Help with flash for em-5!

[Michael Meissner]

hybert46 wrote:

The FL-300r seems very nice and tiny but I am afraid it will be a bit limiting in terms of orientation of the flash unit and I don't see myself holding it in one hand and shooting with the other (of course I could just place the FL-300r on a table next to the subject but then it becomes quickly complicated to set-up).

Another possibility is a small bracket that attaches the FL-300R to the camera, and puts it to the side. Note, the FL-300R (or any remote flash) has to see the flash from the commander flash in order to fire. In a small room, this is typically not an issue, since the flash will see reflections of the commander flash from the walls, but it can be an issue in larger rooms where the walls are further away, or outdoors.

Therefore, I think the FL-600r or the FL-36r or any equivalent flash unit (maybe the Metz 44 AF-1) would be quite a good fit. I still have a few questions though:

- I cannot really figure out what are the main difference between these three flashes (except the video light and the recycling time). Would they all work in RC mode and TTL metering?

FL-600R essentially is the replacement for the older FL-36R (which in turn was a replacement for the even older FL-36). From memory:

• FL-600R takes 4 AA batteries for power, FL-36R takes 2. This means the FL-600R will recycle faster and/or provide more shots fired sequentially than the FL-36R. I haven't looked it up, but I suspect 4 AA batteries makes the FL-600R slightly heavier than the FL-36R.
• FL-600R has the video light, and on the newer Olympus cameras that have a focus assist light (E-M5, E-PL5, E-PM2, and E-P5), the FL-600R will use the video light as a focus assist in dark situations. The FL-36R has a red focus assist light that is not used for any of the micro 4/3rds cameras (it was used on the previous classic 4/3rds DSLRs).
• The Metz 44 is probably similar to the FL-36R.

- What is the main difference between Rc mode and slave-commander mode?

RC-mode is intelligent mode where the camera uses coded signals to talk the flashes, and controls the flash's behavior. You need an Olympus camera starting with the E-PL1 or some recent Panasonic cameras (G-H3) to use RC-mode.

Slave-commander mode is where the flash just waits for a flash pulse, and then fires its light so it is going off while the shutter is still open. You have to set the camera to manual mode (ISO, aperture, shutter speed), and you have to set the flash itself to a given power level or the 1970's era flash automation ('auto' mode, where you tell the flash what aperture you are shooting at and the flash uses its own sensor to turn off the light when it sees the reflection of the light and figures out enough light has been emitted).

- Would I be able to control the main parameters directly from the em-5 or do they require independent manual setting of the flash unit when used off camera?

In RC-mode yes, in slave mode no.

- I still have an old olympus E-30 that I use once in a while (rather as a backup camera with the 12-60mm). I don't really plan to use the flash unit with this camera but who knows. It seems the Fl-600r is not fully compatible with the E-30. Can I still use it directly on-camera or would it be only for off-camera use trigger by the internal flash-unit?

The E-30 would not be able to use the focus assist/video light, but other functions should work.

 

[Art_P]

first, you mentioned radio control. Nope, no radio involved. The remote flash is triggered by the flash on the camera. Radio would be nice, but w Olympus R flashes you are limited by line of sight. (R standing for Remote, not Radio)

btw, I don't have any of the newer flashes, I already had the FL-50r, so didn't feel compelled to buy another flash. I don't use flash much anyway, but I've used it handheld for macro shots, on it's little stand for eBay pix, and even mounted on camera (w full battery grip attached)

 

[stowei]

Just a quick observation. I have the FL-300R but don't enjoy it because I am a viewfinder-only shooter; I find that if I set the FL-300R to bounce I then cannot get my eye to the finder. So it effectively becomes a non-bounceable flash for me, which defeats quite a lot of the point. If I were to replace it I would be looking for a gun which hinged in a more conventional way. However, if you are a monitor-shooter or don't bounce then not an issue.

