Will the snobbery eventually go away?

[John Miles]

In the early days of this Panasonic forum there developed a wonderful camaraderie over cameras that were fresh, innovative and breaking new ground in the camera world. These were the early FZ's.

In those days the people who bought these cameras were keen to talk and discuss their photography, but also almost uniquely possess no sense of camera snobbery or ill will toward others and their efforts in taking photographs.

The kit was great, but not in the scope of the gear heads and boasters. The kit was new, operating on a knife edge of performance; needing an intense exchange of discussion and samples to find all sorts of hidden corners of performance.

That very special environment, this Panasonic forum, persists to this day; but I sense that it is under threat. Panasonic has lost its edge in the camera world. It courts the attention of the gear heads and craves the gold from the lens change cameras. And when it produces great cameras for this forum, for some it stops developing them.

We are growing quiet here. The upgrades are diminishing and the designs less daring. Outside the scope of this forum camera designs are changing and evolving; gradually eating away at our population. Fuji and Nikon are hammering on the FZ door. They are nearly there with true replacements of the FZ50, but their forums are not so pleasant places to be. The snobby gear heads look down on the lowly innocent questions, and novices can receive harsh treatment at the hands of those battling for title of the sharpest or wittiest retort.

But.

We are still here. We might be starving of new gear to investigate or discuss, but we are still here. And around us the cameras approach in design those that we once cherished. Panasonic retains a good standing in camera production, but can do more for us. It can innovate but concentrates on the M4/3 at the moment. The DSLR world will soon decant off to be the equipment of the die hard enthusiast. And I wonder if with it the snobbery will vanish? It might be we don't need this forum any more. It might be that many other forums become populated with similar folk. It might be that this Panasonic forum loses its unique popularity.

:-|

Ah what a load of tosh. Merry Christmas everyone. I raise my glass and toast - The Panasonic Compact Camera Talk Forum; and all who sail in her. Hurrahhhh - hurrahhh - hurrahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

[Hic] [pass out]

 

[samualson]

Well imo the World has been going down hill in a big way and that's unfortunate , the morals have disappeared to a large degree and people just don't treat each other very well for the most part.

Rudeness and criticism are commonplace and the younger generation don't know the definition of respect .

That being said the Panasonic forum regulars constantly request things and ideas so i don't know how you can say they aren't active.

What is true and unfortunate is the focus only on Pani's top tier camera's and not giving any discussion time to the lower end models , this has been the norm forever.

As for other manufactures catching up , they are all competitive but Pani has been right at the top with their flagship FZ model for years.

All you got to do is read all the reviews from a variety of sources and it's always Pani or Canon although there are trolls that invade the forum and will say and do anything to prove otherwise lol.

I think we all know who they or he is , if Pani wasn't at the top you wouldn't see any of them , plain and simple.

 

[Me Tarzan]

John, you're so right. Things continually change. What sticks out to me is that everyone wants to be an armchair photo mastermind locked in Doctor Evil's body.

I also agree that there's lots of snobbery, and I believe that there are even more people who enjoy being flat-out ugly, rude, abusive and at times, verbally violent. In their idiocy, it's their 15 minutes of fame, I suppose. They type things they'd never get away with saying in public. I think that the majority of these individuals aren't much in the real world, and acting superior online is their way of elevating their self-confidence. Who knows what the situation is when one is dealing with a sack of nuts.

Also, some nuts won't quit pounding the beat until they get everyone to say that they are right. Stubborn as jack asses. Most infiltrate forums reserved for specific cameras that they don't even own, and they rudely and ignorantly tout that THEIR camera is best. Pests. The negative side is that newbies often take the stink bait. When they do, they may spend weeks or months locked in experimentation before they realize that the pest didn't know what they were braying about.

And all this pixel peeping. During the printing phase, any minute issues with images is generally unseen by the human eye. People sitting at their computers, blowing up images to Godzilla size, and then arguing their point or telling other people that their camera sucks is a poor waste of everyone's time.

And a lot of these nuts think their images are better than those of famous photographers. If that were true, they'd be out shooting and bringing home the bacon so mama could spend it all, right?

I've seen a lot of old heads flair up at the drop of a pin, and a lot of young people who have some maturing to do. When both collide, only Marshall Dillon can fix things.

It's useless to hope things will return to a harmonious mood. But one can always try.

