Nikon Suicide or Not?

Hey, you are dating yourself mentioning Dumont.

We were the first on the block to get a color TV--an RCA console which politely caught fire one night. I seem to recall it was some engineers at RCA Indianapolis who developed that Indian head test pattern back when resolution was about 265 lines...before it jumped up to 330 at 60 Hz. Then Zenith invented digital right there in Chicago. Funny how kids have no clue how important American innovation was back in the day.
 
MoreorLess wrote:
Greenville wrote:
MoreorLess wrote:
I don't think its really down to a "film" or "digital" forum, you post opinions that ill informed and seemingly arrogantly dismissive of other photographers and your going to get a negative response pretty much anywhere.
True, but I have been on this forum since Phil started it when he lived in Singapore (had to change IDs when I moved 6+ years ago). For several years the forum had tons of film people coming to point out how stupid (generally their term) we were even trying digital photography. Even as the moderator pointed out the forum is for digital photography. I have no problem with good honest civil discussions about the differences in film vs digital.
Neither do I and dispite having got into Photography via digital over several years I'm certainly not agenst a discussion of the merits of film and have entertained trying it out more recently now I have a DSLR setup I'm happy with using for the majority of my workflow.

I take mostly landscapes and action/protrait shots of dogs using a D800 and sell a few prints, if I found myself in the positiion of needing to make prints larger than 30 by 20 inchs often I'd certainly consider giving large format a try(for the landscapes anyway) with the added advanatge of movements.

Equally if I wanted to spend more time taking pictures on the street I'd consider a 35mm film rangefinder, the FF digital options are way overpriced for me and I'd probabley not be looking to print large or take as many shots so the advanatges of digital would be less.
I'm guessing with Nikon as with Canon and the V1 the F6 is partly kept in the lineup as a marketing move to highlight the companies history. A potential buyer of a DSLR might look at there continued support of film and get the impression there less likely to abandon there current lines of cameras.
I looked a the Canon site and maybe I just missed it but I could not see the EOS-1V listed in their current lineup. If you do a search the camera comes up and a few sites still list the camera. I guess there are still some left in the warehouse.
Its still listed as a current product on there site here in the UK.

To me though the SLR market is really the area were film seems to have declined the most, not only are there tons of digital options with the latest tech just as there were in the film days but those old film bodies can be had used for next to nothing. If I really wanted to give one a try I'd buy a used F5 that can be had for less than £200.
Wow, that is interesting. I went to the Canon UK site to see the differences between it and the UK site. On the USA site there is no mention of film cameras or listing for the 1V, but if you search for the 1V you get the a product page for the camera similar to the Canon UK site.

As for used I fully agree, if I was going to buy a film camera I would get used, there are great deals. At one time I thought about trying out MF just to experiment, but after doing a little research I decided it was not for me. I am really glad I sold all of my high end film gear years ago. I was able to sell and get a good decent deal.


Nikons decision to get out of the scanning market to me is a little more questionable, granted I think the market for scanning 35mm has greatly declined but higher end medium/large format still seems to have its share of users. Seems that theres a bit of a gap between the likes of the Epson flatbed level scanners and the really expensive drumscans that Nikon could potentially exploit.
I have no doubt that Nikon would still be in the film scanner business if there was enough demand for their scanners. I agree the quality difference between a good Epson flatbed scanner and a Nikon is big for 35mm - I have both. I issue is not quality but demand - when there were a lot of active film photographers who needed to scan on an ongoing basis demand was high. Now the demand is mainly people archiving their collections. Most buy the used and new scanners and then resell them as soon as their archive is complete.
As I said I can see why the market for 35mm scanners has died off, demand is far far less and can generally be ment by the used market. I do think there potential for larger format scanners though where the userbase seems to be holding up more given the resolution advanatges of large format and the lower price of medium format compaired to FF DSLR's.
I am sure you are right about dedicated scanners doing a better job for large format, but I have been very pleased by the results of scanning some of my older family larger format negatives on my Epson.
 
Hello KRR,

I believe that the Labs have gone a-wall simply because of the convenience and cost effectiveness of digital production. I have been forced (very reluctantly) into this satanic world of digits and pixels.

Any time I have brought a 120 film to the Lab for processing and printing it threw them into a tissy with accompanying moans and groans. I can well understand why! However, there is still (as you mentioned) a vibrant market for film users, but again, it is all down to money and production costs.

