Which X to get?

[kernelpanic]

Ok, here's the deal, I'm considering a new camera, at the moment I have narrowed it down to two choices.

What I'm looking for is good IQ, compactness, manual controls and have fun. I love to shoot RAW and fine tune RAW images to my taste but it's been almost a year since I have had the chance to invest any time on PP, so, it has to be a very nice JPEG shooter.I mostly do landscape (on my trips) and macro (whenever I find something interesting), the rest of my pictures are family reunions/parties and the like.

I also would need some accesories, like an extra battery, some filters (UV and CPL are a MUST) and a camera bag.

I thought of the x20 because it does what I want it to do (not a pro, just a hobbyist enjoying photography) and has what I want (manual controls and compactness, at least compared to my current s100fs ).

The list would be:

x20: already explained

x20 filter adapter: you know, the 40->52mm thingy (not fuji, some other brand)

NP-50: extra battery for the camera

fujifilm leather case: this I want the fuji one. No negotiations, period.

B+W UV and CPL filters: bare minimum for my needs.

Total: 820 USD

Now, some extras that I would like to have are (in no particular order):

a) Adjustable neutral density filter (currently looking at the B+W ND 3-1000.60 USD)

b) EF-20 flash 99USD (about 7m @ ISO 100 while the x20 built-in flash is 8m @ ISO 800)

c) Raynox DCR-250 (macro lens accessory, 80USD )

d) Raynox DCR-6600PRO (0.66x wide angle lens accessory, 125USD)

Total optional accessories: 365USD

Total-total: about 1180 USD

When I added up to get the total, it was (is) a lot of money, and for extra 200 USD I could get an XE-1 with the 18-55.

My dilemma is: should I get the really really nicer camera (XE-1) with no extras at all, or should I get a nice but not the best camera with a lot of accessories? Are all the extras that would come along the x20 better than the bare XE-1? Is the XE-1 so really worth it? Is there any m4/3 option (that fits my criteria at the beggining of this post) that offers a better bang for the buck?

As a side-dilemma: if you had to choose only one of the extra accessories for the X20, which one would you choose and why?

I'll appreciate any input on this topic, thanks

Edit: I forgot to say, this new camera will replace my s100fs, as I would sell it to cover part of the cost of the new one.

 

[Limburger]

For landscape maybe an X100 for it's DR?

And an X10 or X20 for walkaround and "macro" (close focus)?

 

[tomhongkong]

Personally, your list of accessories for the X20 would not add much usefulness to my (X10) and I would certainly not buy most of them. However your anticipated use may call for them. Going through your list

a) I would not go for the 52mm filter size, because

Decent 40mm filters are available.. most folks use Marumi but others are available but possibly lower quality (NISI is one, incidentally I use that make for UV and am unable to tell any difference in IQ with it on or off, it is only there to keep my fingers off the lens)

If you need wider than 28mm you can either stitch, or use the panorama feature (Jpegs only) (so no Raynox)

The Macro is pretty useful for me as it stands (so no Raynox)

b) I have been very happy with a China made PU Leather case which looks identical to the Fuji one

c) I have bought an EF X20 flash... more expensive than the one you are proposing, which I use as a slave as I don't like the passport photo look of on camera flash

d) I have not used a variable density ND filter, if one is essential to your photography then my comments about 52mm may be off the mark. However, I would try the camera before deciding that I had to have one

One of the advantages of the X20 is that it is very flexible in a small package. Once you start adding too much stuff to it you might as well go to an interchangeable lens set up, and for me that would be to go with a NEX 6 and 16/50 lens. Hardly any bigger, better viewfinder, options for expansion, better IQ, just a bit more expensive.

good luck with your choice

tom

 

[Gaijin Tourist]

KP, I faced a similar situation when I bought my X10.

I wanted a compact camera that would accept filters, hot shoe, etc., with an OVF a definite must have as well. These requirements eliminated LOTS of little cameras, and since I've always had a soft spot for Fuji, well, there it was.

I bought quite a few accessories for mine as well, maybe you can learn from my experience.

