AlienBees for Product Photography - B400 vs B800

[harryhoods]

I've decided to pick up some AlienBees for the product photography I shoot.

The table I shoot 75% of everything on is 24 x 24.

I'm trying to decide between the B400 and the B800. Thing is, like most, It'd be nice to have something that could additionally be used for larger indoor options that are not on the 24 x 24 table. Lets say nothing larger than a bicycle. Always indoors.

Would love the versatility but don't want it to be too powerful since I mainly shoot small stuff.

Was thinking x2 B800's + x2 24" x 36" softboxes.

Appreciate any advice/thoughts in advance!

 

[Barrie Davis]

harryhoods wrote:

I've decided to pick up some AlienBees for the product photography I shoot.
The table I shoot 75% of everything on is 24 x 24.

I'm trying to decide between the B400 and the B800. Thing is, like most, It'd be nice to have something that could additionally be used for larger indoor options that are not on the 24 x 24 table. Lets say nothing larger than a bicycle. Always indoors.
Would love the versatility but don't want it to be too powerful since I mainly shoot small stuff.
Was thinking x2 B800's + x2 24" x 36" softboxes.

Appreciate any advice/thoughts in advance!

The 800 will probably be too powerful for small sets. With studio electronic flash it happens too much power is more of a problem than too little.... so you got that right. (good thinking, Batman.)

But why do you want two softboxes exactly the same? If you are considering having one light either side of the camera, think again. That would be very dreary lighting. Get one 24 x 36, and one HALF that size.

However, it would be good to be able to BOOM the light over the top of the set, so I would advise you to START OFF with that capability.

Also, make some small diffusing screens and similar sized silver/white reflectors.

And get yourself a good book on how to set up lighting for products. The industry standard is...

"Light: Science and Magic"..

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/8950093023/light-science-magic-by-fil-hunter

at Amazon..

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=light+science+and+magic

--
Regards,
Baz
:
"Ahh... But the thing is, these guys were no ORDINARY time travellers!"

 

[Lawrence Keeney]

For they type of work you describe, I would suggest the AB400s. However, if you decide on doing portraits in the future, the AB800 is a good choice.

I started out with four AB400s. Being that I do a lot of studio portrait work, I found that the AB400 in a large softbox with double diffusion is just a little short on power when shooting at f8.

I now use my AB400s as background, hair, and accent lights. They are great for this type of work.

 

[Sailor Blue]

The advice from Barrie and Lawrence is spot on.

B800s are a lot of light for smaller products shoots. You would frequently find yourself having to pile on extra layers of diffusion fabric to your softboxes to cut down the light by a stop or more. For small product photography you want the B400's.

For portraits I have pretty efficient 40"x40" softboxes and can shoot at ISO = 100 and f/8 to f/11 with 300Ws studio strobes. The B800's is a good choice for portrait work with small 24"x24" softboxes or medium sized ones of up to about 3'x5' in size.

150Ws studio strobes are great for hair, accent, and background lights.

If you want to shoot at wider apertures than f/8 for a small depth of field you have to be aware that you can run into the problem of too much power if you use a 300Ws strobe with a 24"x24" softbox. Having both 150Ws and 300Ws lights is a very good idea in a portrait studio.

You need to match the power of your studio strobes to the subject, the size of the diffuser, and how far the diffuser is from the subject.

 

[Clueless Wanderer]

Just to throw in a little extra..

Ive found the hardest thing with product photography is getting the colours right, even with checker passport, profiles and the rest, its still a major issue. With any other photography, so what if the red has a slightly different hue or the brown isn't quite true.. But with product photography, the customer needs to see the correct colour of what they are buying.

Alien Bee's are famous for having colour variation between pops. The einstein was developed to counter this issue (and also for fast flash duration for moving subjects).
Because of this, I think you would save yourself a lot of pain and f words if you buy an einstein.

 

[24Peter]

FWIW - I shoot products (including small items like jewelry) all the time with AB800's & AB1600's as my main lights usually without issue. Low power settings are sometimes necessary but I've never been stymied by too much power. And since I also shoot portraits, I'm covered there too. (I purchased a AB400 at one point but returned it for another AB800 since it was too limited on full power.)

