6 weak points of the V1 seen from a still image photographer POW

[Photo Pete]

Thanks. I read through and I must say, in my opinion my list is still better, more reasonable. A few points on your list are really difficult or impossible to implement and some are also wrong, or demand a huge rework. Some are either not needed or just personal.

Sorry. I didn't realise it was a competition to find who could write the best list. Of course yours is the best. Lovely and long with lots of words in it

All of the points in both of our lists are not actually needed and can be classed as personal. The V1 and J1 can take perfectly fine photos without the changes, they are just not anywhere near as good as they could easily be. None of my points are 'wrong'.

For example the live histogram. I never understood the need of that and how to use it. I mean, it really only shows what the light meter also shows and in any case, not much you can do, other than learning what to do if you have too much bright or too much dark in your field of view.....I simply don't see real use for it. It's a fancy light meter. That's all.

Well, you could possibly use it to modify contrast settings, picture controls, check for blown colour channels to modify white balance, correct the exposure to disregard specular highlights, or perhaps simply as a much clearer graphical display of what the very basic light meter reading will give you. I don't mean to be rude, but just because you don't see any real use for it doesn't mean that it doesn't have any use... just that you don't know how to use it.

A second example is the comment about the flash and Auto ISO. That is incorrect. The camera is NOT setting the highest ISO if you use flash and A3200. It sets the ISO which is balanced to the light, the aperture and the shutter speed. If you let the camera manage everything it will probably end up at very high ISO (but not necessarily the highest) because it selects 1/60s. If you change to M or S and select for example 1/15s then the ISO is also adjusted downwards. That’s exactly the way it should be.

That is not always 'exactly the way it should be' and I'm afraid you are completely missing the point here. The V1 only allows balanced flash exposure when used with Auto ISO, but there are many, many situations where you do not want a flash exposure to balance with the ambient light, but instead want the flash to be the main light source. Moving subjects in very dim conditions are the most common. What you describe, and what the V1 allows, would simply produce a blurred and noisy image in those scenarios. For a non balanced flash exposure the camera should allow a shutter speed and aperture to be chosen and then automatically select the minimum ISO speed setting possible to achieve correct exposure with the flash, only increasing ISO when the flash power is insufficient to achieve correct exposure. This is an option with most Nikon DSLRs and it works very well.

Yes, Auto ISO could have several options to improve it even more, for example minimum shutter speed plus the possibility to adjust that speed to the focal length, but that's just a wish list as well. However, there is nothing wrong with the current implementation of Auto ISO.

You have just mentioned two simple improvements that clearly indicate that there is something wrong with the current implementation of Auto ISO.

Try to do it the same way I did. A very bright scene and from there move to a very dark scene.

I tested exactly the way you did. Switching from bright window view to dim internal view. I could not replicate anything approaching 9 seconds, let alone 13. I will have another go tomorrow, but if your meter is taking so long to respond I suspect you may have a faulty camera.

Anyway, 2-3 seconds is no big deal. I'd be happy if I could get that low, not even CWA can do that in my scene. I have 2-3 seconds outdoors on the street if light changes fast.

2-3 seconds is unacceptable to me (although perhaps I have been spoiled by my D3S).

Having basic controls on the outside of the camera, such as mode dials etc would also greatly help, but this would require more than a firmware update.

That's definitely I am against. I would like to have the mode dial gone all together. There is no need for that. The exposure mode is easily set up in the menu and I can see no need for more dials. No pro camera has direct access to the exposure modes, so I am used to plan how I will shoot and never really had a need for quick change between ASM. I never use P, so that mode can be removed to make place for more useful stuff.

Agreed this is not really a major issue, just annoying. You are completely wrong about pro cameras though. I have never worked with or seen a pro camera that needs you to dive into the menus to access PASM. At most they require a dedicated button to be held down whilst rotating a thumb wheel. Also, P mode with a shift function can be very useful. Again just because you don't use it doesn't mean it isn't useful, just that you don't work that way or that you don't understand how to use it.

