So how fast is your system?

That kit sounds as if it could be a good setup for you, Dave. One nice thing about the WD JBs is that if you decide to make the change to SCSI later, you can clone your drives over to the SCSI for OS/Software and working space, then put the JB drives into Firewire cases and use them for local archival. If you are on a budget, I'd really consider the Athlon XP -- the performance of the top Athlons are equal or superior to all but the very fastest Intel CPU at a significant price benefit, and in a great many working applications the top two Athlons equal the performance of even that expensive Intel flagship. The rest of your proposed setup sounds like a very good foundation. This will be far more than an incremental improvement -- it's likely that you'll see a five-fold performance increase.

If you need help acquiring, assembling and configuring, let me know.

Ron
Thanks for your help, Ron. I don't have the kind of money to spend
for the setup you have (just your hard drives and controller are
over a grand.) When I first started kicking around the idea of a
new system, I thought about SCSI, but I'm trying to avoid the
noise, heat, power, complexity, and especially cost, and was hoping
I could get by with 2 WD JBs instead. I'm also looking at a P4 2.53
on the new Intel MB with the 845PE chipset, since I want the fast
333 DDR while avoiding RAMBUS. Dual processors again sound a bit
complicated and expensive for me right now. Ditto RAID. I was also
considering 1 gig of DDR CAS 2.0 RAM, a Matrox 550, and the
assorted CDRW, etc.

It sounds like this setup could give me a big boost in most of
these imaging tasks. I want to be sure I'm not throwing money away
on only an incremental improvement. Any additional input
appreciated.

Thanks to all for your help.

Dave
--
Ron Reznick
http://digital-images.net
http://trapagon.com
 
I am assuming that Ron is using one of the Tyans for AMD SMP.

You can get a very nice, sold Tyan S2460 ($160) that will run Athlon XP's in SMP (there is no difference like the old P2-3). Get two XP 2000+ ($90 each) and 1GB of PC2100 ECC DDR ($300 for Kingston). The get either a Promise FastTrak 133 or an Adaptec 1200 ATA RAID controller. Two (2) cheap 120G IBM 120GXPs ($135 each), a quality Antec case with 400W "True Power" will cost about $100. A GForce 4 Ti4200/64 for about $120 (faster than ATI 9000 Pro), a $75 48X CDRW, and you're all set.

A grand total with small incidentals like Floppy, KB, Optical Intellimouse, and you're in for only about $1,200. (Plus monitor).

Brendan
--
Blah, blah, blah, camera, blah, blah, blah, lenses, blah, blah, blah, no ego.
 
Nice to hear the specs of your virtual dream machine (= machine in
your dreams).
Just give answer to the question of the OP: What are the times for
several calculations and loading etc. Tempering your arrogance
should be a good act of the day.
C'mon by, oh ye of little faith!

It's what we do for a living. You know, as in "tools of the trade." I would no more doubt a professional photographer's claims that he has a D1x with a 600/4 AF-S lens then you should ours that we build--and use--systems like this all day long.

You should see our new, soon-to-be-released, offering of a FIVE (5) TERABYTE (TB) Serial ATA enterprise server that fits ENTIRELY into ONE (1) 4U chassis.

Let's see SCSI do THAT!

Looking for a job? We're hiring.

Brendan
--
Blah, blah, blah, camera, blah, blah, blah, lenses, blah, blah, blah, no ego.
 
Its way too fast for any photographic software, but it makes 3d
models in AutoCad move VERY smoothly! Its overkill!
Wait until you see what's lurking just around the corner! Q1 '03 you will see the new Xeons at 133FSB (or 533, if you buy into it) and by Q3 will be at 3.8GHz @ 533.

AMD had better get Opteron out soon if they hope to maintain any parity. Intel really wants to push them back into obscurity, in a BAD way.

Brendan
--
Blah, blah, blah, camera, blah, blah, blah, lenses, blah, blah, blah, no ego.
 
gald to see you guys came back down to earth to help poor Dave out here. i second these latest couple of posts (although i'm not as big a fan of the Athlon as Ron but that's neither here nor there). focus on upgrading core components (bus, video, ram, and processor) and you will see significant improvements. after that, the improvements become incremental as you upgrade secondary components like drives.

another reference point, i performed the test on my 666mhz Dell this morning with 512mb RAM and plain old 80GB 7200 RPM IDE drives - 6 secs to open one NEF. varied between 70-85 seconds to open a group of 10. ...dav
 
I was trying to spec out an upgrade for him that for just a couple of hundred bucks he could see some really decent gains without dumping his entire rig. I was also looking at component reuse down the road. The 10K RPM drive could be moved to anything he buys. Only the RAM might have to be tossed - and it's relatively cheap.

