Why no "magic lantern" type of magic for sony?

[success100]

Ive been wondering why someone hasn't created any type of hack for Sony Dslts.

For anyone who is not familiar with magic lantern, its a mod for Canon Dslrs that lets you do things that the camera could not do from the factory. For example the canon t2i was never supposed to be capable of 60p video output. Magic Lantern unlocked it along with a host of other things.

Now, I own a a77. It does not have the *cleanest* video, but I use it for paid gigs and it most certainly gets the job done to my clients liking. I recently shot with a buddy of mine with a canon 6d and it dawned on me. His camera can do up to iso 12000 or something like that in video. My video oriented a77, will not go over 1600. Is it that the camera is not capable? IMO NO. Sony says the reason video is limited to iso1600 in the a77 is because the increased voltage to the sensor to provide higher iso during video would cause overheating...however... a57 can do up to iso3200 in video. My question is, is it that Sony is...UNHACKABLE? I would LOVE to be able to push my a77 to iso6400 like the a99. It makes a difference! Noone wants to use f1.4 for video for example. You can't keep anything in focus. If I were able to use iso6400 that would make the difference of me being able to shoot video at f1.4 vs for example f3.5 in video.

So would I want to use iso6400 in video? Maybe, maybe not, but being able to shoot higher than iso1600 could make the difference between me using one of those top mounted LED lamps or not for example in club videos.

So I know i'm talking in circles, but Panasonic video on the GH2/GH3 has been hacked for higher bitrates and frame rates. Canon cameras have been hacked to do the same and more. Why is that Sony hasn't yet? Is it undoable, or do you think its a matter of just not enough interest in Sony DSLRs for video?

Ive thought about switching brands because of this but this like focus peaking, 60p/1080p video, articulating screen, etc, make it hard to switch. Id like the a99 but its out of my price range. So what do you guys think

 

[success100]

this is the only resource I've found http://www.nex-hack.info/talks/

 

[RichV]

The Sony cameras tend to be more electronic than other brands, and I think that's one reason why they don't provide larger buffers for stills burst mode: the heat issues get in the way. As well, their battery system really needs an overhaul so that they're able to power it all. But I'll go back to that idea of heat as a primary reason (the A55 was their first SLT and it suffered from overheating issues; Sony basically "solved" it, but I think their cameras run a higher heat risk than others).

The above said, you really don't want the A77 doing video at ISO 6400; it would be ugly. Sony knows this, and I'm pretty sure that's why they'll limit you to ISO 1600. As to why there's no Magic Lantern type of firmware for Sony cameras? They don't sell enough. There's a much, much bigger Canon (and Nikon, of course) customer base, and C/N probably encompass over 90% of the professional market. The Canon 5D was the big name in dSLR video for many years, so it makes sense that Canon's going to get these options. Both Canon and Nikon publish SDK's for their cameras (which isn't of course the same as firmware, but it's still insight into the system); I don't think Sony does.

If you really want what Magic Lantern gives, the solution might be an older 5D (maybe a Mark II) and a "basic" lens for it. Or wait and see what Sony's going to do in 2014.

--
Rich

 

[MikeM42]

I asked Sony about an SDK a while back and they answered they don't release one and that it's not in their plans.

 

[headfirst]

question a: why no Magic Lantern or similar?

Answer: much smaller market share so less interest. Bare in mind that Magic Lantern first came about with the 5D MkII & since ported to other models having familiarity acquired with Canon from that. The Sony equivalent would be for it to trickle down from A99 users ...

question b: why can't my A77 do ISO 6400 in video.

Answer: smaller sensor & higher pixel density - both things that have a negative effect on ISO capability

 

[success100]

The Sony cameras tend to be more electronic than other brands, and I think that's one reason why they don't provide larger buffers for stills burst mode: the heat issues get in the way. As well, their battery system really needs an overhaul so that they're able to power it all. But I'll go back to that idea of heat as a primary reason (the A55 was their first SLT and it suffered from overheating issues; Sony basically "solved" it, but I think their cameras run a higher heat risk than others).