 

[Michael Meissner]

One other minor point, the FL-600R is the first Olympus flash that can act as RC-flash commander on the newer cameras. Previously, you had to use the pop-up flash (E-PL1, E-PL2, E-P3, E-P5) or the clip-on flash (E-PM1, E-PM2, E-PL3, E-PL5, E-M5) to control the other flashes. I presume this means with the FL-600R you can now direct the flash controller's light, and also it has more power than the pop-up/clip-on flashes. However, this is probably not an issue for most people, until you have several RC flashes.

 

[hybert46]

Thank you very much Michael!

your two posts clarified quite a lot of things for me (I might be a bit slow in understanding everything). I am feeling, I nearly understood all of the tricks of flash photography ;-). One very last question tough:

Let´s say I am using the clip-on flash on the om-d and the Fl600r off-camera. Am I right to say that the clip-on will always have to flash (both in RC mode or slave mode) in order to trigger the fl-600r or is there a way to completely disable the clip-on flash so that it does not expose the picture?

Thanks again

Simon

 

[hybert46]

Hi there,

Once again thank you all for participating to this thread and all your advices! It´s been extremely helpful. Here are a few thoughts that will guide my final decision, feel free to comment or disagree:

I think the size of the FL-600r is the maximum I can really carry on my om-d. The Metz 58 or olympus FL 50 -r are just too big for me. On the other hand, if I really want to go to bouncing flash with a bit of room for creative configurations, I need sufficient power. Therefore, the smaller units look either too week or do not offer enough tilt or swivel angle. The RC mode seems to be by far the easiest way to go in an off-camera configuration as you can control everything directly from the camera. I think I will like this simplification a lot.

This basically leaves me only with the FL-600r or the older Fl-36r. The price for a new unit is not that different between the two. So I think I will first look for a second-hand FL-36r with low price and if I cannot get one, I would then go for the new Fl-600r.

Does it makes sense?

Simon

 

[Michael Meissner]

hybert46 wrote:

Thank you very much Michael!

your two posts clarified quite a lot of things for me (I might be a bit slow in understanding everything). I am feeling, I nearly understood all of the tricks of flash photography ;-). One very last question tough:

Let´s say I am using the clip-on flash on the om-d and the Fl600r off-camera. Am I right to say that the clip-on will always have to flash (both in RC mode or slave mode) in order to trigger the fl-600r or is there a way to completely disable the clip-on flash so that it does not expose the picture?

It depends on the camera. In the recent cameras (E-M5, E-PL5, E-PM2, and E-P5) you can control whether the pop-up flash is used to light the subject (page 97 of the E-M5 manual, page 110 of the E-PL5 and E-PM2 manuals) in the wireless flash control menu that you get to from the super control panel (you may need to have the SCP enabled, I don't have my E-PM2 in front of me).

In older Olympus cameras, there wasn't a control, but the common trick to eliminate the pop-up/clip-on flash from lighting the scene was to select FP-TTL mode, and select a faster shutter speed than the normal sync speed (1/125 to 1/250, depending on the camera, and what settings you use in the camera).

 

[Guy Parsons]

hybert46 wrote:

Hi there,

Once again thank you all for participating to this thread and all your advices! It´s been extremely helpful. Here are a few thoughts that will guide my final decision, feel free to comment or disagree:

I think the size of the FL-600r is the maximum I can really carry on my om-d. The Metz 58 or olympus FL 50 -r are just too big for me. On the other hand, if I really want to go to bouncing flash with a bit of room for creative configurations, I need sufficient power. Therefore, the smaller units look either too week or do not offer enough tilt or swivel angle. The RC mode seems to be by far the easiest way to go in an off-camera configuration as you can control everything directly from the camera. I think I will like this simplification a lot.

This basically leaves me only with the FL-600r or the older Fl-36r. The price for a new unit is not that different between the two. So I think I will first look for a second-hand FL-36r with low price and if I cannot get one, I would then go for the new Fl-600r.

Does it makes sense?

In my case I already had the FL-50 from Oly 4/3 DSLR days, then later the FL-36R with the E-PL1. Both nice and big output when needed, but most times only a small flash is really needed for "emergency" use.

