NEX-6 noise and vibration.

[Krispee57]

So after a twelve-year hiatus of using digital P&S cameras, I have essentially migrated from an Olympus OM1 and Olympus XA combination to a NEX-6.

I find the NEX-6 shutter very noisy (like, too noisy to use in a cathedral, and especially during a service or performance. Too noisy for candid close-up work without disturbing the subject). I also feel a fair bit of camera shake from the shutter release, yet there is no mirror flapping up and down.

Are these features of all mirror-less cameras? or

Are the known features of the NEX line or the NEX-6? or

Is there something wrong with my camera?

The XA was way quieter and smoother, how I would expect a mirror-less to perform. The OM1 was also quieter and smoother. After 35 years of camera development, thing seem to have gone backwards.

 

[blue_skies]

So after a twelve-year hiatus of using digital P&S cameras, I have essentially migrated from an Olympus OM1 and Olympus XA combination to a NEX-6.

I find the NEX-6 shutter very noisy (like, too noisy to use in a cathedral, and especially during a service or performance. Too noisy for candid close-up work without disturbing the subject). I also feel a fair bit of camera shake from the shutter release, yet there is no mirror flapping up and down.

Are these features of all mirror-less cameras? or

Are the known features of the NEX line or the NEX-6? or

Is there something wrong with my camera?

The XA was way quieter and smoother, how I would expect a mirror-less to perform. The OM1 was also quieter and smoother. After 35 years of camera development, thing seem to have gone backwards.

Congrats!

Neah, the shutter sound relates to the sensor size and max speed of the focal plane shutter. Only fixed lens cameras such as X100 or RX1 deploy an almost silent leaf shutter.

Make sure that you turn EFC on, this will half your sound and make the camera more responsive, with less shake.

 

[hyenadog]

So after a twelve-year hiatus of using digital P&S cameras, I have essentially migrated from an Olympus OM1 and Olympus XA combination to a NEX-6.

I find the NEX-6 shutter very noisy (like, too noisy to use in a cathedral, and especially during a service or performance. Too noisy for candid close-up work without disturbing the subject). I also feel a fair bit of camera shake from the shutter release, yet there is no mirror flapping up and down.

Are these features of all mirror-less cameras? or

Are the known features of the NEX line or the NEX-6? or

Is there something wrong with my camera?

The XA was way quieter and smoother, how I would expect a mirror-less to perform. The OM1 was also quieter and smoother. After 35 years of camera development, thing seem to have gone backwards.

the NEX seems pretty quiet compared to film SLR's i had ... you only have to listen to films of the time to hear how noisy many film cameras were

if you google the forum posts here you will pick up a discussion about whether the shutter noise is a sound sony have added to make it noisier or whether its the front curtain shutter etc

dont get an A7 though if you thenk the NEX is noisy .. now that is one noisy monster

 

[captura]

There actually are some completely silent cameras out there. Nikon 1 and OMD E-M1 just for starters, can operate on electronic first curtain shutter mode only.

 

[Krispee57]

Thanks for the reply. Obviously, I am disappointed that a modern camera physically handles poorer than my 35 year-old one (and I have yet to see a viewfinder on a DSLR that compares well). I guess Sony are relying on the Steady Shot to minimize camera shake from their poorly designed focal plane shutter. A bit like the camera also correcting for poor optics.

What is EFC? I cannot find that acronym in the menus.

 

[Krispee57]

Ah, figured out EFC = Front Curtain Shutter in the camera menu.

It was on. If I turn it off, I get a double clunk.

Dang, this is almost as noisy as my old Russian Zenit B; not good.

 

[Krispee57]

Thanks for the reply.

There were noisy and jumpy film SLRs, and there were quieter and smoother ones like the Olympus OM1, which I own, so is my standard for comparison. And the focal plane shutter alone was pretty quiet if I lifted the manually mirror first. As for movies, a good sound engineer will enhance/add the appropriate effect to make it sound "right".

It sounds that Sony has got lost in the electronic design of cameras, and forgotten about mechanical design requirements.

 

[Mel Snyder]

So after a twelve-year hiatus of using digital P&S cameras, I have essentially migrated from an Olympus OM1 and Olympus XA combination to a NEX-6.