The above said, you really don't want the A77 doing video at ISO 6400; it would be ugly. Sony knows this, and I'm pretty sure that's why they'll limit you to ISO 1600. As to why there's no Magic Lantern type of firmware for Sony cameras? They don't sell enough. There's a much, much bigger Canon (and Nikon, of course) customer base, and C/N probably encompass over 90% of the professional market. The Canon 5D was the big name in dSLR video for many years, so it makes sense that Canon's going to get these options. Both Canon and Nikon publish SDK's for their cameras (which isn't of course the same as firmware, but it's still insight into the system); I don't think Sony does.

If you really want what Magic Lantern gives, the solution might be an older 5D (maybe a Mark II) and a "basic" lens for it. Or wait and see what Sony's going to do in 2014.

--
Rich

I posted a link above to a site I found where there is actually some active development on building a unpack/repack tool to work with the firmware. One of the guys actually found a way to edit the firmware to make his changes, however they cannot figure out how to "commit
the changes and upload the edited firmware back to the camera. But yes I do agree, perhaps there is not enough people using Sony DSLT to spark interest for it.

I'm sure iso 6400 would not be to attractive, but it could be useful at times. In some cases, underpar video, is better than no video. But even if the a77 could be hacked to go to iso3200 or 4800, it would be much more useful than just 1600. Sony said the reason they won't do video above 1600 in the a77 is to prevent overheating. I think its BS. Just like they say f3.5 is required for accurate AF in video mode. Again, I think is BS.

 

[success100]

question a: why no Magic Lantern or similar?

Answer: much smaller market share so less interest. Bare in mind that Magic Lantern first came about with the 5D MkII & since ported to other models having familiarity acquired with Canon from that. The Sony equivalent would be for it to trickle down from A99 users ...

question b: why can't my A77 do ISO 6400 in video.

Answer: smaller sensor & higher pixel density - both things that have a negative effect on ISO

capability

I think we may be right about the first question.

However I'm going to disagree. Its not that the a77 can't do it. The a77 can go to iso6400 in still mode. Video mode was a judgement call at Sony. I'd be happy with being able to go to iso3200

 

[K E Hoffman]

When a marketing guy misses a chance to put a bigger number in the specs on an the box.. I would assume it was tried and failed in R&D.

I run hacked routers and while you can turn the power up on most.. a few have been known to burn out from going too high.. so even if I could.. I would probably avoid it.

 

[thebustos]

I think most of your issues might be fixed in the next green of SLTs. I was reading the camera Labs review of the A7r and he tested video AF with the lens opened up to f1.8 and video up to ISO 12800. Looking at the A7/r and RX-10, they all have a head phone jack, audio level control, and uncompressed output. I think when the SLTs came out, AF in video was cool, but now the 70D can do it with none of the aperture or ISO restrictions. Almost all of the current Nikons have uncompressed output and audio control. I think Sony will have to add all this to a new SLT to remain competitive in this regard. I'd say if they do it might push Sony ahead again. I think the new sensors and processor look very promising. I'd just wait it out a bit longer.
--
Good luck and happy shooting!

 

[RichV]

The Sony cameras tend to be more electronic than other brands, and I think that's one reason why they don't provide larger buffers for stills burst mode: the heat issues get in the way. As well, their battery system really needs an overhaul so that they're able to power it all. But I'll go back to that idea of heat as a primary reason (the A55 was their first SLT and it suffered from overheating issues; Sony basically "solved" it, but I think their cameras run a higher heat risk than others).

The above said, you really don't want the A77 doing video at ISO 6400; it would be ugly. Sony knows this, and I'm pretty sure that's why they'll limit you to ISO 1600. As to why there's no Magic Lantern type of firmware for Sony cameras? They don't sell enough. There's a much, much bigger Canon (and Nikon, of course) customer base, and C/N probably encompass over 90% of the professional market. The Canon 5D was the big name in dSLR video for many years, so it makes sense that Canon's going to get these options. Both Canon and Nikon publish SDK's for their cameras (which isn't of course the same as firmware, but it's still insight into the system); I don't think Sony does.

