a new sensor with higher MP and higher IQ. M43 IQ has got stuck at the same level for too long. The E-M5 is 2.5 years old and that's how long the IQ has not improved. So, it is right for E-M5 replacement to get better sensor and IQ It will be about 3 years then, when the E-M5 replacement arrives.

It's actually 2 rather than 2.5 years since the E-M5 was announced and more like 1.5 years since it started to become practically available for purchase. But I agree that it is time to see something done on the sensor side. Among the things on my wish list, all involving the sensor, are the following:

First-curtain electronic shutter and/or electronic shutter (preferably a global one) to get rid of the shutter-shock problem once and for all.

Arbitrarily low ISOs (so that we can make full use of the DoF advantage of the smaller sensor).

Higher pixel count.

And of course a bit better quantum efficiency and lower read noise is never out of the way.

Long overdue, and even the new Olympus superzoom has 16MP even though it is a 1/2.3 inch sensor. So, it will be at least 20MP if not 24MP, or whatever the latest and greatest Sony sensor has. I agree that the E-M1 can remain the model with PDAF as it needs it for 43 lenses and also to stay as the flagship model.

- even better 5-axis IBIS than the E-M1. This is easy to see as we have faster and faster processor and therefore better response and performance, in addition to other improvements that are more directly related to IBIS technology. This is the one single feature, the most important selling point, that really distinguishes Olympus from all other mirrorless cameras. So, it cannot afford to rest on its laurels and have to keep pushing the envelop and keep delivering improvements, so as to stay ahead, and stay afloat. Without a better IBIS, it won't be too hard for Fuji or Sony to beat M43 cameras, except in lens size/weight. This is critical to Olympus' survival.

- It may also get other easy improvements, like dual card slots, a beefier dials and bigger/more responsive buttons, lock button for the dials, 3.5mm audio input, ....

 

[Sergey Borachev]

Pardon me for dabbling in some mindless speculation. . .

Now that the E-M10 has virtually been released, and the E-M1 has been around for a few months, my mind has been wandering to what the replacement for the current "Mama Bear" of the series, the E-M5, will be like. My guess is that it will probably stay the same size and appearance, so as to differentiate it from not only the flagship E-M1, but also from the Sony A7 and Fuji XT-1, which match up in size more closely with the E-M1. But what will change? Again, I'm guessing, but I think any earth-shaking advancements will be held for the E-M1, at least at first, what we'll be seeing for the next E-M5 will be more evolutionary than revolutionary:

1. Either Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, or NFC connectivity
2. Focus Peaking
3. Better EVF
4. 1/8000 shutter
5. more focus points--and perhaps the ability to make each one smaller in area
6. the latest image processor, likely the True Pic VII.
7. perhaps the same level of weather sealing that found in the E-M1

But nothing like PD/CD AF, which will be reserved for the E-M1. Buffer size, continuous shooting speed, etc. will be left to differentiate it from the E-M1. Olympus will likely continue to market the E-M5 as a high-end enthusiast camera which is stylish and still significantly smaller than any APS-C or FF mirrorless offering.

Your thoughts?

--
al
http://www.flickr.com/photos/alsphotography/

All good points, but it will also get:

- a new sensor with higher MP and higher IQ. M43 IQ has got stuck at the same level for too long. The E-M5 is 2.5 years old and that's how long the IQ has not improved. So, it is right for E-M5 replacement to get better sensor and IQ It will be about 3 years then, when the E-M5 replacement arrives.

It's actually 2 rather than 2.5 years since the E-M5 was announced and more like 1.5 years since it started to become practically available for purchase. But I agree that it is time to see something done on the sensor side. Among the things on my wish list, all involving the sensor, are the following:

First-curtain electronic shutter and/or electronic shutter (preferably a global one) to get rid of the shutter-shock problem once and for all.

Arbitrarily low ISOs (so that we can make full use of the DoF advantage of the smaller sensor).

Higher pixel count.

And of course a bit better quantum efficiency and lower read noise is never out of the way.

Long overdue, and even the new Olympus superzoom has 16MP even though it is a 1/2.3 inch sensor. So, it will be at least 20MP if not 24MP, or whatever the latest and greatest Sony sensor has. I agree that the E-M1 can remain the model with PDAF as it needs it for 43 lenses and also to stay as the flagship model.