I find the NEX-6 shutter very noisy (like, too noisy to use in a cathedral, and especially during a service or performance. Too noisy for candid close-up work without disturbing the subject). I also feel a fair bit of camera shake from the shutter release, yet there is no mirror flapping up and down.

Are these features of all mirror-less cameras? or

Are the known features of the NEX line or the NEX-6? or

Is there something wrong with my camera?

The XA was way quieter and smoother, how I would expect a mirror-less to perform. The OM1 was also quieter and smoother. After 35 years of camera development, thing seem to have gone backwards.

Just how old are you, and when's the last time you had your hearing checked? The OM1 I own with a recent mirror shock pad replacement is a higher-frequency, louder "clank!" with a small amount of mirror bounce sound afterwards. The NEX-6 I own, with the electronic front shutter engaged, makes a significantly quieter, lower-frequency "clunk!"

Furthermore, I used my NEX-6 during Christmas vespers at St. John the Divine this year, and with the 16mm pancake on it - you can see in the shot below how close I was to communion to get this frame-filler - it was WAY quieter than the annoying guy down the row with a LOUD Canon DSLR


So much for the NEX-6 being too noisy to use during a cathedral service.

I don't know how many forum members actually own an OM 1 or an XA, but I do. Later this week I will get a battery for my XA, dig out my db meter, and make a video showing the comparison between an OM 1, an NEX-6, an XA, a Leica M4P and a D7000. The XA with a tiny leaf shutter will be almost silent. Much to my surprise, my 32 year old Leica M4P isn't significantly quieter than my NEX-6. The NEX-6 is also quieter than my D7000.

And Steve - when Don (1prime) and I met with Henry (blue_skies) and tried his new A7, we were both amazed at how overblown the criticism of shutter noise is for that new camera. Definitely a bit louder than my NEX-6, but hardly the garage-door slam suggested here.




Too noisy for portraits? This Swiss shoe craftsman wasn't plussed at all by NEX shutter noise...


...and neither was my new grandson.

As for "vibration" - check the exposure times of the images here- also shot in a cathedral (actually, a very large Budapest church) - or those of the images shot handheld during this Russian Orthodox service in Prague: https://plus.google.com/photos/112030639630947309972/albums/5955953771404751137?banner=pwa. I just don't know what you're talking about.

Now, present your evidence I'm wrong.

 

[Krispee57]

Mel, you may be right, but it would be more my memory that is failing than my ears!

I am travelling, and getting to intimately know my 6-month old NEX-6 and do not have access to my old film cameras for direct comparison.

I did not know that the NEX contained a focal plane shutter, so was surprised at the level of shake and noise, especially since I am also carrying an RX100 to compare against hence the post. On the other hand, I do find myself in situations where I used to use the OM1, but hesitate with the NEX-6 due to its noise.

I was specific about the noise interfering when taking near candid pictures, not posed, when the subject expects noise. And when taking pictures in noise sensitive environment, that is an individual criteria, maybe I am more discriminating than most.

I was only commenting about the shake at this point. Now knowing that it is generated by a FPS (which is not as bad as mirror flap), I will know what to look for in my images. But I do not expect to see any problems since with variable ISO I can keep shutter speeds reasonable, the optical stabilization will reduce the effect, and I have a boat anchor of a lens attached (15-200 zoom) -although the mass is in the wrong place to counter FPS shake. It will be interesting to see if I can still hand hold a light prime lens at 1/8 sec with no stabilization.

I will look forward to seeing you noise measurements. I suggest you also measure the OM1 with the mirror lifted, which will then be FPS noise only.

 

[Mel Snyder]

Mel, you may be right, but it would be more my memory that is failing than my ears!

I am travelling, and getting to intimately know my 6-month old NEX-6 and do not have access to my old film cameras for direct comparison.

I did not know that the NEX contained a focal plane shutter, so was surprised at the level of shake and noise, especially since I am also carrying an RX100 to compare against hence the post. On the other hand, I do find myself in situations where I used to use the OM1, but hesitate with the NEX-6 due to its noise.

I was specific about the noise interfering when taking near candid pictures, not posed, when the subject expects noise. And when taking pictures in noise sensitive environment, that is an individual criteria, maybe I am more discriminating than most.

