5D II bad AF - really? Are you kidding?

[JackM]

You should at least try something moving toward the camera at fast speed to prove the point.

I was downhill at an angle to the skier, he was moving towards and across the camera.

Any AF that could not lock something easy like this (large object, good light, slow distance variation, no detracting background or frontground) has very serious problem. It's your problem not the cameras if your 5DII center AF point could not do this.

The center AF point of the 5D2 could certainly do this shot, but you would have to be zoomed looser and then crop a lot and sacrifice resolution to achieve this composition with the skier in the top of the frame.

I agree the center AF point of the 5D2 is very very capable. If that's all you need then save your money. I need more. Selling my 7D and 5D2 and kicking in $500 to buy the 5D3 was an easy decision for me.

 

[kdrk888]

The 5DII is a great camera, I had one and got some decents airshow shots out of it. But no doubt the 5DIII is a better all around camera. To say it's not is just burying your head in the sand. But is it worth $1500 more than the 5DII? Maybe not, it depends who you ask and what do they use the camera for.

 

[qianp2k]

The 5DII is a great camera, I had one and got some decents airshow shots out of it. But no doubt the 5DIII is a better all around camera. To say it's not is just burying your head in the sand. But is it worth $1500 more than the 5DII? Maybe not, it depends who you ask and what do they use the camera for.

That's right. My opinions are,

5D3 $3500 is over-priced. I'd buy it right away if it's $2700 or still likely at $3000. I will wait in the holiday season at end of year in double-lens discount (with 70-200L/2.8 IS II or a L prime).

5D3 $1500 over 5D2 is not justified if you mainly shoot in landscape, portrait and studio as in OP case.

5D3 $1500 over 5D2 maybe justified if you shoot wedding, sports and many actions involved including airshows. 5D2 can capture many individual shots on moving subjects but will miss many critical moments, in another words, you are not always getting what you intended for.

--
http://qianp2k.zenfolio.com/

 

[joger]

But when the newbie and near newbie is purchasing that camera that won't get used that much because he or she becomes intimidated by it, they will look at the stats and have read discussions here - "Oh look, such and such model camera has a higher FPS and its suppose to focus better, I'd better spend the extra thousand and get it, its a much better camera."

excellent posting!

That's what I wanted to highlight - don't read advertisement and marketing blabla - go out and shoot and see yourself whether the paper values are of any use to you?

On the pricing side I have some further food for thought - and I hope you understand the situation form an investment standpoint rather then showing off.

1.) I want to go fast because i shoot fast arbitrary moving objects and I have to deliver

Well - that sounds like the 300 f/2.8 plus a 1D body - just the greatest and best is good enough and you surely need the high FPS

2.) I want to shoot quality on a budget with different sujets

No question - a crop camera will do and some crop zooms - might be the easiest way to start photography if you are not son or daughter as profession and funding your toys is not worth talking about ;-)

3.) I want to go to the ultimate quality on a budget

You are a grown up amateur photographer and you love good gear and the best money can buy BUT your budget is funded by the money that is left after paying sour living - well is it wise then to invest in a tiny bit better AF but not too fast 5D III and live with a good but not fantastic 70-200 f/2.8 instead of a 300 f/2.8 plus a 300 f/2.8 ??

I was laughing when the question came witch which equipment the ATP photographer is going to be sent to the event - most probably no 5D of any kind at all and most probably with a set of three of four really good lenses most of us don't own even one lens of ;-)

The registration at the event and the travel expenses and the guy cost more then renting the suitable equipment - so this very stressed guy (or lady) will probably go with a 200 f/2.0. 300 f/2.8 or 400 f/2.8 and maybe the 70-200 f/2.8 and nice 8-16 for some atmosphere shots and maybe two 1Dx (simply to be on the save side if one body fails)

I hate the attitude that the 5D III is regarded as a semi pro camera and the 5D II is regard as so lala camera - that's one of the reasons to start this thread - the 5D III is better in every respect but it is still no pro camera at all -- it is ia face lifted 5D II with a bit better functionality but the same image quality.

In other words coming from the perspective of a 1Dx all other cameras look like toys when it comes to action photography - I've used the 1Ds III several times and it is a gorgeous camera - I guess the 1Dx will be a beast. Neither the 5D II nor the 5D III will come close - especially when fps is most important.

All "normal" photographers can easily live with the 5D II and some newbies are happily invited to spend their money on the 5D III but it makes not night and day advantage. I am sure to get the same amount of good shoots (quality wise) with my 5D II and 300 f/2.8 combo as the 5D III plus 70-200 + 1.4 x Combo guy - most probably more good shots and surely better quality of the excellent shots.