The exposure "feature" is I believe a bug, not really by design. Yes, it ended up so, but it was a mistake, not a deliberate design decision.

It would be good if you were right and they fixed it with a firmware update, but I would be surprised if they did.

I don't think they will ever implement any major change which is not functionally wrongly implemented. No changes in handling, like A1600 will be implemented in the J1/V1. Maybe in the J2/V2, if that's what they are going to be called.

Strange, of all the items you've listed I would have bet on A1600 being the most likely to be implemented. Nikon has already set the precedent for this by introducing additional ISO settings in other camera firmware updates over the years.

--
Have Fun
Photo Pete

 

[torags]

Oly I believe your post is an objective assessment of the cam

I like the V1 because I want to like it. It has shortcomings and I'm hoping that V2 will address these

If they don't, I'll get rid of my V1
--
Rags

 

[olyflyer]

Thanks. I read through and I must say, in my opinion my list is still better, more reasonable. A few points on your list are really difficult or impossible to implement and some are also wrong, or demand a huge rework. Some are either not needed or just personal.

Sorry. I didn't realise it was a competition to find who could write the best list. Of course yours is the best. Lovely and long with lots of words in it

That's not the way I meant it. Sorry you are so sensitive to criticism.

[SNIP]

I have never worked with or seen a pro camera that needs you to dive into the menus to access PASM.

Dive is not necessary if you know what you are doing. In any case, the V1 is NOT a pro camera, just the top model of the Nikon 1 system

At most they require a dedicated button to be held down whilst rotating a thumb wheel.

In the V1 all you need to do is push one button and rotate a dial to the item you want which you can see in the display or the VF.

In the D300s (which I have) and ALL the other pro Nikons before and after that, you need to push a button and rotate a dial until the right mode pops up in one of the displays or the VF.

In the Olympus E-3/E-5 you push a button and rotate a dial until the right mode pops up in one of the displays or the VF.

So, what's the difference?

In ALL , or almost all the consumer model DSLRs there is a dedicated dial for PASM. That's not necessary to have at all but useful for those who are not able to plan their shooting. I don't think many people change the dial so often that they would actually miss images if their camera worked like the others I mentioned. In any case, dedicated dials and many buttons are useful on large cameras but on small mirrorless bodies it is just a nuisance and Christmas tree decoration. Look at the G12, P7100, OMD and all the other similar small cameras. Aren't they beautiful to look at with all the dials and buttons? But nobody thought about where to put the fingers and how to hold those cameras without pushing one unintentionally. In this regard the Nikon philosophy is 100% right. Small cameras should have few buttons and dials, as few as possible. Please note, by that I don't mean they should not be more flexibly programmed or better placed, just that there is no need for mode dial at all.

BTW yes, you are wrong about the Auto ISO and flash combination. Why? Because you forget how weak the flash is. The flash is balancing the light to the ambient light and is simply too weak without pushing up the ISO. The work around is shooting in manual shutter priority mode, but then you are risking motion blur, and motion blur in combination with flash can be very ugly, so it is not always suitable. But in any case, the camera is NOT always using the highest ISO in combination with A3200 and flash. Also, just because I can think of additional improvements of Auto ISO that’s not the same as there is something wrong with it, like the exposure issue I was talking about. When something is no longer improvable then it is perfect and I don’t believe in anything being perfect. However, just because something is not perfect is not by definition wrong.

 

[Photo Pete]

That's not the way I meant it. Sorry you are so sensitive to criticism.

Only when the criticism is wrong or unjustified

Dive is not necessary if you know what you are doing. In any case, the V1 is NOT a pro camera, just the top model of the Nikon 1 system

Please enllghten me as to how you can change PASM without diving into the Nikon V1 menus.

In the V1 all you need to do is push one button and rotate a dial to the item you want which you can see in the display or the VF.