For background /kicker lights I also have a set of Flashpoint 150WS I sometimes use.

As was mentioned above, color rendition is important, but have never had a color shift from my AB's ruin a shoot. The shift is usually minimal enough that I can correct in PS.

 

[Lawrence Keeney]

I too have done some product shots (food, soap, jewelry, and other misc. items) and never had a color problem with my AB lights that I could not easily correct in Lightroom or Photoshop.

I do have an Einstein, but I us it mostly for it's very short duration flash for ballet jump shots.

 

[Barrie Davis]

24Peter wrote:

FWIW - I shoot products (including small items like jewelry) all the time with AB800's & AB1600's as my main lights usually without issue. Low power settings are sometimes necessary but I've never been stymied by too much power. And since I also shoot portraits, I'm covered there too. (I purchased a AB400 at one point but returned it for another AB800 since it was too limited on full power.)

The problem with overpowered lights is not fixed by simply turning them down to a lower power.

The modelling light bulbs are of the same wattage across all the models in the range, therefore, when the light is reduced in power, the modelling light becomes dim, sometimes too dim. Moreover, the greater the degree of overpower in the unit relative to the size of the set being lit, the lower the modelling light power becomes, relatively... with the result that focusing becomes difficult.

Now, certainly, the lack of power in the modelling lights can be overcome by disengaging their brightness tracking function, and wazing them up to full smack...

.... but then they are not proportional modelling lights anymore... (shrugs)

For background /kicker lights I also have a set of Flashpoint 150WS I sometimes use.

As was mentioned above, color rendition is important, but have never had a color shift from my AB's ruin a shoot. The shift is usually minimal enough that I can correct in PS.

 

[michaeladawson]

Barrie Davis wrote:

The problem with overpowered lights is not fixed by simply turning them down to a lower power.

The modelling light bulbs are of the same wattage across all the models in the range, therefore, when the light is reduced in power, the modelling light becomes dim, sometimes too dim. Moreover, the greater the degree of overpower in the unit relative to the size of the set being lit, the lower the modelling light power becomes, relatively... with the result that focusing becomes difficult.

Now, certainly, the lack of power in the modelling lights can be overcome by disengaging their brightness tracking function, and wazing them up to full smack...

.... but then they are not proportional modelling lights anymore... (shrugs)

Paul Buff Einstein. That's what I would go with. Goes down to 1/128th power. Independent control of modeling light power.

 

[Barrie Davis]

michaeladawson wrote:

Barrie Davis wrote:

The problem with overpowered lights is not fixed by simply turning them down to a lower power.

The modelling light bulbs are of the same wattage across all the models in the range, therefore, when the light is reduced in power, the modelling light becomes dim, sometimes too dim. Moreover, the greater the degree of overpower in the unit relative to the size of the set being lit, the lower the modelling light power becomes, relatively... with the result that focusing becomes difficult.

Now, certainly, the lack of power in the modelling lights can be overcome by disengaging their brightness tracking function, and wazing them up to full smack...

.... but then they are not proportional modelling lights anymore... (shrugs)

Paul Buff Einstein. That's what I would go with. Goes down to 1/128th power. Independent control of modeling light power.

Which system would no doubt require calibration, possibly on a unit by unit basis.... (shrugs again)

 

[michaeladawson]

Barrie Davis wrote:

michaeladawson wrote:

Barrie Davis wrote:

The problem with overpowered lights is not fixed by simply turning them down to a lower power.

The modelling light bulbs are of the same wattage across all the models in the range, therefore, when the light is reduced in power, the modelling light becomes dim, sometimes too dim. Moreover, the greater the degree of overpower in the unit relative to the size of the set being lit, the lower the modelling light power becomes, relatively... with the result that focusing becomes difficult.

Now, certainly, the lack of power in the modelling lights can be overcome by disengaging their brightness tracking function, and wazing them up to full smack...

.... but then they are not proportional modelling lights anymore... (shrugs)

Paul Buff Einstein. That's what I would go with. Goes down to 1/128th power. Independent control of modeling light power.