If you really want what Magic Lantern gives, the solution might be an older 5D (maybe a Mark II) and a "basic" lens for it. Or wait and see what Sony's going to do in 2014.

 

[headfirst]

the iq of the A77 isn't great at 6400 as a stills camera. In video not only the sensor would be running full time but also the video is created by taking the full image size (less the bit to allow for pixel-shifting stabilisation & resize to a multiple of the video image ratio) & crunching that feed through Bionz so you now have 2 heat sources ...

 

[Shield3]

I recently shot with a buddy of mine with a canon 6d and it dawned on me. His camera can do up to iso 12000 or something like that in video.

Actually it will go over 20k ISO on the 5d3 and 6d.

My video oriented a77, will not go over 1600. Is it that the camera is not capable? IMO NO. Sony says the reason video is limited to iso1600 in the a77 is because the increased voltage to the sensor to provide higher iso during video would cause overheating...however... a57 can do up to iso3200 in video.

Actually this is utter nonsense. It's restricted as it's just too noisy above ISO 1600.

Part of being on the dark "Canon" side is they aren't as draconian about their firmware - you can actually flash one to an OLDER firmware and vice-versa as many times as you like. In fact, to run ML on Canon, you are 2 firmware revisions behind (1.1.3) and you'll miss out on a few improvements, like clean HDMI out and AF with teleconverters @ F/8. But who cares? ML adds zebras, focus peaking, dual ISO mode, automatic AF fine tune, over-crank/under-crank frame rate, time lapse, and of course, raw video. I say draconian because once you flash a Sony camera to the newer firmware you can NEVER go back - I remember a workaround on the a77 with firmware 1.03 to get full time AF in video even @ F/1.4, but had already flashed mine to 1.05.

 

[Shield3]

The Sony cameras tend to be more electronic than other brands

LOL. More electronic? Have you ever taken a camera apart? They all have mother and daughter boards - one isn't more "electronic" than another.

, and I think that's one reason why they don't provide larger buffers for stills burst mode: the heat issues get in the way.

Or, more logically, Sony has poorly written the instruction set for writing data to the buffer, been cheap on the memory cache size, or the processors/controllers just aren't fast enough.

As well, their battery system really needs an overhaul so that they're able to power it all. But I'll go back to that idea of heat as a primary reason (the A55 was their first SLT and it suffered from overheating issues; Sony basically "solved" it, but I think their cameras run a higher heat risk than others).

The above said, you really don't want the A77 doing video at ISO 6400; it would be ugly. Sony knows this, and I'm pretty sure that's why they'll limit you to ISO 1600. As to why there's no Magic Lantern type of firmware for Sony cameras? They don't sell enough.

Did Panasonic sell as many GF2/GH2/GH1 cameras as Sony did SLTs? Perhaps someone was just able to decrypt the Panasonic (and Canon) firmware to reverse engineer it. Nikons sell very well and there's no ML for it either.

There's a much, much bigger Canon (and Nikon, of course) customer base, and C/N probably encompass over 90% of the professional market. The Canon 5D was the big name in dSLR video for many years, so it makes sense that Canon's going to get these options. Both Canon and Nikon publish SDK's for their cameras (which isn't of course the same as firmware, but it's still insight into the system); I don't think Sony does.

If you really want what Magic Lantern gives, the solution might be an older 5D (maybe a Mark II) and a "basic" lens for it. Or wait and see what Sony's going to do in 2014.

? The solution *might* be an older 5d? ML is supported on almost every Canon camera body ever made, short of the 1dx/1dc. ML even has video working on cameras they never originally had a true video function (50d); they were able to get a feed from live view.