The E-PL1 pop-up or the E-PL5 FL-LM1 work OK but harsh due to close to line of lens, plus lens shadows with longer lenses or if I leave the lens hood on. So early on I carried a little old Nikon SB-30 from film days (about FL-300R size and shape) and used it in auto mode and matched settings on flash and camera.

A "Christmas present" to myself before a holiday was the little FL-300R as it works so much better than any pop-up for direct or bounce (if using a suitably high ISO) and became the "always carried" flash. The FL-36R or FL-50 only come out to play when a larger room is involved, the sort of party or family reunion flash.

The FL-600R would be nicer to use than the FL-36R and would be preferred if close in price, or even if not close in price. Everything just works. Then there's always a case for the little FL-300R later for that just in case flash for holidays and miscellaneous outings with the camera.

Back to RC control.

The master flash, be it a pop-up or the FL-LM1/2 or the FL-600R sends a high speed bunch of low power flash pulses before exposure to set up the slave flashes according to the requested settings in the RC control menu in the camera. There may be a fast double flash from the slave flash if set to TTL mode during this setup period.

Then when the shutter is open (at first or second curtain timing as selected) then a final RC flash pulse of low power happens to finally trigger the slaves for the exposure. If the pop-up/attached flash can also do main RC control plus main flash, then that final trigger pulse is a higher powered pulse to have a deliberate effect on the exposure.

If that last pulse is only the RC trigger then it is low power and may or may not have an effect on the exposure in some way, in fact it may help to put a tiny highlight in the eyes from the camera position. If that tiny control flash is a problem then in a room or close by it usually works to deflect the control flashes with some paper or cooking foil so the trigger flash has no effect on the exposure.

The RC control flashes have three power settings of lo/mid/hi in order to cope with different situations, and maybe out of line of sight situations indoors.

A good use for the RC control is to have a heavy flash like the huge FL-50R on a sidebar (because it's too darn heavy to be in the hotshoe) and then use the RC mode instead of a flash extender cable to trigger the big flash. The random RC signal reflections off the subject or around the room easily control the flash on the sidebar.

If needing a flash extender cable then any of Olympus, Panasonic or Canon extender cables work as the comms contacts are in the right place, one contact is unused in the Canon cable.

Summary... there's a good case to own both the FL-600R and the FL-300R at some stage and use each according to size needed for the occasion. Plus then you have two slaves to get more interesting setups.

Regards.... Guy

Sorry about the misleading "can't twist the FL-36R one direction", that was bad, I was too lazy to dig out the FL-36R in the next room. I use the FL-300R so much now that I had forgotten what the FL-36R does.

 

[daddyo]

Simon,

Just keep in mind that the FL-36R uses only two AA batteries, as opposed to four AA's in the FL-600R. Therefore the FL-600R has faster recycle time, and much longer use between battery changes.

I used to have the FL-36, but sold it for the very reason that it only used two AA's -- otherwise it is an excellent flash.

God Bless,

Greg

www.imagismphotos.com

www.mccroskery.zenfolio.com

www.pbase.com/daddyo

 

[Guy Parsons]

daddyo wrote:

Simon,

Just keep in mind that the FL-36R uses only two AA batteries, as opposed to four AA's in the FL-600R. Therefore the FL-600R has faster recycle time, and much longer use between battery changes.

I used to have the FL-36, but sold it for the very reason that it only used two AA's -- otherwise it is an excellent flash.

I find that the FL-36R works for me as I do set the ISO higher to make the flash range better or to make recycling time faster.

Also Sanyo Eneloop batteries or equivalent low self discharge rechargeables do seem to make it recycle faster. I use Eneloop, Varta, Eveready and Aldi batteries of that type and they all seem the same in action.

Regards..... Guy

 

[Alumna Gorp]

Am I right in thinking both the FL600 and FL50R both weigh the same 900g, from memory my FL50R came packaged with extras like a bounce card and a stofen style diffuser.

My first came as a free gift with my E3, my second I picked up second hand.

Bounce cards are really useful for extending the range bouncing off ceilings and they save on power as well since the card is pushing more light up and forward.

I never use my FL50R in the shoe, its for too big using M4/3, it wasn`t so bad on my E3.