A full-blown SCSI upgrade with dual-cpu, all new memory and motherboard is gonna be at least $1,500 to $2,000. If he can afford it/justify it, then he should go for it. I got the impression that he was trying to be frugal.

If you can afford it, SCSI is a good choice from a performance perspective. Your drives are going to be more expensive (about $100 more per drive on average), but you do get the gains in performance.

Do you REALLY need that kind of performance for editing stills? I say you don't. A 10k RPM IDE drive on an IDE100 controller will be more than enough. Anything beyond that is just doing it 'cause you can.

If you're saving 3-4 hours a week with only a few seconds saved per file, your volume is probably much different than most photographers. Let's say you save 10 seconds per file operation. To save a minute, you've opened six files. 60 minutes is 360 files. For 3-4 hours of savings, that's between 1,080-1,440 files/week, or more than 200 images a day. That's a lot of volume. It's easy to justify a few thousand dollars in hardware at that kind of volume. If you're someone who is only moving say 50 images a week, it's a lot more difficult.

I primarily do video. My main system (I have five) is a dual 2.4GHz with 1Gb RAM, an U2W SCSI with a Medea 4/120 VideoRaid, Matrox G550 dual head and a removable IDE drive bay for archiving. It's a screamer.

Dave
Ron
There's been a lot of talk here recently about what kind of
computer everyone has. How about some real world results as far as
the speed of doing basic operations? I ask this because I'm in the
process of either upgrading or replacing my computer, which I use
almost exclusively for Photoshop and Nikon View work, and am trying
to figure out how much real world improvement I could expect.

Any of you folks with a fast system care to time a few tests for
comparison's sake? For instance, to open a D100 raw NEF (full res,
not compressed) in PS (6.0) using the NV (5) plug-in takes me 13
sec just to get to the Raw Adjustments dialog box, and another 36
sec after that to put the picture up on the screen in PS. To
convert it from 16 to 8 bit takes 7 secs. To rotate the canvas 17.3
degrees CCW (seemed like a good, weird number for PS to crunch)
takes 31 sec for the original 16 bit file. In NV, just to open a
photo full size from the thumbnail takes 18 sec.

I'm chugging along with a Celeron 500, 256 meg, 40g 7200 RPM cheapy
Maxtor, on-board video. By the time I add up the cost of my
ultimate system, I'm half tempted to go back and just try to crank
this one up with faster CPU, 512 RAM, and a faster HD to see what
kind of improvement I get.

Any input appreciated!

Thanks!