So is it wise to invest in a 5D III knowing that you might need a 1Dx?

Probably not - the 5D III is still a rather slow camera and for all mission critical stuff I would not want to use it - I'd rather want to rent a 1Dx for these occasions and for the uplift in money I could rent the 1Dx here locally maybe 10 weekends until I am at the 5D III -5D II price difference.

But I would be sure to have the utmost in Canon's action dedicated lineup.

I love good gear but I start to wonder how many newbies just repeat the marketing blabla of the manufactures - I love good quality images and I spend a lot of time with that leisure activity - but I am not so rich to spend the uplift from a 5D II to III fur just a bit better - it is not justifiable by any means knowing that there is something much better for the occasions where I would need speed.

Just think about that - renting a lens is not an option because you will miss thousands of good images - buying the 5D III brings you maybe some better pictures but not thousands of better images - renting a 1D x will bring you each weekend or event hundreds of images a 5D III & II never could do.

Just my 2 ct

--

isn’t it funny, a ship that leaks from the top

ISO 9000 definition of quality: 'Degree to which a set of inherent characteristic fulfills requirements'
I am the classic “Windows by Day, Mac by Night user'

“The horizon of many people is a circle with zero radius which they call their point of view.” Albert Einstein

 

[Peter 13]

Thanks for trying, but this is not a comparable image. The subject is not off-center.

It is, much more than yours. It has been cropped, as I said.

Guy, your subject is smack over your center AF point. Not sure why you weren't using it.

No, it is not. Again, this is a cropped image. My subject is off center. DXO preserves the AF points location in the EXIF but they appear shifted/displaced. I used all AF points then.

My skier's boots might be somewhat near the center of the frame, but you can't aim your AF point at a skier's boots because they will often be spread apart or moving erratically. I aim for the head or chest.

You could have just activated all AF points. No need to track anything.

I tried this today with my 5D2. All AF points active, no prefocusing, just point and shoot, Av mode, Single shot, wide open. The center AF point was never chosen.

70-200/4 IS:





Two consecutive shots, perfectly focused. Well, f/4, not f/2.8. Then I mounted my 135L on, and shot wide open again.

 

[schmegg]

But when the newbie and near newbie is purchasing that camera that won't get used that much because he or she becomes intimidated by it, they will look at the stats and have read discussions here - "Oh look, such and such model camera has a higher FPS and its suppose to focus better, I'd better spend the extra thousand and get it, its a much better camera."

excellent posting!

That's what I wanted to highlight - don't read advertisement and marketing blabla - go out and shoot and see yourself whether the paper values are of any use to you?

No - I think you've misunderstood. rsn48 is talking about newbies . Admittedly, you are a noob when it comes to action photography. But do try to keep up with what others are telling you instead of ignoring almost everything being said and focussing upon one post that could be misconstrued as supporting your misunderstanding.

On the pricing side I have some further food for thought - and I hope you understand the situation form an investment standpoint rather then showing off.

1.) I want to go fast because i shoot fast arbitrary moving objects and I have to deliver

Well - that sounds like the 300 f/2.8 plus a 1D body - just the greatest and best is good enough and you surely need the high FPS

Or, indeed, a 5D3 and a 300/2.8 if money is a little tighter. ;-)

2.) I want to shoot quality on a budget with different sujets

No question - a crop camera will do and some crop zooms - might be the easiest way to start photography if you are not son or daughter as profession and funding your toys is not worth talking about ;-)

If money is a bit tighter than a 5D3 and 300/2.8, a 7D and 300/4 would be an excellent choice.

3.) I want to go to the ultimate quality on a budget

You are a grown up amateur photographer and you love good gear and the best money can buy BUT your budget is funded by the money that is left after paying sour living - well is it wise then to invest in a tiny bit better AF but not too fast 5D III and live with a good but not fantastic 70-200 f/2.8 instead of a 300 f/2.8 plus a 300 f/2.8 ??

It's not a "tiny bit better" though - it's significantly better. Why don't you listen to and absorb what you are being told here by those who have experience in both?

I hate the attitude that the 5D III is regarded as a semi pro camera and the 5D II is regard as so lala camera

That's something you've come up with yourself. I don't remember anyone here saying the 5D2 was not a great camera. You seem to have an issue joger.

• that's one of the reasons to start this thread - the 5D III is better in every respect but it is still no pro camera at all -- it is ia face lifted 5D II with a bit better functionality but the same image quality.