-Buy SEVERAL batteries, I always go out with two spares, just in case. You'll always need one extra, for sure. Lots of guys have luck with the aftermarket brands, I have three OEM Fujis for mine.

-I bought the Fuji hood/52mm adapter and used it originally. It's a real pain in the rear, as dust ALWAYS gets between the filter and the front element thru those 'rangefinder relief' slots in the hood. If this were the only way, I'd have a separate hood/adapter for each filter I used, they're difficult to unscrew at times. I gave up on this, and use the hood 'unloaded' (no filter), and bought the 40mm Marumi clear and CPL, and they're just fine, and screw right into the front of the lens like any normal set-up (and the lens cap fits fine with the clear in place). I tend to prefer Hoyas or B+W's, but so far these are just fine. I've never used variable ND's, so I'll leave that to you . . . .

-The Fuji case is great, you can SMELL the leather.

-I love the look of the EFX-20 flash (all metal like the camera), but the EF20 is more practical for me since it has a bounce head. Fuji's flash implementation is terrific, either with the built-in or the factory hot-shoe flashes, but I prefer the bounce head. The EF42 is better still, but it's bigger and heavier than the camera ! (And they work way better with rechargeable AA's, Eneloops rule !)

-I could live without the Raynox adapters; 28mm is wide enough, the built in macro capability will literally focus to within a hair of the front element and you can stand off in macro at longer focal lengths. Plus for me they'd add to much size for something the camera already does well enough for me already.

My travelling kit is the cased X10, EF20, spare batts for each, Fuji hood, 2 Marumi filters, cable release for the X, and a few cards, all in a very small bag. Small tripod if required. Small enough I don't have to pick just one accessory.

+++++++++

But . . . . deciding between a 20 and an X-E1: An x10 or 20 is a fabulous camera, but will always lose out in an IQ shootout to the APS/C sensor in an XE, so that would be the first question as to what's more important. With the XE you get an EVF, again a big jump over a 10/20. And interchangeable lenses. And on and on. But it's a bit bigger (depending on the lens attached).

So you'll just have to decide if sensor size rules the day or if it's more important to have a tiny kit.

All the Best,

JW

 

[Luc de Schepper]

I own the X100 and the X20. For your needs, critical landscape and macro, I woudl certainly choose the X-E1 with the excellent 18-55mm. The X20 output is of much less quality than from the X-E1. Sensor size does matter ... Add some accessoires (tripod?) later on when the need arises.

 

[kernelpanic]

In this comment I'll reply to you all

@ Limburger:

It's just one option

@ Tomhonkong

I was thinking of the 52mm filters, because (for what I have seen) there's a lot more options for that thread than for the 40.5mm one.

Thanks for your input regarding the raynox accessories, I bought a couple of years ago a macro add on for my s100fs, I was between the raynox and some opteka HD at half the price... I regret not buying the raynox because even though the opteka results weren't that bad, the raynox's were better and the build quality is abyssal... you get what you pay for... That's why I wanted the macro add-on. Regarding the wide angle converter, yes, stitching is an option, but if I could just take the shot without stitching I'd be happier I was looking at the 6600pro because it seems to have very low distortion (though it suffers from flaring) and by watching different pictures with and without the converter, I liked the extra room it offers.

I know the ef-x20 and the ef-20 are different, but, how has your flash worked for you?

The variable density filter would be a nice add-on, but not essential for my usual subjects.

@Gaijintourist

The fuji 52mm/hood you used was the original fuji or some other brand fuji?

Just as I replied to tomhongkong, it seems to be that the offer for 52mm filters is greater than for 40.5. Apart the UV and CPL, my filter wish list includes the fader, a graduated neutral density filter and MAYBE and IR (I'll test if it's worth it using a 67mm IR filter I have). Are there good options for those filters using the 40.5mm thread? (good = tiffen or better)

"-The Fuji case is great, you can SMELL the leather."

I imagine... hopefully soon I'll smell it too!