Perhaps this Sony forum isn't the best place to discuss ML software -you might be better off here:

Loading…

www.magiclantern.fm

 

[Shield3]

When a marketing guy misses a chance to put a bigger number in the specs on an the box.. I would assume it was tried and failed in R&D.

ISO3200 on the a57 in video mode is way too noisy anyway.

 

[Shield3]

The Sony cameras tend to be more electronic than other brands, and I think that's one reason why they don't provide larger buffers for stills burst mode: the heat issues get in the way. As well, their battery system really needs an overhaul so that they're able to power it all. But I'll go back to that idea of heat as a primary reason (the A55 was their first SLT and it suffered from overheating issues; Sony basically "solved" it, but I think their cameras run a higher heat risk than others).

The above said, you really don't want the A77 doing video at ISO 6400; it would be ugly. Sony knows this, and I'm pretty sure that's why they'll limit you to ISO 1600. As to why there's no Magic Lantern type of firmware for Sony cameras? They don't sell enough. There's a much, much bigger Canon (and Nikon, of course) customer base, and C/N probably encompass over 90% of the professional market. The Canon 5D was the big name in dSLR video for many years, so it makes sense that Canon's going to get these options. Both Canon and Nikon publish SDK's for their cameras (which isn't of course the same as firmware, but it's still insight into the system); I don't think Sony does.

If you really want what Magic Lantern gives, the solution might be an older 5D (maybe a Mark II) and a "basic" lens for it. Or wait and see what Sony's going to do in 2014.

 

[success100]

The Sony cameras tend to be more electronic than other brands, and I think that's one reason why they don't provide larger buffers for stills burst mode: the heat issues get in the way. As well, their battery system really needs an overhaul so that they're able to power it all. But I'll go back to that idea of heat as a primary reason (the A55 was their first SLT and it suffered from overheating issues; Sony basically "solved" it, but I think their cameras run a higher heat risk than others).

The above said, you really don't want the A77 doing video at ISO 6400; it would be ugly. Sony knows this, and I'm pretty sure that's why they'll limit you to ISO 1600. As to why there's no Magic Lantern type of firmware for Sony cameras? They don't sell enough. There's a much, much bigger Canon (and Nikon, of course) customer base, and C/N probably encompass over 90% of the professional market. The Canon 5D was the big name in dSLR video for many years, so it makes sense that Canon's going to get these options. Both Canon and Nikon publish SDK's for their cameras (which isn't of course the same as firmware, but it's still insight into the system); I don't think Sony does.

If you really want what Magic Lantern gives, the solution might be an older 5D (maybe a Mark II) and a "basic" lens for it. Or wait and see what Sony's going to do in 2014.

 

[headfirst]

The Panasonic GH3 shoots 1080p60 without a time limit and is smaller or close to the same size as the a77. Does ISO 6400 in video mode. Pixel density? It's 16MP crammed onto a much smaller micro 4/3rds sensor, which is half the size of APS-C. So....perhaps Sony just didn't spend the time getting the video ironed out as well as they could have? Why is every Sony omission have to be purely because of a technical limitation? Don't get these responses.

Iirc 4/3 is ~38% less area than a 1.5x crop factor APS-C. The pixel area on an A77 is only 8% larger than on a GH3 but it's also an older sensor.

Coming from the GH2 the GH3 was developed as a video-centric camera probably even more so than as a still body, the A77 wasn't.

 

[Shield3]

The Panasonic GH3 shoots 1080p60 without a time limit and is smaller or close to the same size as the a77. Does ISO 6400 in video mode. Pixel density? It's 16MP crammed onto a much smaller micro 4/3rds sensor, which is half the size of APS-C. So....perhaps Sony just didn't spend the time getting the video ironed out as well as they could have? Why is every Sony omission have to be purely because of a technical limitation? Don't get these responses.

Iirc 4/3 is ~38% less area than a 1.5x crop factor APS-C. The pixel area on an A77 is only 8% larger than on a GH3 but it's also an older sensor.