In your opinion. DPR and many others think otherwise. Get over it!

 

[HSU]

Many true things, but this one I could not let is stand uncorrected:

In other words coming from the perspective of a 1Dx all other cameras look like toys when it comes to action photography - I've used the 1Ds III several times and it is a gorgeous camera - I guess the 1Dx will be a beast. Neither the 5D II nor the 5D III will come close - especially when fps is most important.

So, a 1DsIII is a gorgeous camera, especially when fps is the most important?
True for the 1Dx, but your argumentation also includes the 1Ds III.
The 5D III has 6 fps, while the 1Ds III has 5.
The 5D II/III and 1Ds III have a compareable sensor.

The 5D III has the better AF (already reported here). The 1Dx AF could be marginally better, yet has to be shown.

Except that the 5D III is not built like a tank like the 1Ds-series, I'd say the 5D III hold up quite well.

Ah, and aput the pros: Wedding photog's like the 5D series BECAUSE it is not built like a tank and so the burden of carrying two of them all the day long (ofen a 18h day) is a little lesser.

Oh, and don't think wedding ist only static---you completely forget about the show elements.

 

[Suhas Sudhakar Kulkarni]

I upgraded from Nikon D90 to 5d mark II, and comparing the two cameras I can definitely say that nikon was better focusing for fast moving subjects (even with average consumer lens like Tamron 70-300 Di LD)

I am not able to get good keepers in ai servo mode with 5dMkII, but with same setup and same location I used to get good shots with D90.
My impresion of 5DmarkII is now, that it is a studio / landscape camera.

--
Suhas

 

[joger]

In other words coming from the perspective of a 1Dx all other cameras look like toys when it comes to action photography - I've used the 1Ds III several times and it is a gorgeous camera - I guess the 1Dx will be a beast. Neither the 5D II nor the 5D III will come close - especially when fps is most important.

So, a 1DsIII is a gorgeous camera, especially when fps is the most important?
True for the 1Dx, but your argumentation also includes the 1Ds III.
The 5D III has 6 fps, while the 1Ds III has 5.
The 5D II/III and 1Ds III have a compareable sensor.

The 5D III has the better AF (already reported here). The 1Dx AF could be marginally better, yet has to be shown.

Except that the 5D III is not built like a tank like the 1Ds-series, I'd say the 5D III hold up quite well.

Ah, and aput the pros: Wedding photog's like the 5D series BECAUSE it is not built like a tank and so the burden of carrying two of them all the day long (ofen a 18h day) is a little lesser.

Oh, and don't think wedding ist only static---you completely forget about the show elements.

with the fps I was referring to the 1Dx and not to the 1Ds III

The 1Ds III is nice in terms of handling with large and heavy lenses - a fact that I encounter now and I do miss the vertical shutter release the first time ever.

The 5D III is no significant leap ahead for some 80 % of the photographers - most will never use the new features in their photography or over estimate their use.

But as some seem to be extremely gear heads and not photographers i will levee it this way - buy whatever seems to suit you but please stopp saying these or that images could only be done with the 5D III - that's ridiculous - really - it sounds like the VW Golf GTI buyers that claim to have a sports car because they bought a GTI

The 5D III is no high speed camera it is still a rather slow rather low res entry level DSLR and unfortunately unreasonable expensive too. I wonder if Canon made an analyses if the perceived value of the camera gets higher simply by raising the prices?

The image quality counts more then the other features - AF is simply a means of assiting you - you can't work around missing resolution and image quality but you can work around slower AF.

I would love to own the 1Dx for some occasions - I will rent it for occasions where it makes sense - for the rest of my amateur work (some 98 %) the 5D II is just more then good enough except the resolution figures - which will be solved sooner or later ;-)

--

isn’t it funny, a ship that leaks from the top

ISO 9000 definition of quality: 'Degree to which a set of inherent characteristic fulfills requirements'
I am the classic “Windows by Day, Mac by Night user'

“The horizon of many people is a circle with zero radius which they call their point of view.” Albert Einstein

 

[schmegg]

The 5D III is no significant leap ahead for some 80 % of the photographers - most will never use the new features in their photography or over estimate their use.

And if I said that what you claim is wrong - why would my point of view be wrong and yours be right?

Fact is, there are people who know exactly what they want, and need, in a camera. And being told by someone else that they don't need these things is both annoying and ignorant.