Happy holidays, John.

 

[danielsonkin]

I agree, John - we are still here, tried and true. The panny forum is still a very special gathering place, IMO. I was gone for six months or so due to other demands on my time, but coming back has felt good. A lot of the old-timers are still around and the new people are just as positive and helpful. I wish you and yours a very happy holiday season as well. See you in 2014 (if not before then).

Daniel

PS: I wanted to thank you for inspiring me to pull out the ol' FZ50 and start shooting with it again. I forgot what a great camera it is!

--
http://danielsonkin.smugmug.com/

 

[Jack Brandt217]

well spoken John. This forum has deteriorated a bit since I joined it in 2006 but I think it's still the best of the lot with people like you and several others making it still the most sane forum on the DPR group.

Jack

 

[kkardster]

Bah, humbug.

Just kidding! I too have noticed the significant drop in traffic on this forum. While some type of post used to occur at least every 10 minutes, there are now times when the latest post was over an hour ago! And when we can actually see the "Top posters in this forum" bar graphs (I can't at the moment), they're much shorter than they were just a few months ago. We can blame Rudy's move to the dark side and recent illnesses for some members, but that's not the real reason.

We are aware that the FZ users are a large part of this population, and the somewhat disappointing FZ70 and lack of an FZ200 refresh both contribute to a drop in traffic. [There's nothing new for Joms! ;-) ] We all agree that Panasonic has hit a home run with the FZ200 and they are still selling well, giving Panasonic pause as the competition plays catch-up. Let's all hope that Panny is taking advantage of this additional time to truly knock our socks off with a new FZ model. Then we'll see activity pick up - including slings of arrows from competition fanboys - as Panasonic fights to remain king of the hill.

Going a bit off topic (sorry!),

Yes, the competition is responding. Most continue to compete on salable specs like zoom X-factor and megapixels, which appeal to the masses. Panasonic has been forced to join that battle and did well by at least meeting the reach of the competition while bettering them on X-factor by also going wider - kudos to Panasonic for firing back. Sony and Olympus have responded to the FZ200 by offering constant f/2.8 cameras with bigger sensors (and much bigger price tags), though with much less reach, making them an "almost" replacement for many who will wait to see what they come up with next. And if you have the jing, Olympus taunts us with their OM-D line while Fuji continues its mission as the sole source for manual superzoomers. However, none of the competition has come close to the FZ200's wealth of features anywhere near its price point.

So the question becomes, How will Panasonic respond? As I already noted, an FZ200 refresh could be one way and would be very welcome to members of this forum. Perhaps it's time for the whiz-bang "do-it-all" [for most] camera that many believe is possible [but would cannibalize more lucrative interchangeable lens sales]. (I've never bought that caveat - I simply can't believe that all camera makers would collude to protect ILC sales if there's the real possibility of cornering the market for a large segment of potential camera buyers.)

The [possibly] sad truth is that if Panasonic doesn't respond in kind, their competition will/is. My first digital camera was a Kodak and I didn't shed a tear when I upgraded to my first Panasonic (simple DMC-LZ7, purchased to document installation work) and then added the FZ150 and FZ200 for personal use. True, my Panasonic camera history is not as checkered as many others, but that doesn't make me any less of a Panasonic enthisiast and I will no doubt continue in that light so long as Panasonic continues to give me reason. Back in the film days I was a staunch supporter of Olympus and their diminuative [for the times] OM series of SLRs featuring Off-the-Film (OTF) metering; if Panasonic drops the ball, I could end up going full circle should my FZ200 ever fail!

--
Bruce
You learn something new every time you press the shutter

 

[GMACNEIL]

Greetings. I agree with what you are saying here, and I have long enjoyed the friendly tone of this particular forum. It seems that the energy and enthusiasm expressed here corresponds to the introduction of new cameras. (Just consider how much chatter there was about the new FZ200 and how it would stack up against the "nearly perfect" FZ150.) Every once in a while a thread will include some harsh comments, but overall the spirit of the forum has remained positive.