I still do quite a lot of B&W work in 4x5in and 6x9cm but for other work I had to thread the digital path. This digital world is here to stay and the manufacturers are going to keep on going "hammer-n-tongs" with their ever increasing "latest Model" and its the general public which keeps the eternal fires of digital hell alive and burning hot. Most people in whatever walk of life will always want the latest gizmo.

Hereticaly may I say "Viva Le Film" :-x
 
pavi1 wrote:
Mark B. wrote:
This is getting way off topic of the original post, so I'll be surprised if this side discussion is allowed to continue.

Moderators were long overdue. There were too many personal insults and trollish comments being tossed about in pretty much every forum I frequent here.
It is really too bad we can not discuss, even argue, the OP's comments without name calling. We should even be able to laugh at each other without name calling.
 
We have lost Jessops recently, they may have not being making a profit on camera sales but in our local branch the processing department was always busy, the customers were not bringing films but memory cards or memory sticks from which to have their prints made so people still seem to be having prints made but the source has moved forward. As an aside my observations suggest that many customers were prepared to pay extra for the 25 minute or 1 hour service, it would seem the the customers had not lost the interest in having a print in their hands.
 
One size fits most, but not all. Sometimes, people in the majority often bully the minority position just because they can. It is subconscious more than likely. I just wish the nastiness would go away on both sides of debate. But, regardless, my position that the manufacturers were/are inept is still a viable position. Why would Nikon invest in TV spots promoting pink point & shoots instead of DSLRs when telephones are just as good. Seems like Apple was the beneficiary of the Nikon toy camera ads?
 
Film is dead- Long live film. Been there , done that so what can I say? Film is so 20th century and time marched on. For the cell-phone and pink P&S cam masses I am sure that a drugstore download to print is all they will ever aspire to. For us superior intellects digital has been the holy grail. Millions of photos will be downloaded into our computers while only hundreds of paper photos will get slotted into long forgotten albums. Life is short and moves along with or without us.
 
I have had photography as a hobby since 1955. At one point I had a dark room. As my life evolved, more and more of my pictures were taken on vacations. And, as I got older, two things happened: First, we moved into a condo and that left me with no place to have a darkroom. But film and negative scanners came along, and so I went "digital" long before I had my first digital camera and my processing was not in the darkroom, but in daylight on my PC. Second, carrying 40-50 rolls of 35 mm on travel was becoming more and more of a hassle with air travel getting more and more security conscious. And, so, in 2003, I bought my first digital camera.

You mean those three little memory cards are the equivalent of 40 rolls of film? And they are not sensitive to X-rays? All I need is a $20 card reader to get them into my PC? Oooh! I can take floral shots, run to the PC, see what I did, make corrections, and take more shots before the lighting changes!!!

I've also compared similar shots taken with film and digital. In general, I prefer the digital shots.

I think most people, and particularly younger ones, prefer digital. My grandkids have no experience with film. The social media sites have made "sharing" and sending images really important in our society. Film is way too slow and cumbersome to get into the PC and sent. Nikon and Canon are not niche companies. They are high volume producers of consumer and professional products. Keeping an obsolete technology alive for a small niche is not in their best interest. But even the companies that are niche players are going digital or have already done so. Very few have your continued strong interest in film, and next year there will be fewer.

I can't take pictures with my cell phone. Can you? My grown kids and most of the grandkids can. Nikon and Canon and the other camera companies know this, and they are just now starting to integrate themselves with electronic communications. Done successfully, that's what will save Nikon; not some strategy to try and prolong film.

Film has too long a time between taking the image and when it can be converted and transmitted. It needs to be no longer than a few minutes, and better if it's near immediate.

Manufacturing of film is a major industrial process. How can you support that as a niche market?
 
You are right this discussion is not related to the original subject. In any case, my intention wasn't to continue writing my speculations. So I stop.
 
Their name is Kodak. It's often said in the industry that Kodak had/has brilliant engineers and researchers, but HORRIBLE marketing and management... they bet the farm on film, and lost.

Film has it's application, but it's a niche market. No one is going to be selling MILLIONS of film cameras anymore. You can't have 5 different lines of film cameras.