You need to push the menu button, assuming that you are in the camera settings menu you then need to scroll through a list of 21 items to find the Exposure mode menu (if you are not in the camera settings menu you need to scroll to that first). You then need to press the rear controller and scroll to the mode you want. Then you need to press ok and then either press menu twice or half press the shutter release to return to shooting mode.

With a consumer DSLR you simply rotate the mode dial... job done

With a pro DSLR you simply press the mode button whilst rotating the control wheel through a choice of 4 options... job done.

So, what's the difference?

About 4 button presses and a lot more scrolling. or about 4 seconds, a time delay which seems to be troubling you with regards to meter lag.

Look at the G12, P7100, OMD and all the other similar small cameras. Aren't they beautiful to look at with all the dials and buttons?

I have owned both the P7000 and G12. Both are better laid out for general shooting, but both have poor image quality (at higher ISO) and very sluggish autofocus and shooting speed.

BTW yes, you are wrong about the Auto ISO and flash combination. Why? Because you forget how weak the flash is.

It is exactly due to the low power of the flash that a proper, non balanced Auto ISO flash mode is required on the V1. You can get bounced flash exposures with ISO as low as 400 in domestic rooms, but as the flash power is low an increase in camera to subject distance rapidly requires the ISO to increase. The camera should handle this for you, keeping the lowest ISO possible for correct exposure. This is how it works on most Nikon DSLRs and it works well. I am not saying this should replace the balanced flash mode, but be additional to it.

I've also just tried the matrix metering test again. Shooting out of a window (1/60sec, ISO 200 F5.6) and quickly switching to shooting to a shady area indoors (1/4sec, ISO 3200 F5.6). A considerable EV difference. Shots taken within 3 seconds have not exposed properly. Shots taken more than three seconds apart are consistently exposed.

--
Have Fun
Photo Pete

 

[JBrian]

I'm considering this camera however the issues mentioned by the OP are making me reconsider.

I'm just wondering if the slow WB adjustment is a function of the type of shutter used. I know you can change the shutter type between Mechanical, Electronic and Electronic high speed. Is it possible that the shutter selection changes the WB timing? I could see if the electronic shutter being enabled causing this type of issue as I've seen similar issues with digital camcorders and camera phones.

Thanks!

 

[DaiG]

olyflyer has been very positive about the camera in most of his threads. There is justification to the points he raises but I've found I use my Nikon V1 most of the time these days even though I have a D300 as my main camera. I'm really pleased with the prints I produce from the V1 and have been successful in using the FT-1 for super-telephoto birds-in-flight pictures. At a recent gannet photo spot I was getting better pictures with V1 and soon stopped using the D300.

The V1 could be better but its limitations are not concerning me too much at the moment. At this stage, if I didn't already have a V1, I'd wait for the V2 to hopefully see an improved design, although some of the defficiencies are philosophical rather than bugs so they may not all be solved.

 

[Varta]

I've tried to reproduce the slow exposure problem and found out this:

When pointing the camera from a dark to a bright scene in live view , it takes approx. 4 seconds until the live view changes from an overexposed image to a correctly exposed one. If I take a picture while the live view is overexposed, the resulting picture taken will be overexposed too.

Once the live view shows a correctly exposed image, a picture taken then is correctly exposed too.

What I found quite interesting is that when pointing the camera from a dark to a bright scene while in playback mode , i.e. while a taken picture is shown, the exposure is instantly correct after switching from playback to live mode.

This works both for playback mode initiated manually by pressing the playback button or by the unavoidable automatic one second playback after having taken a picture.

One effect of this is, that if you take a picture of the dark scene and point the camera to the bright scene while the picture just taken is played back, the bright scene will be correctly exposed when the playback stops.

Another effect is that when you point the camera from a dark to a bright scene in live mode and then immediately take an (overexposed) picture, a second picture you take after the automatic playback will be exposed correctly.

To adjust the exposure quickly, I can toggle the playback button twice (but not too fast).