Unlike the majority of posters here, I've stayed away from the FZ series. I have a Nikon DSLR and a Panasonic micro four-thirds along with my collection of TZ and ZS cameras. I am somewhat proficient with these (probably going back to my Olympus OM-1 firm days). I don't do a lot of post-processing and I don't do much pixel peeping. I've found that I really like working with the ZS series. A lot of my shots are taken while on treks or camping excursions, so they are done quickly. (I am not an "automatic" shooter, but I really like the idea that I can adjust the ZS without thinking much about it.) Even the FZ cameras are larger than I want to carry on the belt of my pack, so the ZS cameras better-suit my needs.

Why have I included the previous paragraph? Simply because the snobbery John mentions can pervade even this happy forum. Beyond Erik and Daniel, there aren't many contributors who champion cameras other than the FZs. Granted, I need to step-up myself. I'll try to be a more-active and more-positive member in 2014.

Cheers to all the pleasant folks here!

 

[Vandyu]

John, much of what you said I must agree with as far as gear snobbery and some of the other forums being less inviting. When I bought my Nikon D80 several years ago when it was the latest and greatest, I felt welcome in the Nikon forum. I noticed, though, that there were posters who seemed to thrive on personal attacks and criticism and vying for the award of most opinionated user. When the D90 was introduced, my new cam became a dinosaur in their view.

I rarely go there now. This is the forum where I've spent countless hours enjoying reading posts, exchanging ideas, and making friends across the globe. But, lately I've noticed that the forum is slowing down and something is changing. I'd say since the introduction of the FZ70 as this year's entry in the FZ lineup. Many of us find this camera acceptable, but not particularly interesting. For me, it's not on the "gotta have" list, as my FZ150 is a better option and I already have that one. Sure, I'd probably swap for the FZ200, but just don't feel like I can dedicate $400 for that right now and that price would be a bargain. Too many other things on the must buy list.

I hope not all of the regulars will disappear into the Sony or Olympus forums, or possibly Nikon or Canon or M4/3. But, people do like to get new gadgets around the holidays, so that may well happen.

All I can say is, "If you're gonna leave, drop by once in a while and let us know your new address!" Oh, and just so you know, the place really won't be the same without you!

 

[windmillgolfer]

There is much truth in your post John. The arrival of a new enthusiast model can stimulate a renewed spurt of shooting, discussion and analysis but, I hope, we can continue to enjoy many high quality, interesting and entertaining images from members. After all, the existing LX and FZ, plus the handy and always ready ZS, series are still plenty good enough. We just need the opportunity to get that shutter-finger going. In the UK, at least, the weather and daylight hours have reduced opportunities somewhat :-( I look forward to getting out again ASAP - son's house renovations and Christmas permitting.

 

[GeraldW]

I doubt it will. There's always someone who can't help trying to "one-up" everyone else. Looking back in history, there has always been people like that - elitists.

On the other hand, this forum is an island of civility compared to most of the others. Here, if I ask for help, it is forthcoming, and most often graciously offered. If I offer an opinion, nobody writes to tell me I'm an idiot. I do own a couple of Panasonics, and have had several more in the past; but the forum here makes me want to own more. It's a pleasant place to come; but it's also a treasure trove of good information. And just look at the cooperation that was evident when we were all trying to figure out how best to set our FZ200's.

Panasonic may be favoring 4/3 over fixed lens models. But they are a "for profit" company, and have to look after the bottom line. Otherwise, in a few years, we'll talk about Panasonic cameras in the same way we talk about Contax.

I've often thought that civilization is a thin veneer coated over our baser nature. In a lot of places, that veneer is wearing very thin. I'm not a terribly religious man; but I did want my children to grow up in a church environment. Why? Because the major religions of this world all have codes of behavior and I believe that's where that veneer gets applied. It's where we get our ethics and morals, and the basis of most of our laws.

One thing's for certain. I'll be here a lot longer.

 

[Jerry045]

John:

I see much less snobbery here than any other forum. Still you will never see the end of the persons that just paid a bunch of $$$$ for their choice of camera. Nobody wants to admit they "bought the wrong one". There will always be folks trying to claim their pixels are better than everybody else.

But lets face it, no camera does everything best. They all have their niches. Fortunately there is much less "out do-manship" here. (I just made that word up!!)

I am inspired to learn how to take better pictures from the great posts here. I don't care which camera you used. Often one asks for settings to optimize picture quality. This is freely offered here. We drown in the vast number of combinations available in our set-up menus.