I was only commenting about the shake at this point. Now knowing that it is generated by a FPS (which is not as bad as mirror flap), I will know what to look for in my images. But I do not expect to see any problems since with variable ISO I can keep shutter speeds reasonable, the optical stabilization will reduce the effect, and I have a boat anchor of a lens attached (15-200 zoom) -although the mass is in the wrong place to counter FPS shake. It will be interesting to see if I can still hand hold a light prime lens at 1/8 sec with no stabilization.

I will look forward to seeing you noise measurements. I suggest you also measure the OM1 with the mirror lifted, which will then be FPS noise only.

Hi Krispee (I hate monikers)

I am a camera collector, so I have quite a collection against which I can test. My OM1 is at far left on the second shelf. My XA is on the 3rd shelf, just to the left of the right shelf support.



It's really hard to appreciate shutter sound in isolation, friend, because of the differences in sound frequency, duration and intensity. One must judge shutter sound just as one would use the camera - in hand, held against the face. Raising the mirror in the OM1 would not be realistic because one cannot compose and focus an SLR with the mirror up.

That's why I believe so many have been misled as to the actual sound intensity of the A7. Many saw a badly made video in which a voice-tailored mic was used as pickup - so of course, all frequencies within the voice range would be peaked, and those above and below rolled off. In person, it sounds much more muted - especially when directly compared with an NEX-6 and NEX-7, as Don (1prime) and Henry (blue_skies) also appreciate at our recent Sausalito get-together.

The one situation where the NEX-6 is really loud is in the panorama mode, when it sounds really awful - especially if you are paired with a sensitive "significant other" who recognizes the sound and shoots you "that look."


Yes, I know the horizon is tilted - but I had to shoot with the NEX held above my head, and the withering look from my girlfriend dissuaded me from a second shot. It was nothing like the hired photographers got, so the couple and their parents were delighted. Shot with my old (1981) 35mm f1.4 pre-asph Summilux.

And in deference to my partner, this straight show without the machine-gun panorama simulation is probably better:



Old cameras can, like old loves, appear superior to present gear. After struggling through the Grammys last night, I wish I could say I like the new better than the old - but I can't.

 

[monashee]

Isn't shutter shock primarily caused when the first curtain of the focal plane shutter hits the stop at the bottom of its travel? The sudden bang as the first curtain hits the stop can cause some shake before the second curtain has closed the shutter, thus affecting the exposure. If so, then using the electronic first curtain will eliminate the shake problem.

FWIW I have a 6 and have not noticed a shutter shock problem.

 

[captura]

Isn't shutter shock primarily caused when the first curtain of the focal plane shutter hits the stop at the bottom of its travel? The sudden bang as the first curtain hits the stop can cause some shake before the second curtain has closed the shutter, thus affecting the exposure. If so, then using the electronic first curtain will eliminate the shake problem.

FWIW I have a 6 and have not noticed a shutter shock problem.

The NEX-6 would normally have the EFCS (first curtain) engaged and therefore there would not be any SS. One of the main purposes of the introduction of EFCS, first with the NEX-5N I believe, was to eliminate SS.

 

[captura]

Now if you could somehow get all those cameras to fire off simultaneously, I'd bet that would be a real CLANK!

Steve

 

[Krispee57]

Hi Mel,

On my OM1 I would lift the mirror to shoot quietly, or minimize shake. I then shot semi-blind with an appreciation of the the lens coverage, or pre-focused and pre-framed the shot with the camera held against a post, wall, step etc. Anyway, I mention it as a genuine test of FPS v FPS and will show how much the mirror mechanism adds to the camera noise, and for me was a usable shooting option.

I agree about the machine gun effect of the NEX-6; that is a real head-turner in a crowd.

Nice camera collection, and I like the panorama "as is" because it places the maids in a horizontal row. If you had got the horizon level I think it would look as if everything else was on a slope.

 

[1prime]

Mel, you may be right, but it would be more my memory that is failing than my ears!

I am travelling, and getting to intimately know my 6-month old NEX-6 and do not have access to my old film cameras for direct comparison.

I did not know that the NEX contained a focal plane shutter, so was surprised at the level of shake and noise, especially since I am also carrying an RX100 to compare against hence the post. On the other hand, I do find myself in situations where I used to use the OM1, but hesitate with the NEX-6 due to its noise.

I was specific about the noise interfering when taking near candid pictures, not posed, when the subject expects noise. And when taking pictures in noise sensitive environment, that is an individual criteria, maybe I am more discriminating than most.

