Why there is no firmware update for RX1 or RX100?

[Chris Crevasse]

No one's asking me this question, but I'm going to answer anyway with respect to the RX1. Generally, I think Sony did a fine job with the RX1. The firmware updates I would like to see are:

(1) Allow user-selectable minimum shutter speed in auto ISO. I have found 1/80 sec to be too slow. The workaround is to stay in manual mode, but I would prefer to normally shoot aperture-priority, especially because, in manual mode, sometimes the shutter speed gets changed without my noticing it.

(2) Allow items in the function menu to be user selectable, or at least add quality to the function menu. To me it is bizarre that soft-skin effect and auto portrait framing are in the function menu, but to change quality you either have to assign a button to it or dive into the menu.

(3) Add AF to the slower continuous shooting mode. The manual suggests that AF is locked only with speed-priority continuous shooting, but in fact it is locked with both forms of continuous shooting.

(4) When shooting raw plus jpeg, allow the jpeg quality to be x-fine.

(5) Put a battery indicator in the "no disp. info" shooting display.

 

[tesilab]

Piginho wrote:

tesilab wrote:

Is not an oxymoron at all.

"An oxymoron is a figure of speech in which incongruous or seemingly contradictory terms appear side by side."

Dictionary definition and on this basis, Auto ISO in Manual Mode, is an oxymoron. After all, automatic and manual are diametrically opposed terms. I was making a point regarding use of language, grammar etc., not necessarily my own best suit, but I was not suggesting that it was a bad idea.

Manual mode refers to manual exposure. You determine how much light comes in via the aperture and the shutter speed. None of the modes have names that reference ISO. ISO just determines the sensitivity to the light, in whatever mode.

So it still no oxymoron.

It just wasn't possible with film.

By the way it was possible with film, but just not to the same degree, as many films had wide exposure latitude

In film cameras you set the ISO when you put in the film, if you switch ISO in the middle, you have a bit of a film processing problem.

.

It is the best mode since sliced bread.

Didn't know that RX100 had a bread slicing mode.....in fact I've never seen any camera with this mode!

I never claimed it was the RX1 that had that mode. It was probably an older Minolta model.

Think about it: there are three main parameters--excluding exposure compensation--that affect exposure. You should be able to manually select one of them, while the camera selects the other two, or select two of them, while the camera selects the third, or all three.

I assume you refer to shutter speed, aperture and sensitivity of capture medium (which can be sensor or film). You're right to exclude exposure compensation, as it's just an adjustment of one of the three variables. I think that if you're mainly shooting JPEGs, the oxymoronic "Auto ISO in Manual Mode" would be very useful. Less so for RAW shooters I believe, as the camera has a native ISO of 125 and the sensitivity of the sensor in real terms doesn't change just because you set another ISO value.

There is a difference. The ISO value doesn't just set a reference point. It is a gain adjustment. Increasing the ISO boosts the signal, which also boosts noise. In fact sometimes you do better to keep the ISO lower (underexpose) and boost the shadows in a raw processor.

 

[earful]

KnightFall wrote:

Are they just perfect so that Sony does not care to release a new firmware for these cameras? Almost all other manufacturers update their top of the line series several times if not once.

I am not here for trolling, I use these 2 cameras almost daily, just wondering the reason behind this.

possibly there has not been a very loud chorus of complaints that are really firmware related. in general the rx1 appears to be have been well-received by reviewers. between the lens itself and the wonderfully easy to work with files, the niggles have been obscured. faster (and better) af is not even at the top of everyone's list (though i would like to see it, too). in that context, i would imagine that getting the assembly line up to speed so that sample variation is reduced to almost zero is more important than a firmware update from the manufacturer's point of view.

 

[areichow]

Because reviews don't push hard enough. If every review out there had corrected their score for the RX100 down by quite a bit because of the ridiculous firmware restrictions, this might have caused Sony to change something. This is how it happened for the Fuji X100. Reviews complained loudly about the handling and Fuji brought a firmware update. I think, the firmware should always be a big factor in reviews because developers can fix this in market so this is the only point where reviews can have impact on an already existing model.

Just out of curiosity, what restrictions are there in the current firmware? There seem to be fewer than Canon and Nikon enthusiast compacts - e.g. you're not stuck with base ISO on exposures of one second or more.

 

[warrj]

I'd like to see a fix for the underexposed videos the RX100 produces. The workaround of using an exposure compensated memory setting for video is too clunky.