Regarding the flash, yes, the ef-42 is better than the ef-20, but it's just oh so big (and twice as much). The ef-20 seems to fit my needs. Do you have any input on it's performance?. I'm interested to know if for the extra 100USD the ef-20 costs, does the IQ improve substantially compared to the built-in flash, to the point that it justifies the spending.

Finally, yes, the xe-1 outperforms the x20 (not to mention that I LOVE the camera), but on this particular dilemma, the xe-1 would be completely naked, no camera bag, no filters, no nothing, just the camera + the 18-55, and I won't invest more than around 100-150USD a year on camera gear until, AT LEAST, christmas 2014 (not to mention that for a lens investment, I wouldn't do anything until 2015). In that scenario (naked xe-1 vs fujix20+extragoodies), is the xe-1 worth it?

@Luc de Shepper.

Taking it from the last paragraph I wrote to gaijintourist, even knowing that you're going to be MARRIED to that choice for two years, would you still choose the xe-1 with nothing else for that time? or would yo make the sacrifice and have a more flexible, yet not as astonishing, x20?

To you all: thanks your your input (and your time!). Looking forward to anything else you might want to add

Cheers!

 

[chp]

I would buy an X20 if my priority is weight (or possibly a nex 6 with 16-50, which i am considering as well)

Or if my budget would allow for an E1, and its size is not an issue, then I would go for it.

(I have the feeling they complement, instead of compete, in their purpose)

I certainly would not buy all the extensions you mentioned for the X20. It totally defeats the purpose of a small camera. Furthermore, after having had multiple accessories and lenses in the past I grew tired of carrying them while mostly not needing/using them.

 

[Luc de Schepper]

chp wrote:

I would buy an X20 if my priority is weight (or possibly a nex 6 with 16-50, which i am considering as well)

Or if my budget would allow for an E1, and its size is not an issue, then I would go for it.

(I have the feeling they complement, instead of compete, in their purpose)

I agree. I often take my X20 with me together with my X100. X20 = flexibility of zoom lens, X100 = higher quality of bigger sensor.

I certainly would not buy all the extensions you mentioned for the X20. It totally defeats the purpose of a small camera. Furthermore, after having had multiple accessories and lenses in the past I grew tired of carrying them while mostly not needing/using them.

I agree, again. And for landscape I would go for the best possible image quality, i.e. the X-E1/18-55 combo. The X20 in comparison is of course limited by it's smaller sensor.

On my Flickr page I have sets of images shot with the X20, X100 and X-Pro1 (same output as X-E1). Maybe these are of some help in deciding. Good luck with your choice!

X20 images

X100 images

X-Pro1 images

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lucdeschepper/

 

[Gaijin Tourist]

KP :

I have the OEM Fuji hood / adapter.

Remember, it's 40mm thread, not 40.5 mm. The only name brand I could find was Marumi, this size is ignored by everyone else so far. You could of course use the Fuji adapter and step-up rings to 67 mm or anything else I suppose. I only use the dlear protector and a CPL, so I'm OK.

I bought the EF20, as I tend to use fill-flash 'straight on' direct flash, but when I'm doing traditional flash pictures indoors, I prefer bounce, which the EF20 allows. I'm sorry I can't quote guide numbers, but I believe the EF20 is probably very close in GN to the built in.

As far as what you're going to be living with for two years, I can tell you this. I have an X-S1 and utterly love having an EVF. As much as I like the X10, I get a little aggravated in bright sunlight having to use the aft LCD, it's not that easy to check small details in bright light. With the EVF, that all goes away.

ALL the Best,


JW

 

[jurgvonschmurg]

Personally, I would not accessorize an X20 to the extent you are thinking of doing. I think you'd be very happy with an X20 on its own; no accessories save an extra battery and case, maybe -- maybe -- a CPL filter. Its super macro mode focuses so close (<1cm) it's almost unbelievable. Its flash is adequate for most situations the X20 is suited for.