All what I said about pointing from a dark to a bright scene works the other way around as well.

I tried this all with spot, CW and matrix metering and found no differences here.

In particular, I neither noticed exposure delays of 10 seconds or more, nor incorrectly exposed pictures after the live view had adjusted.

I always used electronic shutter, AF-C, Auto-ISO 3200 and shutter-priority (S). Firmware A is 1.12, B is 1.10. All shots for the test taken with the 10-30mm at 30mm.

 

[olyflyer]

I'm considering this camera however the issues mentioned by the OP are making me reconsider.

Don't reconsider, not because of me and my thread. It is still the only mirrorless I would buy because of other advantages it has, like the speedy AF in normal light, the extreme nice WB and IQ and the otherwise very accurate exposure in every situation. I also like the ISO noise, which in my opinion is very pleasant if you know how to take care of it. Besides, the two basic zooms are both extremely sharp and very nice to use, both with very efficient VR. In other words, I did not regret my decision of buying this kit...





...back in February this year. If I wouldn't have bought it in February I'd buy it today, even though these limitations. Anyway, I knew about each of these except the exposure issue and since every camera has some limitations, I think these are the most serious ones the V1 has. If you can live with them then fine, go and buy it. My camera is surely not for sale, meaning I will keep it anyway, at least for now, and hoping Nikon will handle it somehow.

I'm just wondering if the slow WB adjustment is a function of the type of shutter used. I know you can change the shutter type between Mechanical, Electronic and Electronic high speed. Is it possible that the shutter selection changes the WB timing? I could see if the electronic shutter being enabled causing this type of issue as I've seen similar issues with digital camcorders and camera phones.

I assume you mean the exposure, not the WB. The WB is fine as far as I am concerned. Anyway, no, no connection between which shutter is used, but you are right, maybe it is connected to the electronic shutter in the bug itself. I mean, maybe the time is needed for the electronic shutter and the camera uses the same algorithm for both.

Thanks!

You are welcome. Please, don’t let me scare you off.

 

[Photo Pete]

Go and handle a V1 for a while. It defies logic really. It has many oddities but it is a joy to use and the images just seem to have a lovely colour and tonality.

Reviews mark the camera down as they can easily quantify the oddities but don't seem to be able to quantify that the thing just seems to feel 'right' when shooting.

A great camera that could easily have been exceptional (which is why people on these forums seem so disappointed in what are really relatively minor flaws)

I bought mine for days out with the kids, when taking my D3S was overkill. Lets just say I'm leaving the D3S and the kids at home more than I expected.
--
Have Fun
Photo Pete

 

[Varta]

In particular, I neither noticed exposure delays of 10 seconds or more, nor incorrectly exposed pictures after the live view had adjusted.

Now I can reproduce. It seems to depend on the brightness, contrast and ratio of bright/dark areas in the scene.

Exposure adjustment in matrix metering sometimes fades from exposing dark areas correctly to exposing bright areas correctly. This fading can take even more than 10 seconds.

After taking or viewing a picture, exposure starts over with exposing the dark areas correctly, thus I'll have to lock the exposure to avoid this.

 

[olyflyer]

In particular, I neither noticed exposure delays of 10 seconds or more, nor incorrectly exposed pictures after the live view had adjusted.

Now I can reproduce. It seems to depend on the brightness, contrast and ratio of bright/dark areas in the scene.

Thank you for confirming that it is neither me nor my camera. I was about to make trip of about 100 km just to be able to test another V1 and a J1 to see that I am not imagining things. Anyway, when I described this to Nikon and sent the images which you can see in this thread they did not seem to be surprised nor indicated that it must be me or my individual camera.

Exposure adjustment in matrix metering sometimes fades from exposing dark areas correctly to exposing bright areas correctly. This fading can take even more than 10 seconds.

Unfortunately, Spot or CWA isn't much better, in fact, Spot metering is the same and CWA is possibly a tiny bit better only, if at all.