- even better 5-axis IBIS than the E-M1. This is easy to see as we have faster and faster processor and therefore better response and performance, in addition to other improvements that are more directly related to IBIS technology. This is the one single feature, the most important selling point, that really distinguishes Olympus from all other mirrorless cameras. So, it cannot afford to rest on its laurels and have to keep pushing the envelop and keep delivering improvements, so as to stay ahead, and stay afloat. Without a better IBIS, it won't be too hard for Fuji or Sony to beat M43 cameras, except in lens size/weight. This is critical to Olympus' survival.

- It may also get other easy improvements, like dual card slots, a beefier dials and bigger/more responsive buttons, lock button for the dials, 3.5mm audio input, ....

You are right, as usual, Anders. It's only 2 years and not 2.5 years for the E-M5. My fault. Not remembering facts correctly.

It's still a very long time for sensor quality to remain at the same level, even though the sensor in the E-M5 was very impressive then. Time for another impressive improvement, I say, when its replacement appears after 2.5 years.

 

[Art_P]

Pardon me for dabbling in some mindless speculation. . .

Now that the E-M10 has virtually been released, and the E-M1 has been around for a few months, my mind has been wandering to what the replacement for the current "Mama Bear" of the series, the E-M5, will be like. My guess is that it will probably stay the same size and appearance, so as to differentiate it from not only the flagship E-M1, but also from the Sony A7 and Fuji XT-1, which match up in size more closely with the E-M1. But what will change? Again, I'm guessing, but I think any earth-shaking advancements will be held for the E-M1, at least at first, what we'll be seeing for the next E-M5 will be more evolutionary than revolutionary:

1. Either Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, or NFC connectivity
2. Focus Peaking
3. Better EVF
4. 1/8000 shutter
5. more focus points--and perhaps the ability to make each one smaller in area
6. the latest image processor, likely the True Pic VII.
7. perhaps the same level of weather sealing that found in the E-M1

I'd expect the same WiFi, perhaps they'll tweak the app, add more control

Focus peaking of course

EVF? Maybe improved, maybe not... I tend to think they will reserve the better VF for the 1.

Again, I think the 1/8000 shutter will be top of the line only...

Image processor- same as E-M1, or perhaps improved... to go along w

A new sensor... slightly higher res and/or improved high ISO performance and/or higher DR

Same build, WS as the E-M5, full metal chassis reserved for the 1...

possible electronic shutter... would be a big plus

Depending on how effective the 3 axis IBIS turns out, I'm wondering if the 5 replacement might get 3 axis IBIS along w pop-up flash and no accessory port ... or stay the way it is now.

Dual card slots? I doubt that... maybe on the 1 MkII

Timeline? some are saying this fall, I say next spring... why? While the 5 has been out two years, the 1 is still recent, and a new sensor in the mid level would stomp on E-M1 sales...

So my guess would be 2015 for the 5, 2016 for the 1 and 10 refresh

 

[Paul De Bra]

Olympus is falling behind Panasonic in this area. Thinking of what could be improved to my E-M5 the way I use it the electronic first-curtain is needed the most. Perhaps also 1/8000s shutter like the E-P5 has. Built-in flash instead of the hideous small clip-on flash would also be nice.

Not that any of this would make me buy it. I have a habit of using a camera for 4 years on average before even considering upgrading. The E-M5 will soon reach 2 years, so my next camera will come out in 2016 at the earliest (unless the E-M5 breaks or gets stolen).

 

[GRinggold]

I believe that the M10 "IS" the new "MAMMA BEAR". With all the ILC's hitting the market, I believe that OLY had to make a (SLR) "look" camera in this price range. The "5" was well received and at the time had very little competition (SONY - with minimal lens options and a couple of smaller sensor alternatives) but the ILC market has heated up in a big way. There are LOTS of options at the <$1000 mark available today with sensor capabilities that may be more advantageous than the 5 axis stabilization offered by Oly. The M1 gets great reviews and the ability to use the 4/3 glass but it also carries a price tag that puts it in competition with quite a few great cameras with larger sensors (albeit most with with larger bodies).

The M1 is todays E1 (smaller more compact body, weather sealed, great lens options but with a sensor trailing the "consumer" market from a specification perspective). I still believe real world output with controlled lighting can land results similar to the larger higher pixel sensors in "MOST" situations.