Your complaint with Nikon is that they only have 2 models of film cameras? How many is Leica making? 2: the MP and the M7, which are arguably much less different than the FM-10 and the F6 that Nikon offers.

The nice thing with film is that there are millions of film cameras sitting on people's shelves that can be had for a song, so I really don't see the need for purchasing a brand new middle of the road 35mm film camera. If you're buying camera for school you get the FM-10, if you're a high end journalist or wedding photographer that needs the best AF you get the F6, if you want more than the FM-10 but can't afford the F6 you'll probably find a better deal on a used camera, and that is why Nikon doesn't make anything in between.

Canon doesn't even bother with making entry level film cameras because they don't make manual focus lenses so the students aren't going to buy a Rebel they'll buy the Nikon FM-10. And they also flooded the market with Rebels and EOS-3's in the 90's so there's tons of them on the used market, but if you need high end you can get the EOS-1V.

I'm not saying one is better than the other between digital and film, but here's the fact... far more people are going to buy digital cameras than film cameras. The handful of people buying film cameras is a small, limited market. Offering more options does not sell more cameras, it just takes away from other cameras you could be selling.

--

\~K
 
Greenville wrote:
As I said I can see why the market for 35mm scanners has died off, demand is far far less and can generally be ment by the used market. I do think there potential for larger format scanners though where the userbase seems to be holding up more given the resolution advanatges of large format and the lower price of medium format compaired to FF DSLR's.
I am sure you are right about dedicated scanners doing a better job for large format, but I have been very pleased by the results of scanning some of my older family larger format negatives on my Epson.
To me that seems like a bit of a different market though, the Epsons certainly seem to give good enough results for achieving faily picks but alot of the continued interest in larger format film is really based on resolution, when you move above FF digital starts to move out of the price range of most users and the large format options are still scanning backs.

It does seem to me that while most of the cheapo labs have either gone out of business or shifted to digital there is a not insignifcant number of higher quality labs that have lasted, generally those that deal with larger formats aswell. Drumscanners are I'd guess out of the budget of all but the biggest labs were as I think a Nikon scanner thats partway between that and an Epson in price/quality could be a good option for many of them.

If for example I was looking at buying say a Fuji GWS 690 rangefinder as a cheaper way to high resolution than a D800 I'm not sure the results I'v seen from Epson's and other flatbeds would be good enough for me. Sending the very best shots to be drum scanned would be an option but I'd not want to do that with every shot I wanted to print A3 or larger.
 
Last edited:
Money talks, at the end of the day that is what any business is all about, generating money ! On a personal level as a UK OAP I could not afford to be as productive if I was using film, I had a full B&W darkroom, sent hours producing prints, sometimes multiple copies as I strived to get the shading/contrast etc as I wanted, now I am able to make all my adjustments before committing anything to paper, digital has allowed me to explore the areas of print production that would have been impossible in the film days. To survive companies have to continually move forward in he direction the market is moving, in my opinion the biggest threat to all camera manufacturers is the here today gone tomorrow mentality of today's main image makers, the Facebook etc user when an image will be important for the proverbial '15 ' minutes and forgotton shortly afterwards.
 
KRR wrote:

But, the labs sat on their hands and the film companies did to. Now, they are both going out of business and they could have delayed the inevitable if only they had had some creative and confident managers willing to collect ideas from the field.
This is downright insulting to anyone who was in a lab at the time. They tried and struggled to stay afloat, most didn't make it.
>Why not a Fuji POS display at the color lab?
There were many.
>Imagine rolls of film in the cooler at the lab for customers to see.
Yes, most decent labs did this back in the film days, when they sold many rolls of film a day.
>Why not offer a free roll of film with 4 rolls of developing?
Again, many labs that offered a free rolls of film with developing. Heck when I was in college I worked at two different labs and both had a deal where if you were a member of our loyalty club and paid something like a $20 annual fee, you'd get a free roll of film with every roll you developed or free doubles... between 2002 and 2004 the tide drastically shifted. More people were bringing in digital cards and asking to get doubles on those and didn't want the film.
>Why not a used film camera for sale bulletin board at the lab?
Many places would do this, particularly for "short dated" film. Meaning stuff that was getting close to expiration date (but had been kept in refrigeration so it was probably good as long as you were going to use it soon.)
>Did your lab ever give you a tour of their back room with their equipment?
If you were a large customer, ANY decent lab I knew would do this.
>Where was the scanning service education programs. Coolscan was really good.
Not so much
>Why not film photo contests sponsored by film companies?
Kodak still does this. You get your picture on their website.
>Did your lab ever say thanks for your E-6 business?
As of 2004 there were maybe 2 labs anywhere near central New Jersey that were processing E-6 so every lab was outsourcing to them. If you've ever run a lab you'd know that those machines and chemistry are only cost effective if they're running a LOT of film. Also the best way to keep the chemistry at top quality is to run a LOT of film. Setting up a machine every day for the 10 people who drop off a roll once a month and the pro who shoots 10 rolls of 120 every other week isn't cost effective. And those clients also don't want hear that you only develop on Thursdays, they want their film in 1 hour. I can do that but to keep the business open I'm going to have to charge $100 per roll for developing. Most labs kept themselves afloat by branching out and offering digital services, framing, portrait sessions, etc.
>How about an open house with a film photograper, sponsored by local camera retailer?
Many places I know offer open houses with photographers. But they don't care if the photographer shoots film or digital, if the photographer is good, they're good, period.
>Buy a new film camera and get free introductory processing discount coupon?
Again, I worked at two labs who had a loyalty program which we'd offer if you bought a camera. By 2004 no one was buying film cameras from us, just digital.
Cross-merchandising works, but only if you try it. Film and camera companies should have merged their efforts in the early days of digital. Too late now. #
It was tried, trust me. People wanted digital.

Edit: I'd like to add, I'm not saying film is a bad thing. But it's not what the masses wanted. It's a niche thing, and the market cannot support a 1 hour lab every 5 miles. There will still be some labs here and there, but you may have to drive an hour and you may have to wait a day or two to get your film developed. The entire one-hour lab economy was dependent on MILLIONS of rolls of film being processed every day. The production of film also was built on an economy of scale. It was inevitable that with digital cameras and now with smart phones that far fewer people were going to need film, and that was going to drastically reduce anyone that relied on moving huge numbers.
 
Last edited:
I think film has moved to medium and large format. Nikon has never made cameras or lenses for these formats.
 
I have friend who retired from a major camera manufacturer after 25 years. He learned his photog skills in the US Army. And they taught him well. He traveled the globe as a young army photographer learning and digesting his skills. Enough so, that when he left the army he was immediately hired by Canon.

When he retired he opened his own little camera shop selling cameras and processing the film. Business was “great guns” and he was rolling. He had two processing machines, and they are/were very expensive to buy, and expensive to keep running with “clean” chemicals and periodic maintenance.

Business was “so good.” He was processing thousands of rolls of film a month, mostly prints and quite a few slides. His biggest customers were Real Estate agents, Pro photogs, Small Business’, and of course vacationers, who would “drop-off” 40 or 50 rolls at a time.

He was happy & content…..until:

In 1997 a Sony representative showed up with a new camera called the Sony Mavica. It was a digital camera that recorded the pics on a 1.44 computer floppy disk. He had heard about digital but had never seen one and dismissed the idea out of hand.

He was astonished as the Sony rep demonstrated how it worked. He took a dozen on consignment, but doubted they would sell.

Two days later they were gone; Purchased by his Real Estate customers. He saw an immediate drop-off in business from those agents. He ordered another 12 Mavicas.

Being a very intelligent person, and seeing the future of the next wave in photography, He promptly put his store up for sale in November of 1997 and never looked back.

The store closed in 2005 after years of struggle.

Such is the impact of “Digital Photography” on the world of film photography! This small example is what happened in thousands of cases in the next 10 years or so.

This same man introduced me to Digital in 2003 when He handed me a Canon Powershot G3 camera and said, “try this little beauty.” OH Wow!!!

I sold all my Nikon film cameras and many lenses on E-Bay, and reaped back exactly 65% of my initial investment. I was very happy with that!

And I’ve never looked back, or even wished for the so-called “good-ole-days.”
 
Paphios wrote:

I think film has moved to medium and large format. Nikon has never made cameras or lenses for these formats.
In the past, Nikon made lenses for Bronica and for large format. They were good.


 
KRR wrote:. Why would Nikon reduce their film offering to only 2 models?
Because every film camera with Nikon F lens mount must compete in the market where a lightly used Nikon F-100 body can be had for around $200.-

MaxTux
 

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top