After taking or viewing a picture, exposure starts over with exposing the dark areas correctly, thus I'll have to lock the exposure to avoid this.

But that doesn't seem to be a problem at all. I mean, if I take repeated single images of the same target it does seem to be just fine, the problem is if you move from bright to dark subjects (or the opposite) and in that case you can't lock the exposure.

 

[Varta]

After taking or viewing a picture, exposure starts over with exposing the dark areas correctly, thus I'll have to lock the exposure to avoid this.

But that doesn't seem to be a problem at all. I mean, if I take repeated single images of the same target it does seem to be just fine, the problem is if you move from bright to dark subjects (or the opposite) and in that case you can't lock the exposure.

This problem is less pronounced than that when moving from dark to bright, but it is there. Probably also depends on scene brightness, contrast etc. I can e.g. see it on a rainy day when pointing at the window of a dark room and the window takes approx. half the area of the scene.

In shutter-priority mode with fixed-ISO, I see the aperture starting at F 6.3 and ending at F 11 after several seconds. This repeats after each picture.

I think we have two different beasts:

One is the adaption to changed brightness while metering, the other is the adaption to the brightness when metering starts . The former happens when moving from dark to bright, the latter after metering was interrupted, e.g. by switching to/from playback/preview or the menu.

 

[olyflyer]

This problem is less pronounced than that when moving from dark to bright, but it is there. Probably also depends on scene brightness, contrast etc. I can e.g. see it on a rainy day when pointing at the window of a dark room and the window takes approx. half the area of the scene.

Yes, it is a bit better when moving from dark to bright, but still very slow if the difference in light is large. I just made a few short video recordings of both going from light to dark and the dark to light and it makes maybe 10% difference.

In shutter-priority mode with fixed-ISO, I see the aperture starting at F 6.3 and ending at F 11 after several seconds. This repeats after each picture.

In A priority it makes no measurable difference if the ISO is fixed or not.

I think we have two different beasts:

One is the adaption to changed brightness while metering, the other is the adaption to the brightness when metering starts . The former happens when moving from dark to bright, the latter after metering was interrupted, e.g. by switching to/from playback/preview or the menu.

...but the camera is instantly measuring very accurate when you switch it on, regardless of the light level it is aiming at. In other words, the metering is very fast but the handling is wrong. In still image it should meter as fast as it meters after switching on the camera.

 

[JBrian]

Olyflyer thanks for the reply and for the correction. I did mean exposure and not WB.

I'm still considering the V1 as it still appears to have a lot to offer especially since the price is dropping. Sure it's not an DSLR replacement but it doesn't really matter. I sold my Canon 350D with several lenses, flash etc because it was a hassle to carry and was a bit too much weight to carry around my neck. I've since purchased a Panny FZ35 for it's zoom which is just okay, and a Canon
S95 which I enjoy and has great IQ but is a bit too slow for my liking.

The V1 seems to better the FZ35 and the S95 in a smallish form factor, better IQ and blazing speed. Dxo scores do show the sensor of the V1 is significantly better than the FZ35 and S95. I even compared the Dxo scores from my long sold Canon 350D and the V1 sensor is almost on par with the larger APS-C sensor from the 350D. Sure it's going to lack comparable DOF but I'm not too worried about it.

In the end I think the V1 and it's quick AF would be a great addition especially with my 3 kids in sports.

I had a chance to handle a V1 at the local cam shop and I enjoy the quality build design, weight and balance over my other consideration which was the high spec'd Sony Nex series which feels odd and unbalanced to me.

I also held the new Oly OMD which feels amazing but is a bit heavier, pricier body, pricier glass, etc... and on BACKORDER! for 2-4weeks????

Hopefully I'll decide this week!

Thanks!

I'm considering this camera however the issues mentioned by the OP are making me reconsider.