 

[therobbot]

I'm not sure if there are more restrictions than in other cameras but just a few I can think of from the top of my head:

- No Auto-ISO in Manual and no maximum shutter time setting in A-Mode
- Not possible to set all possible ISO values manually
- When using JPG+RAW some things don't work without a reason. For example when you take a HDR picture you have to switch to JPG only even though it also saves a non-HDR picture. Why not do the same in JPG+RAW? It doesn't make sense.
- No easy way to reset to default settings in P/A/S/M modes.
- When using DMF, front wheel becomes useless
- Not possible to set front wheel differently for each mode. So when you set the front wheel to something other than standard, it breaks scene mode and panorama mode for example.
- No easy way to switch between the MR settings other than either going into the menu or going out of and back into MR mode.
- Camera doesn't remember creativity settings in the auto modes
- No possibility to manually set white balance with a white surface in MR-mode
- Manual white balance setting not available from Fn-Menu - only from menu or when putting white balance on one of the ring keys
- Fn menu layout completely different from menu layout when using the ring keys (e.g. when you put DRO/HDR setting on right ring key, you don't have to scroll through all possible settings but when you use it from Fn-menu you have to scroll through them all)

Sure, many of these restrictions only matter since the camera is so capable and allows many different settings. Still, I think the firmware is badly designed.

 

[sharkfeeder]

KnightFall wrote:

Are they just perfect so that Sony does not care to release a new firmware for these cameras? Almost all other manufacturers update their top of the line series several times if not once.

I am not here for trolling, I use these 2 cameras almost daily, just wondering the reason behind this.

I can only speak to the RX1, which is definitely in need of a firmware fix for the shutter button/battery depletion issue. Even if the camera is turned off the power will continue to drain if the shutter button is depressed, even lightly. This means that if you leave it in a bag overnight, and that bag is even moderately snug there's a good chance that you will wake up to an empty battery. That needs to be fixed. There was a similar issue with the NEX-5, I believe, and it was addressed with a firmware update.

 

[digitalphotographer]

sharkfeeder wrote:

KnightFall wrote:

Are they just perfect so that Sony does not care to release a new firmware for these cameras? Almost all other manufacturers update their top of the line series several times if not once.

I am not here for trolling, I use these 2 cameras almost daily, just wondering the reason behind this.

I can only speak to the RX1, which is definitely in need of a firmware fix for the shutter button/battery depletion issue. Even if the camera is turned off the power will continue to drain if the shutter button is depressed, even lightly. This means that if you leave it in a bag overnight, and that bag is even moderately snug there's a good chance that you will wake up to an empty battery. That needs to be fixed. There was a similar issue with the NEX-5, I believe, and it was addressed with a firmware update.

If this battery drain issue is true, I can't believe there isn't a louder noise or more complaints about it yet?!

 

[ET2]

KnightFall wrote:

Are they just perfect so that Sony does not care to release a new firmware for these cameras? Almost all other manufacturers update their top of the line series several times if not once.

I am not here for trolling, I use these 2 cameras almost daily, just wondering the reason behind this.

When you bought the camera, was there ever a promise of firmware upgrade? If yes, you can demand it. If not, you can just hope it will happen, but don't make your buying decisions on "future" firmware upgrades.

Most p&s cameras never get firmware upgrades, so I don't really believe you will ever see firmware upgrade on RX100. It's possible that RX1, given it's price and status, might get a new firmware, but I won't hold my breadth.

 

[MiamiDolphin]

firmware updates are few and far between.

Sony wants you to upgrade your camera not your firm wear :-D

 

[KnightFall]

ET2 wrote:

KnightFall wrote:

Are they just perfect so that Sony does not care to release a new firmware for these cameras? Almost all other manufacturers update their top of the line series several times if not once.

I am not here for trolling, I use these 2 cameras almost daily, just wondering the reason behind this.

When you bought the camera, was there ever a promise of firmware upgrade? If yes, you can demand it. If not, you can just hope it will happen, but don't make your buying decisions on "future" firmware upgrades.

Most p&s cameras never get firmware upgrades, so I don't really believe you will ever see firmware upgrade on RX100. It's possible that RX1, given it's price and status, might get a new firmware, but I won't hold my breadth.

Yes, there was. and yes i am demanding it here. Any problem?

 

[digitalphotographer]

MiamiDolphin wrote:

firmware updates are few and far between.

Sony wants you to upgrade your camera not your firm wear :-D

If i know they will continue to develop firmwares, i will also continue to buy new Sony cameras.

But if they ignore existing users, then I may not buy from them again.

 

[ET2]

KnightFall wrote:

ET2 wrote:

KnightFall wrote:

Are they just perfect so that Sony does not care to release a new firmware for these cameras? Almost all other manufacturers update their top of the line series several times if not once.

I am not here for trolling, I use these 2 cameras almost daily, just wondering the reason behind this.

When you bought the camera, was there ever a promise of firmware upgrade? If yes, you can demand it. If not, you can just hope it will happen, but don't make your buying decisions on "future" firmware upgrades.

Most p&s cameras never get firmware upgrades, so I don't really believe you will ever see firmware upgrade on RX100. It's possible that RX1, given it's price and status, might get a new firmware, but I won't hold my breadth.

Yes, there was. and yes i am demanding it here. Any problem?