Which system would no doubt require calibration, possibly on a unit by unit basis.... (shrugs again)

 

[Barrie Davis]

michaeladawson wrote:

Barrie Davis wrote:

michaeladawson wrote:

Barrie Davis wrote:

The problem with overpowered lights is not fixed by simply turning them down to a lower power.

The modelling light bulbs are of the same wattage across all the models in the range, therefore, when the light is reduced in power, the modelling light becomes dim, sometimes too dim. Moreover, the greater the degree of overpower in the unit relative to the size of the set being lit, the lower the modelling light power becomes, relatively... with the result that focusing becomes difficult.

Now, certainly, the lack of power in the modelling lights can be overcome by disengaging their brightness tracking function, and wazing them up to full smack...

.... but then they are not proportional modelling lights anymore... (shrugs)

Paul Buff Einstein. That's what I would go with. Goes down to 1/128th power. Independent control of modeling light power.

Which system would no doubt require calibration, possibly on a unit by unit basis.... (shrugs again)

I'm a bit puzzled by your answer. I understand that for complete accuracy you may want to do some calibration. But, why would calibration on the Einsteins be required any more so than any other monolight system?

Obviously, the proportional modelling light facility is lost if the modelling light power is "uncoupled" from the power of the flash... which is what your "solution" brings about.

Your previous response was that turning down the power on flashes had the problem that the modeling lights would also be reduced to the point that they weren't proportional

No. Not "where they weren't proportional" .... but to the point where they were too dim to be used. Models ARE proportional dim and "ganged" to flash power, but they're NOT when turned up bright.

anymore and that focusing was now difficult. With systems that have independent control of the modeling lights you can get around these two limitations.

But only by replacing one problem with another problem... lack of proportionality between modelling light and actual flash.

Indeed, with the Einsteins relatively high power halogen modelling lamps it could be argued it would make more sense to dispense with the flash and shoot by those lights, and a Tungsten balance, especailly as they are on dimmers....

....... I have done this from time to time.

--
Regards,
Baz
:
"Ahh... But the thing is, these guys were no ORDINARY time travellers!"

 

[Robert J. Gonzalez]

harryhoods wrote:

I've decided to pick up some AlienBees for the product photography I shoot.
The table I shoot 75% of everything on is 24 x 24.

I'm trying to decide between the B400 and the B800. Thing is, like most, It'd be nice to have something that could additionally be used for larger indoor options that are not on the 24 x 24 table. Lets say nothing larger than a bicycle. Always indoors.
Would love the versatility but don't want it to be too powerful since I mainly shoot small stuff.
Was thinking x2 B800's + x2 24" x 36" softboxes.

Appreciate any advice/thoughts in advance!

Are you handy with a soldering iron?

All the alien bees, like most analog strobes, all use the same internals.

The only difference is the number of capacitors on the board, 1 to 4.

The 400 uses one, the 800 uses two, and the 1600 uses four.

Buys some used 400's(no warranty issues), some capacitors, and upgrade them.

 

[Sailor Blue]

Robert J. Gonzalez wrote:

Are you handy with a soldering iron?

All the alien bees, like most analog strobes, all use the same internals.

The only difference is the number of capacitors on the board, 1 to 4.

The 400 uses one, the 800 uses two, and the 1600 uses four.

Buys some used 400's(no warranty issues), some capacitors, and upgrade them.

DON'T DO THIS!!!

High voltage capacitors like those used in studio strobes or hot-shoe flash units can hold enough charge to KILL!

Unless you are specially trained in how to work with high voltages and high voltage capacitors opening up a studio strobe or hot-shoe flash can result in you removing yourself from the human gene pool - a good example of the Darwin principle in action.

Darwin Awards

 

[Robert J. Gonzalez]

Sailor Blue wrote:

Robert J. Gonzalez wrote:

Are you handy with a soldering iron?

All the alien bees, like most analog strobes, all use the same internals.

The only difference is the number of capacitors on the board, 1 to 4.

The 400 uses one, the 800 uses two, and the 1600 uses four.

Buys some used 400's(no warranty issues), some capacitors, and upgrade them.

DON'T DO THIS!!!

High voltage capacitors like those used in studio strobes or hot-shoe flash units can hold enough charge to KILL!