I was only commenting about the shake at this point. Now knowing that it is generated by a FPS (which is not as bad as mirror flap), I will know what to look for in my images. But I do not expect to see any problems since with variable ISO I can keep shutter speeds reasonable, the optical stabilization will reduce the effect, and I have a boat anchor of a lens attached (15-200 zoom) -although the mass is in the wrong place to counter FPS shake. It will be interesting to see if I can still hand hold a light prime lens at 1/8 sec with no stabilization.

I will look forward to seeing you noise measurements. I suggest you also measure the OM1 with the mirror lifted, which will then be FPS noise only.

Hi Krispee (I hate monikers)

I am a camera collector, so I have quite a collection against which I can test. My OM1 is at far left on the second shelf. My XA is on the 3rd shelf, just to the left of the right shelf support.



It's really hard to appreciate shutter sound in isolation, friend, because of the differences in sound frequency, duration and intensity. One must judge shutter sound just as one would use the camera - in hand, held against the face. Raising the mirror in the OM1 would not be realistic because one cannot compose and focus an SLR with the mirror up.

That's why I believe so many have been misled as to the actual sound intensity of the A7. Many saw a badly made video in which a voice-tailored mic was used as pickup - so of course, all frequencies within the voice range would be peaked, and those above and below rolled off. In person, it sounds much more muted - especially when directly compared with an NEX-6 and NEX-7, as Don (1prime) and Henry (blue_skies) also appreciate at our recent Sausalito get-together.

The one situation where the NEX-6 is really loud is in the panorama mode, when it sounds really awful - especially if you are paired with a sensitive "significant other" who recognizes the sound and shoots you "that look."


Yes, I know the horizon is tilted - but I had to shoot with the NEX held above my head, and the withering look from my girlfriend dissuaded me from a second shot. It was nothing like the hired photographers got, so the couple and their parents were delighted. Shot with my old (1981) 35mm f1.4 pre-asph Summilux.

And in deference to my partner, this straight show without the machine-gun panorama simulation is probably better:



Old cameras can, like old loves, appear superior to present gear. After struggling through the Grammys last night, I wish I could say I like the new better than the old - but I can't.

Mel is correct about the A7 negligible shutter noise. Henry pulled out his A7 and shot it off, the camera to be specific. Yes, there was a shutter click. I asked the "professor" about it, and he explained it is an actual shutter and yes it hits bottom. But will it bother the shooter and subject much. No, as Mel also said, I also don't think it's a big deal. The A7 looks like a great camera, but for those of us invested in E lenses, it might be have to be a deferred satisfaction!

--
1prime

 

[Craig Gillette]

I do think that the NEX-6 seems to sound noisy compared to some cameras, like my old Fuji S602 as an example. But that's going back to a time where I found it remarkably quiet compared to a typical film slr. And then there were the ghastly sounds that emerged from the various cameras which self-wound, perhaps frame to frame but even more disturbing, when they rewound a whole roll back into the canister.

I think we forget that at times, we may be more sensitive to some noise than others and that when a camera is right up to our face, it may seem louder than it might to others not too far away.

However, I actually happened to have been in a cathedral not too long ago with my NEX-6 - mid-day on a Saturday afternoon. So I checked to see if there was any indication that people were disturbed by my shooting. There was maybe a dozen or fewer people in the nave at any given time, several photographers amongst them. I was experimenting with the NEX-6 so besides single shots, I also shot several in camera HDRs and even, IIRC, a couple of MFNR shots, which rap of three unevenly spaced shots or 5 quick shots. I just plopped through my lr gallery and find none of them appear to have caused anyone to turn and look towards me. I think ripping off 3 or 5 rapid shots with my D200 would have been far more disruptive.

I will admit to being a bit uncomfortable about this but it also bothered me as I walked around the altar area that my shoes squeaked. There is a difference, I think, in shooting in a church or other religious edifice that seems to call for more quiet, more discretion, and more respect. However, as in a performance venue or church service, there are probably times and places that can be suited to using a camera as there are moments best left undisturbed. I would feel the same way about the use of flash, pre-flash or some of the rangefinding devices as well.

 

[captura]

The original NEX-3 and NEX-5 were very much noisier, not having an electronic first curtain shutter.

 

[captura]

Ah, figured out EFC = Front Curtain Shutter in the camera menu.