If you want a better flash, greater range of focal lengths, or better specialty (e.g. macro, filter) performance, then I think you'd be better off going with a system camera, like the X-E1, or something m4/3. The OM-D E-M5 plus a 12-50 (24-100 equivalent) kit lens is just as much as or more of a camera than the X-E1 for about $100 less. Panasonic has some good offerings as well. Generally speaking, the m4/3 system's lenses and accessories are cheaper and more plentiful than those of the X system.

 

[chp]

Best price I found for the Olympus combination is about 1000€, ie 200€ cheaper than the Fuji, in Europe.

With that lens, you loose one stop (compared with the Fuji), and from the review I have seen it is not as sharp (with still a very good review) as the fuji. And it is an electrical zoom, which can seemingly be switched to manual.

At the same time, you gain a wider range on both ends (equ 24-100 vs 28-75) and I think also a better (faster) autofocus.

And Olympus has very good primes also, (available today)

I have not played with any of these, I am talking from readings.

In any case, the X20 is at least half the price of any of these. They just do not play in the same category.

 

[jurgvonschmurg]

I didn't realize it was an electronic zoom. Good to know.

 

[kwa_photo]

If this is going to be your first Fuji, welcome! if not, glad to have you here! Start with which ever camera you are the most excited about and that would make you get out and shoot more and is easily within your budget. For me, it's the X100. But my X10 and X-S1 see plenty of action too! The Fuji X series is addicting...just a fair warning

 

[kernelpanic]

Ok, I just wrote a dedicated reply to each one of you and for I-don't-know-why it never got posted :-x just a blank "reply format" :-x

Anyways, to summarize:

- Marumi 40mm filters will seem to do the job right, in the future, maybe, there will be other marumi (or hoya ) 40mm filters or I'll have money for the step up ring + some other filter.

- Maybe you were right about being too much accessories, I have to be realistic, the only one that seems (at least to me) important is the ef-20, the x20's built-in flash has a GN of 7m @ ISO800 while the ef-20 has a GN of 6 @ ISO100, so, essentially, it'll be about 3 stops more powerful. For the ones that might have used this flash, does it really makes that difference? Because if I keep the x20 shooting @ ISO 800 or below, then strictly "SNR-wise", there wont be that much of a difference with the xe-1 (in reslution the xe-1 obviously crushes the x20) as to justify spending almost the double of an x20 for an xe-1.

- The price difference becomes:

x20+leathercase+extrabatt+40mmCPL+40mmUV=790 USD

with the flash: 880USD

xe-1+18-55mm = 1400 USD

- Has anyone seen the 6600 (or any other WA converter) on the x20? How do they work? From all the other accessories, this was the one I was more interested on after the flash, and if it does a very very nice job (and I get the raise I'm expecting) maybe that'll be my x-mas present

-Fuji makes superb products. I'm still in love with my s100fs, however, the x series has wrapped around my heart, brain, lungs, and other body parts, and I'm just in love with them since the beggining, manual controls rule, and fuji nailed it with the x series, not only on the quality of the product, which most (good) manufacturers achieve, but also, with the experience it provides. The X series, more than a camera family is a style of photography.

Thank you all for your time and answers

 

[Alumna Gorp]

kernelpanic wrote:

Ok, here's the deal, I'm considering a new camera, at the moment I have narrowed it down to two choices.

What I'm looking for is good IQ, compactness, manual controls and have fun. I love to shoot RAW and fine tune RAW images to my taste but it's been almost a year since I have had the chance to invest any time on PP, so, it has to be a very nice JPEG shooter.I mostly do landscape (on my trips) and macro (whenever I find something interesting), the rest of my pictures are family reunions/parties and the like.

I also would need some accesories, like an extra battery, some filters (UV and CPL are a MUST) and a camera bag.

I thought of the x20 because it does what I want it to do (not a pro, just a hobbyist enjoying photography) and has what I want (manual controls and compactness, at least compared to my current s100fs ).

The list would be:

x20: already explained

x20 filter adapter: you know, the 40->52mm thingy (not fuji, some other brand)

NP-50: extra battery for the camera

fujifilm leather case: this I want the fuji one. No negotiations, period.

B+W UV and CPL filters: bare minimum for my needs.