Unless you are specially trained in how to work with high voltages and high voltage capacitors opening up a studio strobe or hot-shoe flash can result in you removing yourself from the human gene pool - a good example of the Darwin principle in action.

Darwin Awards

--
Living and loving it in Bangkok, Thailand. Canon 7D - See the gear list for the rest.

Ignore this alarmist, he obviously didn't read the part about being handy with a soldering iron, ie, someone who knows what he's doing.

 

[Clueless Wanderer]

Robert J. Gonzalez wrote:

Sailor Blue wrote:

Robert J. Gonzalez wrote:

Are you handy with a soldering iron?

All the alien bees, like most analog strobes, all use the same internals.

The only difference is the number of capacitors on the board, 1 to 4.

The 400 uses one, the 800 uses two, and the 1600 uses four.

Buys some used 400's(no warranty issues), some capacitors, and upgrade them.

DON'T DO THIS!!!

High voltage capacitors like those used in studio strobes or hot-shoe flash units can hold enough charge to KILL!

Unless you are specially trained in how to work with high voltages and high voltage capacitors opening up a studio strobe or hot-shoe flash can result in you removing yourself from the human gene pool - a good example of the Darwin principle in action.

Darwin Awards

 

[Sailor Blue]

Robert J. Gonzalez wrote:

Sailor Blue wrote:

Robert J. Gonzalez wrote:

Are you handy with a soldering iron?

All the alien bees, like most analog strobes, all use the same internals.

The only difference is the number of capacitors on the board, 1 to 4.

The 400 uses one, the 800 uses two, and the 1600 uses four.

Buys some used 400's(no warranty issues), some capacitors, and upgrade them.

DON'T DO THIS!!!

High voltage capacitors like those used in studio strobes or hot-shoe flash units can hold enough charge to KILL!

Unless you are specially trained in how to work with high voltages and high voltage capacitors opening up a studio strobe or hot-shoe flash can result in you removing yourself from the human gene pool - a good example of the Darwin principle in action.

Darwin Awards

--
Living and loving it in Bangkok, Thailand. Canon 7D - See the gear list for the rest.

Ignore this alarmist, he obviously didn't read the part about being handy with a soldering iron, ie, someone who knows what he's doing.

You are welcome to ignore the advice, just make sure your life insurance is paid up before you "get handy with your soldering iron". Your widow can enjoy the luxuries the insurance provides.

--
Living and loving it in Bangkok, Thailand. Canon 7D - See the gear list for the rest.

 

[historianx]

Uh back to the discussion I have 4 B800s I use in various degree and fashion but one day I saw a poor lonely pink B400 sitting abandoned in a camera store, with case, so I gave it a new home as my primary hair/rim/catchlight. Even at 1/32 power it still does very well. I would also use it as a main light for small product photography, like jewelry, if I did that kind of work.

 

[BMPhotographyNikon]

The advice from Barrie and Lawrence is spot on.

B800s are a lot of light for smaller products shoots. You would frequently find yourself having to pile on extra layers of diffusion fabric to your softboxes to cut down the light by a stop or more. For small product photography you want the B400's.

For portraits I have pretty efficient 40"x40" softboxes and can shoot at ISO = 100 and f/8 to f/11 with 300Ws studio strobes. The B800's is a good choice for portrait work with small 24"x24" softboxes or medium sized ones of up to about 3'x5' in size.

150Ws studio strobes are great for hair, accent, and background lights.

If you want to shoot at wider apertures than f/8 for a small depth of field you have to be aware that you can run into the problem of too much power if you use a 300Ws strobe with a 24"x24" softbox. Having both 150Ws and 300Ws lights is a very good idea in a portrait studio.

You need to match the power of your studio strobes to the subject, the size of the diffuser, and how far the diffuser is from the subject.

--
Living and loving it in Bangkok, Thailand. Canon 7D - See the gear list for the rest.

Your last was spot one about color shift between pop. Hope Einstein™ E640 Flash Unit solved that.

I use Baby Broncolor's. cheers

 

[Peter Damroth]

I would consider one of each 400 and 800. And the suggestion to have a boom to put a softbox over the set is relevant.