It was on. If I turn it off, I get a double clunk.

Dang, this is almost as noisy as my old Russian Zenit B; not good.

EFCS is there to prevent shutter shock. It is a well-designed system which cuts down on the noise. And most people consider the shutter not to be noisy.

 

[Mel Snyder]

I do think that the NEX-6 seems to sound noisy compared to some cameras, like my old Fuji S602 as an example. But that's going back to a time where I found it remarkably quiet compared to a typical film slr. And then there were the ghastly sounds that emerged from the various cameras which self-wound, perhaps frame to frame but even more disturbing, when they rewound a whole roll back into the canister.

I think we forget that at times, we may be more sensitive to some noise than others and that when a camera is right up to our face, it may seem louder than it might to others not too far away.

However, I actually happened to have been in a cathedral not too long ago with my NEX-6 - mid-day on a Saturday afternoon. So I checked to see if there was any indication that people were disturbed by my shooting. There was maybe a dozen or fewer people in the nave at any given time, several photographers amongst them. I was experimenting with the NEX-6 so besides single shots, I also shot several in camera HDRs and even, IIRC, a couple of MFNR shots, which rap of three unevenly spaced shots or 5 quick shots. I just plopped through my lr gallery and find none of them appear to have caused anyone to turn and look towards me. I think ripping off 3 or 5 rapid shots with my D200 would have been far more disruptive.

I will admit to being a bit uncomfortable about this but it also bothered me as I walked around the altar area that my shoes squeaked. There is a difference, I think, in shooting in a church or other religious edifice that seems to call for more quiet, more discretion, and more respect. However, as in a performance venue or church service, there are probably times and places that can be suited to using a camera as there are moments best left undisturbed. I would feel the same way about the use of flash, pre-flash or some of the rangefinding devices as well.

"There was maybe a dozen or fewer people in the nave at any given time..."

There are places in many cathedrals where the acoustics - either by design or accident - tends to amplify even a whisper. One can listen for those places and know that sounds from there will likely echo.

I agree about discretion in houses of worship. Alas, those in Europe are being over-run by nouveau-riche Chinese tourists who are loud and disrespectful. They are led by loud guides and are obsessed with posing, hands on religious objects and icons, without regard to even those praying in front of them. They feign not being able to read English or international signage. Many come in toting D4s with big flash units and enough lenses to stock the Canon camera counter at B&H.

In one cathedral near Salzburg, I discovered signs on the icons in Chinese telling them "don't touch." In Budapest, they ignored signs and guards around the crown jewels in Parliament not to take photos. It seems the Eastern European countries are afraid to chastise Chinese tour groups for fear of losing their business. I always visibly drop a few Euros into a collection box, express my wonderment to the guard or monk watching the box - and then, thank them upon leaving. I'm trying my best to neutralize the increasing instinct of these places to ban cameras.

And so, our little Sony clicks are unlikely to be noticed.

 

[1prime]

"There was maybe a dozen or fewer people in the nave at any given time..."

There are places in many cathedrals where the acoustics - either by design or accident - tends to amplify even a whisper. One can listen for those places and know that sounds from there will likely echo.

I agree about discretion in houses of worship. Alas, those in Europe are being over-run by nouveau-riche Chinese tourists who are loud and disrespectful. They are led by loud guides and are obsessed with posing, hands on religious objects and icons, without regard to even those praying in front of them. They feign not being able to read English or international signage. Many come in toting D4s with big flash units and enough lenses to stock the Canon camera counter at B&H.

In one cathedral near Salzburg, I discovered signs on the icons in Chinese telling them "don't touch." In Budapest, they ignored signs and guards around the crown jewels in Parliament not to take photos. It seems the Eastern European countries are afraid to chastise Chinese tour groups for fear of losing their business. I always visibly drop a few Euros into a collection box, express my wonderment to the guard or monk watching the box - and then, thank them upon leaving. I'm trying my best to neutralize the increasing instinct of these places to ban cameras.

And so, our little Sony clicks are unlikely to be noticed.

Mel, This is off photography, but on reading your comment above, I thought how fortunate I was to spend two periods in the '60s prayerfully inspired in Europe from Bavarian hilltop chapels to magnificent urban cathedrals. I used to leave my room by 6am to attend Mass and get breakfast in the town's or city's farmer market. The milk was still warm and so was the welcome. Don