While the E1 was the camera that sold me on being an Oly shooter (size with the grip, lenses and JPG output was perfect for my business), it definitely wasn't in the same league that its price forced it to compete in. JUST LIKE THE E-M1.

It looks as if OLY made a strategic marketing change in releasing cameras (or maybe the delays in R&D did it for them.

In the past, we got the BIG DOG E-1, followed by and E-300 & 500 series bodies followed by a 600 series that could have all been lumped into the same series as there were very few specifications that separated them (they just all LOOKED different). Their were a few home runs in the releases (live view which has become the standard in digital photography these days), but for the most part the entire groups specifications trailed its price lined competitors. Then came the E-3/5 that looked like the other big manufacturers top level cameras, but again trailed them from a specification standpoint.

AND THEN THEY WERE GONE.......

They did the same with the micro cameras, before we knew it, there were a multitude of cameras with basically the same specifications. Again, nice product with little competition in that market when initially released, but now that market is flooded with APS-C and now full frame cameras with similar pricing.

I would prefer that Oly push the E-M1 specification higher before releasing a tweener camera that overshadows it but costs less and then released a duplicated specification PRO body for more money as the competitions higher specified prosumer model. I was definitely confused with the strategy of the E-30 offering a better sensor then the E-3 and then being asked to pay top dollar or an E-5 that basically matched the specification at a price that could land you a significantly higher spec product from other manufacturers.

That strategy, made it very hard for retailers to push the product....and they subsequently dumped OLY.

 

[al_in_philly]

I believe that the M10 "IS" the new "MAMMA BEAR". With all the ILC's hitting the market, I believe that OLY had to make a (SLR) "look" camera in this price range. The "5" was well received and at the time had very little competition (SONY - with minimal lens options and a couple of smaller sensor alternatives) but the ILC market has heated up in a big way. There are LOTS of options at the <$1000 mark available today with sensor capabilities that may be more advantageous than the 5 axis stabilization offered by Oly. The M1 gets great reviews and the ability to use the 4/3 glass but it also carries a price tag that puts it in competition with quite a few great cameras with larger sensors (albeit most with with larger bodies).

The M1 is todays E1 (smaller more compact body, weather sealed, great lens options but with a sensor trailing the "consumer" market from a specification perspective). I still believe real world output with controlled lighting can land results similar to the larger higher pixel sensors in "MOST" situations.

While the E1 was the camera that sold me on being an Oly shooter (size with the grip, lenses and JPG output was perfect for my business), it definitely wasn't in the same league that its price forced it to compete in. JUST LIKE THE E-M1.

It looks as if OLY made a strategic marketing change in releasing cameras (or maybe the delays in R&D did it for them.

In the past, we got the BIG DOG E-1, followed by and E-300 & 500 series bodies followed by a 600 series that could have all been lumped into the same series as there were very few specifications that separated them (they just all LOOKED different). Their were a few home runs in the releases (live view which has become the standard in digital photography these days), but for the most part the entire groups specifications trailed its price lined competitors. Then came the E-3/5 that looked like the other big manufacturers top level cameras, but again trailed them from a specification standpoint.

AND THEN THEY WERE GONE.......

They did the same with the micro cameras, before we knew it, there were a multitude of cameras with basically the same specifications. Again, nice product with little competition in that market when initially released, but now that market is flooded with APS-C and now full frame cameras with similar pricing.

I would prefer that Oly push the E-M1 specification higher before releasing a tweener camera that overshadows it but costs less and then released a duplicated specification PRO body for more money as the competitions higher specified prosumer model. I was definitely confused with the strategy of the E-30 offering a better sensor then the E-3 and then being asked to pay top dollar or an E-5 that basically matched the specification at a price that could land you a significantly higher spec product from other manufacturers.

That strategy, made it very hard for retailers to push the product....and they subsequently dumped OLY.

I too got into m4/3 from a history of Olympus 4/3 shooting (and the C5050 before that). The problem with their 4/3 cameras is somewhat being revisited with the E-M1, now with the X-T1 and A7 cameras hitting the streets: the cameras got so big that they lost much of the size advantage they once had over competitors, while still delivering lesser IQ. The main reason why I never bought an E-3 or E-5 was that they were as big and heavy as their Canikon rivals, just with poorer low light autofocus and resolution. That is why the relatively petite E-M5 will likely still have a future in the OM-D line-up--it still exudes what m4/3 was initially all about. Today's announcement of Olympus' firmware update for the E-M5 is continuing testament of the company's intent to maintain this model series.