Dave
--
Ron Reznick
http://digital-images.net
http://trapagon.com
 
I was trying to spec out an upgrade for him that for just a couple
of hundred bucks he could see some really decent gains without
dumping his entire rig. I was also looking at component reuse down
the road. The 10K RPM drive could be moved to anything he buys.
Only the RAM might have to be tossed - and it's relatively cheap.
If he already has the drive, then naturally you would move it to a new system. If it's an older generation Cheetah, like a 9 or 18 GB, then many of the newer, cheaper IDE drives will outperform it in many areas--most notably sustained transfer. It's still far from unusable however ;-)
A full-blown SCSI upgrade with dual-cpu, all new memory and
motherboard is gonna be at least $1,500 to $2,000. If he can
afford it/justify it, then he should go for it. I got the
impression that he was trying to be frugal.
Aren't we all. Upgrading an existing, older system rapidly reaches a poor ROI versus swallowing hard and getting a new ship.
If you can afford it, SCSI is a good choice from a performance
perspective. Your drives are going to be more expensive (about
$100 more per drive on average), but you do get the gains in
performance.
Quite a bit more than $100. A 146 GB Cheetah will cost you $1,000, whereas a 200GB Maxtor or WD will cost you $350--soon much less. I'd rather have three (3) 200GB drive--that you can stripe or use for data integrity with RAID 5--over a single 146GB drive almost any day.
Do you REALLY need that kind of performance for editing stills? I
say you don't. A 10k RPM IDE drive on an IDE100 controller will be
more than enough. Anything beyond that is just doing it 'cause you
can.
When they come out with a 10K IDE drive that will be the case, but they do not exist yet. SATA is next, but HD manufacturers are reluctant to force their SCSI cash cow to compete directly with IDE. They've been avoiding that like the plague for years now, even though the technology has existed for quite some time.
If you're saving 3-4 hours a week with only a few seconds saved per
file, your volume is probably much different than most
photographers. Let's say you save 10 seconds per file operation.
To save a minute, you've opened six files. 60 minutes is 360
files. For 3-4 hours of savings, that's between 1,080-1,440
files/week, or more than 200 images a day. That's a lot of volume.
It's easy to justify a few thousand dollars in hardware at that
kind of volume. If you're someone who is only moving say 50 images
a week, it's a lot more difficult.
Yep, Ron and a few others have a heavily optimized workflow that can reap benefits from small tweaks. Most of the corporate world wouldn't be any more productive with a maxed out P4 3 GHz over a Celeron 500. But then again, Word ain't exactly a resource hog either ;-)
I primarily do video. My main system (I have five) is a dual
2.4GHz with 1Gb RAM, an U2W SCSI with a Medea 4/120 VideoRaid,
Matrox G550 dual head and a removable IDE drive bay for archiving.
It's a screamer.
That's similar to what we use and recommend. At 2.4 you're running Xeons, but there's little difference between expensive Xeons and competing, cheaper Athlon MP's. The only thing that REALLY cranks on a P4-class processor and leaves ANY AMD chip in the dust is Lightwave. If you're a Lightwave user, AMD's are a waste as the P4 trounces them by a ridiculously large margin. 3DS Max, Cinema 4D, and even our Canopus DV Storm SE Plus realizes little difference between the two, as long as everything else is equal.

When all is said and done, SCSI still rules the high end, but at a cost. Especially on heavy transactional web servers that hit the DB a lot for small amounts of information.

Brendan
--
Blah, blah, blah, camera, blah, blah, blah, lenses, blah, blah, blah, no ego.
 
Hi Dave

Are you the PS Dave Brennen?

I have a PIII 1000 with a WD 80 gig JB and Matrox 450 (32 m) Video card. I can open an NEF, with a little tweeking included, (WB and EV) in 30 seconds. I can rotate 17.5 degrees in 3 seconds. My system can't compete with the equipment contest going on here but this is the info you ask for ;-)

Best regards

RB
 
There's been a lot of talk here recently about what kind of
computer everyone has. How about some real world results as far as
the speed of doing basic operations? I ask this because I'm in the
process of either upgrading or replacing my computer, which I use
almost exclusively for Photoshop and Nikon View work, and am trying
to figure out how much real world improvement I could expect.

Any of you folks with a fast system care to time a few tests for
comparison's sake? For instance, to open a D100 raw NEF (full res,
not compressed) in PS (6.0) using the NV (5) plug-in takes me 13
sec just to get to the Raw Adjustments dialog box, and another 36
sec after that to put the picture up on the screen in PS. To
convert it from 16 to 8 bit takes 7 secs. To rotate the canvas 17.3
degrees CCW (seemed like a good, weird number for PS to crunch)
takes 31 sec for the original 16 bit file. In NV, just to open a
photo full size from the thumbnail takes 18 sec.

I'm chugging along with a Celeron 500, 256 meg, 40g 7200 RPM cheapy
Maxtor, on-board video. By the time I add up the cost of my
ultimate system, I'm half tempted to go back and just try to crank
this one up with faster CPU, 512 RAM, and a faster HD to see what
kind of improvement I get.

Any input appreciated!

Thanks!

Dave
Try here Dave....dealing with them for years.
http://www.tigerdirect.com/index.asp?SRCCODE=WEM359C

Boris
http://public.fotki.com/borysd/
 
System just built is

AMD 2200XP CPU
80Gb Maxtor ATA133 7200
128Mb Parhelia graphics card (Matrox)
1024Mb PC2700 RAM
Epox 8K3A+ Mobo
Windows XP Pro
Photoshop 7
Capture 3

Now the timings:

Open D100 Raw NEF in PS7 - 1 sec
Fully opened in PS7 - 6.5 secs
Convert 16 bit to 8 bit - instantaneous
Rotate CCW 17.3 degrees - 3 secs

Fast enough for me. I suggest a serious upgrade for you. Your times would drive me nuts. (Mine were the same as yours until I built this new machine)
There's been a lot of talk here recently about what kind of
computer everyone has. How about some real world results as far as
the speed of doing basic operations? I ask this because I'm in the
process of either upgrading or replacing my computer, which I use
almost exclusively for Photoshop and Nikon View work, and am trying
to figure out how much real world improvement I could expect.