Total: 820 USD

Now, some extras that I would like to have are (in no particular order):

a) Adjustable neutral density filter (currently looking at the B+W ND 3-1000.60 USD)

b) EF-20 flash 99USD (about 7m @ ISO 100 while the x20 built-in flash is 8m @ ISO 800)

c) Raynox DCR-250 (macro lens accessory, 80USD )

d) Raynox DCR-6600PRO (0.66x wide angle lens accessory, 125USD)

Total optional accessories: 365USD

Total-total: about 1180 USD

When I added up to get the total, it was (is) a lot of money, and for extra 200 USD I could get an XE-1 with the 18-55.

My dilemma is: should I get the really really nicer camera (XE-1) with no extras at all, or should I get a nice but not the best camera with a lot of accessories? Are all the extras that would come along the x20 better than the bare XE-1? Is the XE-1 so really worth it? Is there any m4/3 option (that fits my criteria at the beggining of this post) that offers a better bang for the buck?

As a side-dilemma: if you had to choose only one of the extra accessories for the X20, which one would you choose and why?

I'll appreciate any input on this topic, thanks

Edit: I forgot to say, this new camera will replace my s100fs, as I would sell it to cover part of the cost of the new one.

The only accessories I use is a third party adapter with hood, an old 52mm linear polariser that doubles as an ND filter, and an old Olympus T20 flash, ER case and a spare battery.

No idea why you think you might need a macro adapter.

 

[Midwest]

kernelpanic wrote:
My dilemma is: should I get the really really nicer camera (XE-1) with no extras at all, or should I get a nice but not the best camera with a lot of accessories? Are all the extras that would come along the x20 better than the bare XE-1? Is the XE-1 so really worth it? Is there any m4/3 option (that fits my criteria at the beggining of this post) that offers a better bang for the buck?

I would rather have a fine home with minimal decor than a trailer crammed with bric a brac. Get the better camera. You will be glad you did. All those add-on lens adapters etc. on the smaller camera will only get you smaller-sensor image quality. Buy the better camera and leave the mountain of accessories behind.

--
It's nice to say that nice pictures are nice.

 

[chp]

Are you sure you need such a flash ? I probably would go without it or at least try without it first. Still the same story of carrying more things than needed.

The main reason I think I may need it for would be for day light fill-ins.

For inside pictures, i read it has a tiltable head and can work as a slave. I would want both these if i would be to buy it.

Just my 2 cents

 

[Viramati]

For me the whole point of the X20 is that it is a small lightweight camera that I can fit in a jacket pocket so anything that makes it larger etc really defeats the whole object. the only 'extra' I have is a soft release button on the shutter. I you don't need a pocketable camera then I should imagine that the XE1 would be a better camera as long as you can live with an EVF as opposed to an OVF. Also remember the the OOC Jpegs from the X20 are not the best in the world especially it would seem for landscape. I only shoot RAW so this isn't an issue for me but I believe the XE1 jpegs with the larger sensor should be better

--
David
www.dpsampson.zenfolio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/viramati/

 

[Alumna Gorp]

Viramati wrote:

For me the whole point of the X20 is that it is a small lightweight camera that I can fit in a jacket pocket so anything that makes it larger etc really defeats the whole object. the only 'extra' I have is a soft release button on the shutter. I you don't need a pocketable camera then I should imagine that the XE1 would be a better camera as long as you can live with an EVF as opposed to an OVF. Also remember the the OOC Jpegs from the X20 are not the best in the world especially it would seem for landscape. I only shoot RAW so this isn't an issue for me but I believe the XE1 jpegs with the larger sensor should be better

--
David
www.dpsampson.zenfolio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/viramati/

The x10 and x20 are killer machines when used with creative flash, remember the camera uses a leaf shutter so you can sync flash at all shutter speeds right up to 1/4000 second.

DSLR`s do not have this luxury.

http://www.frankdoorhof.com/site/2012/04/fuji-x10-review/

 

[Frederick M]

I would buy the X-S2


"an artist, a man, a failure, must proceed" e e cummings