Side bar/flash grip is a good solution, but when I work like this I prefer a cable connection, this also saves on the camera battery quite a bit and it can be a pain setting up the fiddly little flash.

 

[daddyo]

The FL-600R is no where near the weight or size of the FL-50R.

The FL-600R weighs 260 grams, while the FL-50R weighs 386 grams. The flash dimensions are not even close.

God Bless,

Greg

www.imagismphotos.com

www.mccroskery.zenfolio.com

www.pbase.com/daddyo

 

[Alumna Gorp]

daddyo wrote:

The FL-600R is no where near the weight or size of the FL-50R.

The FL-600R weighs 260 grams, while the FL-50R weighs 386 grams. The flash dimensions are not even close.

God Bless,

Greg

www.imagismphotos.com

www.mccroskery.zenfolio.com

www.pbase.com/daddyo

Yes your correct, I was looking at the total boxed weight, still seems a lot, and odd they still weigh almost the same, guess there packing more paper gumpth with the 600

Still a 120g difference is still not a great deal.

 

[dlarama]

i just received a Yongnuo YN560 III from yongnuostore.com, they included a free radio transmitter and receiver when i paid for expedited shipping. the promo only includes the transmitter, but after politely asking for both they acquiesced. it took two weeks and $110 to get the kit, they threw in a free diffuser, and i've been playing around with it since. radio control, powerful flash, we'll see if it lasts forever... been using it off camera with my EM5, but it works on camera. its totally manual, but thats not a bad thing.

can't say enough how impressed i am with the flash though. great build, etc... powerful.. having a lot of fun with it. inexpensive, too.

 

[amalric]

dlarama wrote:

i just received a Yongnuo YN560 III from yongnuostore.com, they included a free radio transmitter and receiver when i paid for expedited shipping. the promo only includes the transmitter, but after politely asking for both they acquiesced. it took two weeks and $110 to get the kit, they threw in a free diffuser, and i've been playing around with it since. radio control, powerful flash, we'll see if it lasts forever... been using it off camera with my EM5, but it works on camera. its totally manual, but thats not a bad thing.

can't say enough how impressed i am with the flash though. great build, etc... powerful.. having a lot of fun with it. inexpensive, too.

I have just bought a Yongnuo II, and separately triggers. Too bad. But my question however is about RC. It won't work right? You have to set the flash intensity on the flash - it won't be transmitted from the camera?

Am.

 

[hybert46]

Hi everyone,

First of all thank you very much once again for the great advices I got in this thread. As written above, I have just received my brand new Fl-600r. It looks great I am really looking forward to play with it with some real friends. Just for now, I am playing alone with it, trying to get familar with the settings. I got a few questions and maybe you can help me.

- Once I use the RC mode with the little clip on flash on the om-d and the fl-600r off-camera, I just cannot have access to the Super Control Panel anymore. I guess this is normal as I have direct access the flash parameters instead when I press the ok button. Is there a quick way to get access to the other parameters such as ISO, AF etc or do I have to go through the menu?

- With the same configuration, it seems I have two ways to control the flash exposure. I can directly control the TTL value by pressing the OK button but I can also go in the 2nd menu and control the exposure compensation of the flash. What is the difference between these two settings?

Thanks for you help

Simon

 

[Michael Meissner]

hybert46 wrote:

Hi everyone,

First of all thank you very much once again for the great advices I got in this thread. As written above, I have just received my brand new Fl-600r. It looks great I am really looking forward to play with it with some real friends. Just for now, I am playing alone with it, trying to get familar with the settings. I got a few questions and maybe you can help me.

- Once I use the RC mode with the little clip on flash on the om-d and the fl-600r off-camera, I just cannot have access to the Super Control Panel anymore. I guess this is normal as I have direct access the flash parameters instead when I press the ok button. Is there a quick way to get access to the other parameters such as ISO, AF etc or do I have to go through the menu?

If you turn your hymnal to page 97, and carefully read the second bullet of the second group, you will see that if you hit the info key, it will switch between the SCP and the flash control panel.