In my many years of haunting this forum, I have not seen any attitude to disparage a lesser camera model. I have often lamented upon the paucity of postings of cameras like the FZ70 or FZ60. What few postings there are have certainly shown that they can produce excellent images. So why are so few examples present? It certainly has not been from discouragement on this site.

Our cameras are just tools. The person doing the framing and pushing the button has more effect on making a good photo than the hardware.

And for the record John, I think the FZ50 is a terrific camera (even if I did swap mine for a FZ150).

 

[Jerrich]

I enjoy the cordiality here and plan to be around a good while. Back when i haunted the Fuji forum and the S100fs was their top dog (2008?), I saw members get banned for their caustic attitude and posts! As a fairly new Panny owner, I don't see any of that here. Merry Christmas to all. We're all in it together.

JR

 

[kkardster]

I doubt it will. There's always someone who can't help trying to "one-up" everyone else. Looking back in history, there has always been people like that - elitists.

True. And in the camera world, many of these are the "full frame" advocates who for some reason feel that 35mm sensor size is the holy grail for digital photography. I'm actually old enough to remember when the paltry 35mm camera was analogous to today's "pinhead sensor" cameras. I actually hate the notion of that silly "full frame" marketing term becoming the "standard" by which others should be judged - and that anything smaller must be wholly inferior. It's a bit ironic to me that what was once judged as the inferior sensor size [back in the film days] has somehow become the cat's meow of digital photography. I somewhat understand the need to differentiate 35mm digital cameras from 35mm film cameras, but it's silly today that one would expect any camera mention [outside of certain very small circles] to not be digital. We should call a spade a spade and a 35mm sensor a 35mm sensor.

I believe that some of this snobbery is related to the use of 35mm equivalents. I'd venture to guess that the majority of people today have never used a 35mm camera and therefore have no personal reference to 35mm "standards". Those in the know can be a bit condescending at times - especially if you post into the wrong forum! [By that, I mean likely posting in the right forum but with the wrong "audience".]

And going way off topic this time...

Personally, I'd like to see standardized camera and lens specifications that do not rely on [archaic though now becoming relevant again via "full-frame"] relative comparison against an arbitrary "standard". Those who aren't familiar with 35mm photography shouldn't be expected to know the difference between a 200mm and 600mm equivalent lens any more than expecting a 35mm advocate to know what a 4.5 to 84mm lens might provide for a 1/1.7" sensor [without having to convert to his "native 35mm tongue". Binoculars don't relay on arbitrary standards for direct comparison, why can't camera lenses? Note that I've stated this before and been flamethrown as some sort of heretic - but ion the end their reasons always boil down to mere familiarity for them.

Same goes for other camera features - like tying flash firing to the shutter opening or closing to SLR "curtains" [1st curtain, 2nd curtain] when many cameras with this capability don't use curtains at all! It's a simple misnomer holding on to the past and not truly descriptive of its purpose. Some day students will be asking "Whats a curtain? and their instructor will likely respond with "I don't know - it's just a term we've always used".

Don't get me wrong - I'm a realist who understands this will never happen - I'm just glad I owned and used 35mm SLRs and thus I do understand the terminology.

Oh, and while I'm at it, since we're stuck with today's zoom lens specs including Zoom Factor, lets at least add Magnification Factors so the neophyte can better understand telephoto capabilities. Many people believe that a bigger zoom factor means you can zoom in "closer". For example, since the Panasonic DMC-FZ70 has a 60X zoom factor, many believe that it can zoom in closer than the comparable Canon SX50 HS with its relatively paltry 50X zoom, while both actually max out at the same effective focal length. [Yes, I see the irony there of me using EFL!!!]

--
Curmudgeonly,

Bruce
You learn something new every time you press the shutter

 

[Erik Ohlson]

I joined a local Camera Club and saw basically the same thing you are talking about - it's really no fun to sit around being sneered at by a bunch of folks who think having $$$$ cameras and 20+ pounds of lenses make them "better" than we small camera types.

So I attended a couple of meetings & won't bother to renew.

This forum will do fine substituting for a Club, just as it substitutes for Camera magazines!

Rock on, Guys!







--
"Measure wealth not by things you have but by things for which you would not take money"
www.flickr.com/ohlsonmh/ [email protected]

 

[AnalogJ]

Boy, that is a loaded discussion topic.