Post the link where Sony promised future firmware upgrades. There isn't any? Good. I do not believe you will ever see a firmware upgrade.

 

[ET2]

digitalphotographer wrote:

MiamiDolphin wrote:

firmware updates are few and far between.

Sony wants you to upgrade your camera not your firm wear :-D

If i know they will continue to develop firmwares, i will also continue to buy new Sony cameras.

Nice .. so Sony should be spending million of dollars paying to engineers whose job would be to keep "developing" firmwares for the old cameras that are no longer in production and bring no profit to the company. Nice waste of resources there.

But if they ignore existing users, then I may not buy from them again.

You are welcome to sell your RX100 and buy a camera that gets firmware upgrades for the next 10 years.

 

[Max Bancroft]

If there was going to be an upgrade to the RX1 firmware then surely the RX1R would have been released with the new firmware already on board.

 

[Donald Chin]

tesilab wrote:

Is not an oxymoron at all. It just wasn't possible with film.
It is the best mode since sliced bread. Think about it: there are three main parameters--excluding exposure compensation--that affect exposure. You should be able to manually select one of them, while the camera selects the other two, or select two of them, while the camera selects the third, or all three.

Forget the current names of the modes, they are historical. ISO was not 'adjustable' in the era of film cameras when these modes acquired their names. So you are biased in favor of the historical name of the mode.

I shoot almost exclusively with auto ISO in manual mode on the RX1. I *know* what aperture I want. I *know* what shutter speed is acceptable. I just want the ISO to conform to those priorities. With exp compensation dial, it's perfect.

+1

That's what I did back to the date I got my D700, right now all my cameras operate in Auto ISO, M mode, +/1 EV, for long time exposure, certainly I'll turn them back to manual ISO.

 

[Donald Chin]

nplanet wrote:

The Sony RX1 definitely needs a faster AF. I really do not have any other complains (for the RX1 that is).

Nikon has updated their firmware for D4 5 times in 12 months, they asked me how I feel about their latest firmware version V1.05 lately and I told them from V1.03 onward the AF is even less responsive than previous! ;-)

 

[therobbot]

Nice .. so Sony should be spending million of dollars paying to engineers whose job would be to keep "developing" firmwares for the old cameras that are no longer in production and bring no profit to the company. Nice waste of resources there.

First of all, Sony should spend more time on a good UI design in the first place.

Second, since when is either the RX100 or the RX1 out of production?

Third, yes, they should absolutely update their firmwares if it helps making their products better because it will lead to satisfied customers who will buy the brand again in the future, so nothing is wasted. I'd even be willing to pay a small fee for new firmwares as long as they're updating features not fixing bugs.

Fourth, it would not cost millions of dollars since none of the changes are hard to do. I'm a firmware developer myself. Changing these things and testing would take maybe a man-week.

Fifth: Companies could start to open up their firmwares (at least UI level) for add-ons. This would be a win-win (unless companies plan to sell new cameras just by adding yet another feature)

 

[tesilab]

ET2 wrote:

Nice .. so Sony should be spending million of dollars paying to engineers whose job would be to keep "developing" firmwares for the old cameras that are no longer in production and bring no profit to the company. Nice waste of resources there.

Sony could spend even 100k employing on engineer to do occasional tweaks to firmware in response reviewer and user feedback. It would be the best money they ever spent. Great hardware is exciting, but there is now so many superb quality options that goodwill towards the company will really start to factor in. Users want to feel good about the company and how it supports them, and not just feel good about the hardware quality.

It's infuriating how little extra effort and expense on the part of a camera manufacturer is required to iron out the rough spots and achieve more of the potential of the hardware. This gap between potential and reality constantly gets narrowed by companies the like of Fuji, even though they admittedly start with a less polished product.

 

[becasabot]

tesilab wrote:

ET2 wrote:

Nice .. so Sony should be spending million of dollars paying to engineers whose job would be to keep "developing" firmwares for the old cameras that are no longer in production and bring no profit to the company. Nice waste of resources there.

Sony could spend even 100k employing on engineer to do occasional tweaks to firmware in response reviewer and user feedback. It would be the best money they ever spent. Great hardware is exciting, but there is now so many superb quality options that goodwill towards the company will really start to factor in. Users want to feel good about the company and how it supports them, and not just feel good about the hardware quality.

It's infuriating how little extra effort and expense on the part of a camera manufacturer is required to iron out the rough spots and achieve more of the potential of the hardware. This gap between potential and reality constantly gets narrowed by companies the like of Fuji, even though they admittedly start with a less polished product.

I think:

Cost of firmware updates for many fixes are almost zero.

Offering firmware updates brings profits in the long term.

Firmware updates do not cut down sales.

Sony disappointed me, I was expecting them to surprise us for the case of RX1, a prestige project.

I think:

(Attractive design + hi-tech implementation + reliable product + expensive price) x aftersales apathy = Same Old Notable Yuppie