- With the same configuration, it seems I have two ways to control the flash exposure. I can directly control the TTL value by pressing the OK button but I can also go in the 2nd menu and control the exposure compensation of the flash. What is the difference between these two settings?

In the flash control panel, you can set the flash exposure for each group of flashes. For example, group A could be at +1, group B at -0.3, group C at -0.7. That of course assumes you have 3 separate flashes, each in a different group.

 

[Guy Parsons]

hybert46 wrote:

- Once I use the RC mode with the little clip on flash on the om-d and the fl-600r off-camera, I just cannot have access to the Super Control Panel anymore. I guess this is normal as I have direct access the flash parameters instead when I press the ok button. Is there a quick way to get access to the other parameters such as ISO, AF etc or do I have to go through the menu?

By default the RC menu appears when you press OK, press Info to cycle to the SCP or other screens that you have selected to appear.

- With the same configuration, it seems I have two ways to control the flash exposure. I can directly control the TTL value by pressing the OK button but I can also go in the 2nd menu and control the exposure compensation of the flash. What is the difference between these two settings?

No answer from me to that one, but I seem always to use the SCP flash compensation, I do need to experiment more!

Regards.... Guy

 

[hybert46]

Michael Meissner wrote:

hybert46 wrote:

Hi everyone,

First of all thank you very much once again for the great advices I got in this thread. As written above, I have just received my brand new Fl-600r. It looks great I am really looking forward to play with it with some real friends. Just for now, I am playing alone with it, trying to get familar with the settings. I got a few questions and maybe you can help me.

- Once I use the RC mode with the little clip on flash on the om-d and the fl-600r off-camera, I just cannot have access to the Super Control Panel anymore. I guess this is normal as I have direct access the flash parameters instead when I press the ok button. Is there a quick way to get access to the other parameters such as ISO, AF etc or do I have to go through the menu?

If you turn your hymnal to page 97, and carefully read the second bullet of the second group, you will see that if you hit the info key, it will switch between the SCP and the flash control panel.

Silly of me, I should have read the manual more carefully and experiment a bit more. Now that is clear and easy to do with the info key. Thank you very much.

- With the same configuration, it seems I have two ways to control the flash exposure. I can directly control the TTL value by pressing the OK button but I can also go in the 2nd menu and control the exposure compensation of the flash. What is the difference between these two settings?

In the flash control panel, you can set the flash exposure for each group of flashes. For example, group A could be at +1, group B at -0.3, group C at -0.7. That of course assumes you have 3 separate flashes, each in a different group.

Ok I can see that. What is then the influence of the flash compensation in the 2nd menu. Would it influence all groups of flash or just the one on the camera itself? (I guess I could find that somewhere hidden in the manual as well)

Thank you so much Michael for your advices, you're always here to help. That is very much appreciated!

Simon

--
Simon
Flickr favorites: http://flic.kr/s/aHsjkypfZu
E-M5, 7.5mm fisheye, 9-18mm, 12mm, 20mm, 45mm

 

[hybert46]

Guy Parsons wrote:

hybert46 wrote:

- Once I use the RC mode with the little clip on flash on the om-d and the fl-600r off-camera, I just cannot have access to the Super Control Panel anymore. I guess this is normal as I have direct access the flash parameters instead when I press the ok button. Is there a quick way to get access to the other parameters such as ISO, AF etc or do I have to go through the menu?

By default the RC menu appears when you press OK, press Info to cycle to the SCP or other screens that you have selected to appear.

I've been lazy and I could have found it by reading the manual it seems ;-)

- With the same configuration, it seems I have two ways to control the flash exposure. I can directly control the TTL value by pressing the OK button but I can also go in the 2nd menu and control the exposure compensation of the flash. What is the difference between these two settings?

No answer from me to that one, but I seem always to use the SCP flash compensation, I do need to experiment more!

Regards.... Guy

flash compensation from the SCP seems to do the work indeed. I guess it probably controls all groups of flashes together.

Thanks for the help once again, much appreciated. I think I will have much fun with this new toy.

Simon