Coming from the GH2 the GH3 was developed as a video-centric camera probably even more so than as a still body, the A77 wasn't.

http://www.digicamdb.com/compare/panasonic_lumix-dmc-gh3-vs-sony_slt-a77/

"Sony SLT-A77 has approx. 63% more surface area than Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH3."

The pixel density? The GH3 - 7.13 MP/cm² vs. 6.65 MP/cm². The GH3 is actually MORE dense than the a77!

So there goes the theory that it's heat caused by pixels too dense. Again, the GH3 can shoot unlimited video until you run out of battery or card space. More dense, SMALLER, (132.9 x 93.4 x 82.0 mm GH3 vs 143x104x81 mm A77), does 60p. GH3 can record video at 2 full stops above the a77 @ ISO 6400.

So smaller, lighter, can shoot longer, more dense pixels, doesn't overheat. Same video frame rate. In fact, the GH3 does very high bitrate video around 75Mbit/s, while the A77 is capped at 28. So which camera SHOULD be overheating based on posts in this thread? The bigger one with less dense pixels shooting at a much lower ISO and bitrate, or the GH3?

Still waiting on other reasons why the a77 can't do above ISO 1600 other than that's just where Sony felt the noise would be too high.

 

[success100]

The Panasonic GH3 shoots 1080p60 without a time limit and is smaller or close to the same size as the a77. Does ISO 6400 in video mode. Pixel density? It's 16MP crammed onto a much smaller micro 4/3rds sensor, which is half the size of APS-C. So....perhaps Sony just didn't spend the time getting the video ironed out as well as they could have? Why is every Sony omission have to be purely because of a technical limitation? Don't get these responses.

Iirc 4/3 is ~38% less area than a 1.5x crop factor APS-C. The pixel area on an A77 is only 8% larger than on a GH3 but it's also an older sensor.

Coming from the GH2 the GH3 was developed as a video-centric camera probably even more so than as a still body, the A77 wasn't.

http://www.digicamdb.com/compare/panasonic_lumix-dmc-gh3-vs-sony_slt-a77/

"Sony SLT-A77 has approx. 63% more surface area than Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH3."

The pixel density? The GH3 - 7.13 MP/cm² vs. 6.65 MP/cm². The GH3 is actually MORE dense than the a77!

So there goes the theory that it's heat caused by pixels too dense. Again, the GH3 can shoot unlimited video until you run out of battery or card space. More dense, SMALLER, (132.9 x 93.4 x 82.0 mm GH3 vs 143x104x81 mm A77), does 60p. GH3 can record video at 2 full stops above the a77 @ ISO 6400.

So smaller, lighter, can shoot longer, more dense pixels, doesn't overheat. Same video frame rate. In fact, the GH3 does very high bitrate video around 75Mbit/s, while the A77 is capped at 28. So which camera SHOULD be overheating based on posts in this thread? The bigger one with less dense pixels shooting at a much lower ISO and bitrate, or the GH3?

Still waiting on other reasons why the a77 can't do above ISO 1600 other than that's just where Sony felt the noise would be too high.

You hit the nail on the head. The a77 was touted as a awesome video device for enthusiasts. Sony chose to cap it at 1600 for who knows why. If they felt it was too noisy that's fine. But I feel like still images are not acceptable past iso6400 on the a77, yet it can be amplified to 25,600! Ridiculous!

Also I would love to have the bitrate improved but the max bitrate for standard avchd is 28mbits/sec. Maybe sony needs to switch to .mov recording or someone needs to hack these baby's. I wish I was capable

 

[yndesai]

I understand that there was lot of backdoor support of Canon on CHDK and Magic Lantern projects.
No wonder the old Canon models can still give Sony run for money.

My Canon point and shoot with CHDK can tell SLT A58 : "I Know Kung-Fu" :-O.

I would use CHDK motion detection to catch the lightening shot.

-----
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