But as some seem to be extremely gear heads and not photographers i will levee it this way - buy whatever seems to suit you but please stopp saying these or that images could only be done with the 5D III - that's ridiculous - really - it sounds like the VW Golf GTI buyers that claim to have a sports car because they bought a GTI

It is a fact that erratically moving subjects will be easier to capture with a 5D3 than it will be with a 5D2. It is also a fact that the 5D3 will give the photographer a better chance of capturing a particular moment than the 5D2 will give them.

That doesn't mean you can only capture the shot with a 5D3 - it just means that it will be easier and more likely.

And if someone values this ability enough to pay for it, why do you have a problem with that?

The 5D III is no high speed camera it is still a rather slow rather low res entry level DSLR and unfortunately unreasonable expensive too.

It still significantly faster than a 5D2 - at almost everything! As is a 7D - for even cheaper. ;-)

I wonder if Canon made an analyses if the perceived value of the camera gets higher simply by raising the prices?

They don't need to. This type of study has been done many, many times - and companies such as Canon understand the intricacies of price and value very well.

Do you now have a problem with Canon trying to make money?

The image quality counts more then the other features - AF is simply a means of assiting you - you can't work around missing resolution and image quality but you can work around slower AF.

No! AF is integral to IQ for some - myself included.

Frankly, it doesn't matter what DR, colour depth, ISO performance and resolution you have if your shot is out of focus! But if you capture a magic moment well framed and well focused, IQ will matter much less as the shot will have all the impact it needs to carry it.

(can't believe I have to explain this to someone!)

I would love to own the 1Dx for some occasions - I will rent it for occasions where it makes sense - for the rest of my amateur work (some 98 %) the 5D II is just more then good enough except the resolution figures - which will be solved sooner or later ;-)

That's great! The 5D2 is a fantastic camera - of that there is no doubt. And it's certainly not suddenly got worse because there is a new model on the market. So stop think that - please! ;-)

 

[joger]

. . . Do you now have a problem with Canon trying to make money?

yes - if it's mine and if I don't feel to get something in return

as a normal customer you are automatically entitled to be selfish ;-)

I am fine with Canon being selfish as well - I am simply on the other side and no brand fetishist

P.S just wanted to see which kind of photos you're doing and found none in you DPR space and no link to any other online gallery
--

isn’t it funny, a ship that leaks from the top

ISO 9000 definition of quality: 'Degree to which a set of inherent characteristic fulfills requirements'
I am the classic “Windows by Day, Mac by Night user'

“The horizon of many people is a circle with zero radius which they call their point of view.” Albert Einstein

 

[HSU]

P.S just wanted to see which kind of photos you're doing and found none in you DPR space and no link to any other online gallery

Joger, this was obviously not meant for me, but your webpage shows only a blank black page for me (Firefox and IE).

 

[joger]

P.S just wanted to see which kind of photos you're doing and found none in you DPR space and no link to any other online gallery

Joger, this was obviously not meant for me, but your webpage shows only a blank black page for me (Firefox and IE).

yes - still (after years of ideas) in planning phase - you might know this situation - I spend more time photographing then building up web pages - some images are here on DPR - to illustrate some of the things I do - maybe I will have time in the future to make a high sophisticated web page. Always hard to find time beyond a few postings - even though LR is a big help - computers and fancy functions are only a support for me and never a self fulfilling task - what I do is most of the time clearly targeted. Only my car (1) and my stereo set (2) at home are for pure enjoyment.

off topic
(1) lovely 3.44 L Boxer engine equipped
(2) full symmetric pre amp and bi-wiring be amped high end speakers
--

isn’t it funny, a ship that leaks from the top

ISO 9000 definition of quality: 'Degree to which a set of inherent characteristic fulfills requirements'
I am the classic “Windows by Day, Mac by Night user'

“The horizon of many people is a circle with zero radius which they call their point of view.” Albert Einstein

 

[jayant atrey]

Hi ,
I am not an expert as far as photography is concerned.

I attempted to have my go and the lense i had on my 5D MkII was Tamron 70-300 mm f/3.5-5.6 Di LD Macro ( used it in macro mode ) and none of you is going to put that lense in front of 5D MkII . The result is here for you people to judge. I am aware , this is not at all a good image.

The only additional info i will put : i shot it through running train ( Indian railways ) and speed was not lessw than 60 Kms / hr.