But for me, it's about taking great photographs. Period. Knowing that there are limitations with regard to camera size, zoom size, etc., there are some great cameras at different price points. To me, Panasonic hit a home run with its LX7, yet most here are looking for the larger sensor. Okay, but in a small package, there are drawbacks to a smaller sensor for physical reasons.

I still prefer the look of film, but it's very hard to keep that up if you're an amateur photographer like I am. There is at least one advantage to digital, and that is to be able to immediately check your work. But ultimately, I prefer film. I prefer the look of a great movie print on film stock rather than digital as well.

You use to be able to get a really excellent film camera for under $200 and that was partly because you had a 35mm film negative. Nowadays, that gets you a sensor a fraction of the price.

Regardless, like the audio forums I also read, it's about the music. Does a system allow the music to sing. I'm not interested in the newest and latest gadget. I'm a two-channel guy, I think analog reproduction sounds far more musical than digital reproduction, and I sit a short distance from and between the speakers and listen to the performance. I notice great masterings allow me to get closer to the performance, so I notice that.

Here, I find posts of extreme macro work, or someone's trip to Italy far more interesting than the gadgets. I do occasionally ask questions and/or read about how to get the best performance out of my LX7. And I get some awesome photos.

I don't understand those who need to buy a new camera every year. I want a great camera that doesn't go obsolete. If I outgrow it, I want to pass it onto someone else. Personally, I think if there were no further improvements in cameras EVER, we could get on with merely taking photos and sharing the art.

 

[sherman_levine]

Boy, that is a loaded discussion topic.

I still prefer the look of film, but it's very hard to keep that up if you're an amateur photographer like I am. There is at least one advantage to digital, and that is to be able to immediately check your work. But ultimately, I prefer film. I prefer the look of a great movie print on film stock rather than digital as well.

Have you looked at the DXO Filmpack product?

Sherm

 

[Timj351]

I have considered joining a camera club on several occasions but decided I probably wouldn't be very comfortable in one either. Ever since I bought my first Pany, I have enjoyed this forum and find it to be the most friendly. Most members here realize that photos are about more than the number of pixels. There are still disagreements, and probably always will, but they usually turn into group hugs in the end. Overall it is pretty special but it is sad that this is the exception rather than the rule. A few weeks ago I was defending the forums on DPR in a conversation and saying that it's about getting used to people and sometimes dealing with language barriers, but recently my positive outlook and patience has been wearing a little thin. I'm just amazed at many of the inconsiderate comments in other forums. All I can do is try to contribute in a more positive way myself.

It was a little funny that when I first got my little Pany FP8 I was quite excited about it and I came here expecting to participate in some discussions about it but found virtually nothing. I quickly learned that is the case with many of the more ordinary consumer cameras. There are just so many of them and some that many of us consider to be gems fall through the cracks. So I am realizing that it is a good thing to remind readers about some of these fine cameras and what makes them special to us. There are a lot of new members that are confused about the many cameras available and anytime we can offer some interesting insights from our own experiences it's going to be appreciated. I think this forum excels at that and I hope it will continue.

Happy Holidays!!

-Tim

 

[AnalogJ]

I don't want the artifacts of film, I want the depth and subtlety of film. Have you seen the new 4k digital film prints - state of the art, right? I'll take a 70mm print every time if the print and equipment are first rate.

I love it when someone puts in those phony scratches in a video, as though that's what we long for.

 

[John Miles]

I agree, John - we are still here, tried and true. The panny forum is still a very special gathering place, IMO. I was gone for six months or so due to other demands on my time, but coming back has felt good. A lot of the old-timers are still around and the new people are just as positive and helpful. I wish you and yours a very happy holiday season as well. See you in 2014 (if not before then).

Daniel

PS: I wanted to thank you for inspiring me to pull out the ol' FZ50 and start shooting with it again. I forgot what a great camera it is!

No trouble at all Daniel. I know what I like to shoot with and just hope I maintain the cause without treading on too many toes. That I actually inspired an old FZ50 to be picked up again is really rather rewarding.

Merry Christmas.

 

[John Miles]

well spoken John. This forum has deteriorated a bit since I joined it in 2006 but I think it's still the best of the lot with people like you and several others making it still the most sane forum on the DPR group.

It is. There are still threads to draw some of the 'old timers' in from the wings aren't there.

Jack