My guess is that the E-M1 will see the most improvements in its video capacities--the one area where the camera doesn't shine as brightly as some of its competitors. Given that it is intended to be a "professional level" camera, pro-level video is becoming more of an important criteria. Increasing the bit-rate of its video processing engine and timecode support in MOV(H.264) and AVCHD formats ought to be a priority as well as full 4K recording capability. Maybe even a pair of mini-XLR inputs, if they can squeeze them in somewhere. Going this route--plus the inevitable still photo upgrades--would allow the E-M1 to continue to be a viable professional camera, even as other manufacturers go mirrorless.

 

[azazel1024]

I dunno. At least based on price, I see pretty good differentiation.

E-M10 $799 body only

E-M5 Successor $999-1099 body only

E-M1 $1399 body only

As for specs, its pretty obviously what got cut on the E-M10. It doesn't have weather sealing. it doesn't have quite as high a drive speed (8 versus 9, which might matter to some), it has 3-axis instead of 5-axis stabalization. Yes it has a few "nicer" features, but that prodominately because it is new.

The E-M1, pretty easy to see all of the nice goodies that make it better than the E-M5 and E-M10.

If I were to take a guess, Oly WILL replace the E-M5 with true successor. I think the differentiation between the E-M10 and the E-M1, plus the price difference is just too much.

My "guess" is this.

The E-M6 will get the better EVF, most likely. That or, there might be a different EVF by the time the E-M6 comes along (my guess is this coming fall). I could see the new EVF being higher pixel count, but NOT larger than the current one (unlike the E-M1, which is both larger AND higher pixel count). Maybe something like a 2MP EVF (960x720x3), but same size. I have a hard time imaginging that this won't be upgraded in someway over the 1.44MP one in the E-M5 and E-M10.

I have no doubt it'll have the 1+MP rear LCD.

Wifi, of course.

I think it'll retain the 1/4000s shutter speed

I think the IBIS will be updated, per the E-M1

It'll deffinitely have a new sensor. Whether it'll "only" be the E-M1 sensor, with or without the PDAF, or not, no idea. It might be a brand new sensor, possibly higher MP count to "demo" it before the E-M1 successor gets it, maybe the next year, with improvements.

New imaging engine, Probably True Pic VIII and not True Pic VII.

It probably won't gain tons of new controls, though it might include the control mode switch that the E-M1 and EP-5 have.

It'll probably have some of the other "minor" features that the E-M1 and E-M10 have, maybe with refinements, like the auto brightness EVF control, disabling the EVF when the LCD is pulled out, possibly a few new tricks.

--------------------------------------

I think there'll still be clear differentiation. You want PDAF, get the high end OM-D. Want the best weather sealing, get the high end OM-D. You want 1/8000s shutter, get the high end OM-D. You want the biggest EVF around, get the high end OM-D. Want a better built in grip and the extra buttons and dial, get the high end OM-D. Even if the E-M5 replacement has a new an improved sensor over what is in the E-M1, likely wait a year or less, and the new high end model will have an even better sensor. Likely a more refined version of what the E-M5 replacement has, with PDAF added to boot.

At a guess to, the next high end OM-D is probably going to have both much better video features (Oly reps have already said that'l be a focus for them in the future and not an "added feature) and proably 4k video. The E-M5 replacement likely won't. It'll probably ship with the same 1080p30 24mbps mode that the E-M10 has and nothing better (maybe slightly refinements, like HIVEC might be added as an option by then, or possibly not).

So I think there will be plenty of clear product differentiation.

 

[azazel1024]

Overall I'd be rather sad and dissapointed if my only two options were an entry level body with LOTS of features missing that I really want, but at a nice price, or a pro level body with tons of features I really don't have a need for or want and a price that is just out of my league. I have no doubt an E-M5 replacement would be missing a couple of things that the pro body has that I'd still lust after some (like a 1/8000s shutter) and some features I just don't need, that the entry level body ommits.

'Tis life. However, it would be sad if the two options were the BMW 1 series and BMW 5 series, with no 3 series inbetween.