Any of you folks with a fast system care to time a few tests for
comparison's sake? For instance, to open a D100 raw NEF (full res,
not compressed) in PS (6.0) using the NV (5) plug-in takes me 13
sec just to get to the Raw Adjustments dialog box, and another 36
sec after that to put the picture up on the screen in PS. To
convert it from 16 to 8 bit takes 7 secs. To rotate the canvas 17.3
degrees CCW (seemed like a good, weird number for PS to crunch)
takes 31 sec for the original 16 bit file. In NV, just to open a
photo full size from the thumbnail takes 18 sec.

I'm chugging along with a Celeron 500, 256 meg, 40g 7200 RPM cheapy
Maxtor, on-board video. By the time I add up the cost of my
ultimate system, I'm half tempted to go back and just try to crank
this one up with faster CPU, 512 RAM, and a faster HD to see what
kind of improvement I get.

Any input appreciated!

Thanks!

Dave
 
OK, I'm a geek, too. So who's box did you use and how are you cooling it?

What was your total cost?
 
Ron:

It's my understanding that PS7 is single threaded. How do you make use of more than one processor?
 
It's real easy Dave. Just walk on down to your local Apple store and take your pick! The new iMac with the 17" screen and DVD burner looks and performs beautifully. Don't be put off be "clock speed" alone, it also depends on how all that info is travelling around the rest of the computer. If numbers mean a lot to you check out the new G4 dual processor units – they're awesome.

The main advantage of using a Mac of course is not having to use Windows and don't listen to the doomsayers telling you there's no good software for the Mac – that's "el torro poopoo".

You must have heard the old saying, "Windows 2000, or as it used to be known, Mac 1989"

Over to you guys!
--
Big C
 
PS is multi-threaded and has been for quite some time.
Ron:

It's my understanding that PS7 is single threaded. How do you make
use of more than one processor?
--
JimKa
 
I have five PCs right now. My next system will be a Mac.

Dave
---
It's real easy Dave. Just walk on down to your local Apple store
and take your pick! The new iMac with the 17" screen and DVD burner
looks and performs beautifully. Don't be put off be "clock speed"
alone, it also depends on how all that info is travelling around
the rest of the computer. If numbers mean a lot to you check out
the new G4 dual processor units – they're awesome.

The main advantage of using a Mac of course is not having to use
Windows and don't listen to the doomsayers telling you there's no
good software for the Mac – that's "el torro poopoo".
You must have heard the old saying, "Windows 2000, or as it used to
be known, Mac 1989"

Over to you guys!
--
Big C
 
Not nearly fast enough...

NEF Dialog - 1 sec
NEF Display in PS7 - 8 sec
CCW 17.3 Rotate - 3 sec

System:

P4 2.4GHZ 533 w/ 1GB Corsair CAS2 DDR333 Memory
2 WD 120GB 7200 RPM drives in Raid 0 arrays
NVidia 4600 with 128MB mem
There's been a lot of talk here recently about what kind of
computer everyone has. How about some real world results as far as
the speed of doing basic operations? I ask this because I'm in the
process of either upgrading or replacing my computer, which I use
almost exclusively for Photoshop and Nikon View work, and am trying
to figure out how much real world improvement I could expect.

Any of you folks with a fast system care to time a few tests for
comparison's sake? For instance, to open a D100 raw NEF (full res,
not compressed) in PS (6.0) using the NV (5) plug-in takes me 13
sec just to get to the Raw Adjustments dialog box, and another 36
sec after that to put the picture up on the screen in PS. To
convert it from 16 to 8 bit takes 7 secs. To rotate the canvas 17.3
degrees CCW (seemed like a good, weird number for PS to crunch)
takes 31 sec for the original 16 bit file. In NV, just to open a
photo full size from the thumbnail takes 18 sec.

I'm chugging along with a Celeron 500, 256 meg, 40g 7200 RPM cheapy
Maxtor, on-board video. By the time I add up the cost of my
ultimate system, I'm half tempted to go back and just try to crank
this one up with faster CPU, 512 RAM, and a faster HD to see what
kind of improvement I get.

Any input appreciated!

Thanks!

Dave
 

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