Regards;

Jayant Atrey

 

[joger]

looks like heavy motion blur - what shutter speed did you have? does the Tmaorn have image stabilization? I guess not

Here is a German high speed train with some 120 mph (180 to 200 km/h)



EF 300 f/2.8 II plus 2x Extender III with servo AF at resulting 600 mm f/5.6
--

isn’t it funny, a ship that leaks from the top

ISO 9000 definition of quality: 'Degree to which a set of inherent characteristic fulfills requirements'
I am the classic “Windows by Day, Mac by Night user'

“The horizon of many people is a circle with zero radius which they call their point of view.” Albert Einstein

 

[HSU]

I'm also to lazy (too less time) to show off my work. I guess, I'm a bad business man.

 

[schmegg]

P.S just wanted to see which kind of photos you're doing and found none in you DPR space and no link to any other online gallery

Fair question

I usually don't like posting photos to forums - particularly as it often is a bait for criticism when a discussion is between two people who see things differently. (though I don't mind criticism - just prefer it to not be a point-scoring exercise - which it tends to sometimes be on forums like this. BTW - it's also why I refrained from making comment on your posted examples - I don't think it would be appropriate in the circumstances nor do I pretend to presume that you would post your best photography here either).

Here's a few I've shared from imageshack (hope you don't think they are too garbage - and sorry about the crazy sizes - they are just random ones I've sent to other people via IShack) ....















BTW - all of these are from my 7D and 100-400L I think. The Ibis is one I've used to show what setting the tracking sensitivity down a notch or two will let you do - the bird passing in front had no deleterious effects on the tracking at all. My older cameras would have most likely gotten confused there and quite possibly lost the subject for a frame or two. Likewise, the cheetah was shot through a wire fence from a moving vehicle and the AF was able to ignore that quite well once I got a lock on the subject by turning down the tracking sensitivity.

None of these would be unobtainable with a 5D2, or a 40D or even my 10D to be honest. But by using a better AF system I increased my chances, got more usable images to choose from and made the whole experience a lot easier - that's what I'm on about. No problem if you don't think the value is there for your personal photography - who am I to tell you what is and isn't important to you! But .. likewise, the converse is also true, and you should realise that there are benefits to a better AF system - at least for those of us who shoot moving things often and perhaps don't have the skills (or the budget) of the truly great action photographers.

 

[JackM]

Guy, your subject is smack over your center AF point. Not sure why you weren't using it.

No, it is not. Again, this is a cropped image. My subject is off center. DXO preserves the AF points location in the EXIF but they appear shifted/displaced.

I'm not familiar with DxO software, but that seems strange. I can't imagine how shifting the display of the AF points is useful, or why they would implement it that way, but whatever.

I used all AF points then.

You could have just activated all AF points.

Any good sports photographer will tell you that this is not advisable. And especially in my case I did not want the AF getting confused by the busy background.

No need to track anything.

I was downhill and to the side of the jump, so skiers were traveling through the air in a direction such that the distance between them and me was closing. Also I was taking sequences to catch the key moment or moments of each jump. Tracking was absolutely necessary.

I tried this today with my 5D2. All AF points active, no prefocusing, just point and shoot, Av mode, Single shot, wide open. The center AF point was never chosen.

Like I said, the 5D2 AF system works pretty well. The 5D3 works much better for my use. I shoot a lot of youth sports. I've had a 30D, 40D, 1DIIN, 5D2, 7D, and now 5D3. The 5D3 is the best of them all. Yes, you will get many great keepers with a Rebel or XXD or 5D2, but the keeper rate will be higher with the 5D3, and that is that. If that is not important to you then by all means save your money.

Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. You can trot out any downsized, sharpened keeper from a old camera and say "see? the AF works great!" My 30D:

 

[Peter 13]

Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. You can trot out any downsized, sharpened keeper from a old camera and say "see? the AF works great!"

With the exception of "old", this is exactly what you did. My shots are with the default sharpness settings in LR; I shot 3 times, and they were all keepers (well, I will delete them anyway).

Next time you want to say that this is an image that the 5D2 could not have gotten, be more careful.

 

[JackM]

Next time you want to say that this is an image that the 5D2 could not have gotten, be more careful.

My comment stands. I have shot lots of skiing and other sports with all the DSLRs I've owned, including the 5D2. The 5D3 has the highest keeper ratio, hands down. You might get that image with a 5D2 if you used the center point, zoomed out, and then cropped heavily, but you'd end up with about 10mp or so, and deeper DOF. Seeing as this image is now a 20x30" poster in that boy's room, I'm glad it was 22mp and not cropped.

There is a reason the 5D3 exists and has the 61pt AF system. You can choose not to believe it if it makes you feel better about not owning one.