Don't reconsider, not because of me and my thread. It is still the only mirrorless I would buy because of other advantages it has, like the speedy AF in normal light, the extreme nice WB and IQ and the otherwise very accurate exposure in every situation. I also like the ISO noise, which in my opinion is very pleasant if you know how to take care of it. Besides, the two basic zooms are both extremely sharp and very nice to use, both with very efficient VR. In other words, I did not regret my decision of buying this kit...





...back in February this year. If I wouldn't have bought it in February I'd buy it today, even though these limitations. Anyway, I knew about each of these except the exposure issue and since every camera has some limitations, I think these are the most serious ones the V1 has. If you can live with them then fine, go and buy it. My camera is surely not for sale, meaning I will keep it anyway, at least for now, and hoping Nikon will handle it somehow.

I'm just wondering if the slow WB adjustment is a function of the type of shutter used. I know you can change the shutter type between Mechanical, Electronic and Electronic high speed. Is it possible that the shutter selection changes the WB timing? I could see if the electronic shutter being enabled causing this type of issue as I've seen similar issues with digital camcorders and camera phones.

I assume you mean the exposure, not the WB. The WB is fine as far as I am concerned. Anyway, no, no connection between which shutter is used, but you are right, maybe it is connected to the electronic shutter in the bug itself. I mean, maybe the time is needed for the electronic shutter and the camera uses the same algorithm for both.

Thanks!

You are welcome. Please, don’t let me scare you off.

 

[olyflyer]

Hopefully I'll decide this week!

Good luck!

Anyway, believe me; the V1 is amazing in spite of its shortcomings. Once you know it's weaknesses you will appreciate the camera because the strengths are there as well and those are much stronger. I have no regrets considering the alternatives (Panasonic, Olympus and NEX) I still think the V1 is the best of the lot for what I want a small camera for. Sure, I want improvements through firmware and new accessories and also changes in the next generation, but even without any changes or additional gadgets I will keep it for quite a while unless something considerably better comes along.

 

[Ellis Chan55136]

I am about to buy a J1 twin lens kit and this slow AE response issue does have my concern.

I have read the J1/V1 manual and find one can set whether to have the shutter button to lock AF, AE or both. May I know if the shutter button is set to also lock AE, would half pressing the shutter repeatedly "reset" AE? (i.e. half press shutter lock AE at bright object, release shutter button without taking picture, then point camera to dark object, half press shutter button again locking AE)

If half pressing shutter button can reset AE, then I think the camera is alright.

 

[olyflyer]

It seems like you have solved my problem... and I'll explain below...

I am about to buy a J1 twin lens kit and this slow AE response issue does have my concern.

Please note, I have no idea about the J1. I think you should go to a shop and test it. If it fullfills your expectations then you should buy it. The problems I am discussing here concern the V1. I don't know if the J1 is identical or not in this respect.

I have read the J1/V1 manual and find one can set whether to have the shutter button to lock AF, AE or both. May I know if the shutter button is set to also lock AE, would half pressing the shutter repeatedly "reset" AE? (i.e. half press shutter lock AE at bright object, release shutter button without taking picture, then point camera to dark object, half press shutter button again locking AE)

The shutter button can be programmed to lock focus only or focus AND exposure. This is selected by the "Shutter button AE lock" item. If set to OFF the exposure will not be locked when half pressing the shutter button.

If half pressing shutter button can reset AE, then I think the camera is alright.

Half pressing the shutter button does not reset the meter, but...

...to check this question I noticed that mine was set to ON all the time so I set it to OFF and voila... Now I can take images like these...









...with large exposure differences and only two seconds apart. This is normal as long as the preview cannot be switched off completely. BTW, even more extreme exposure differences are taking only two seconds to adjust. So now I have to give up AE lock from the shutter button and only use the AE-L/AF-L button for that, but that's fine by me.

BIG THANKS TO YOU, who not even have the camera yet. It is though very strange that my "problem" is gone all the way to Nikon Japan (Sweden -> UK -> Japan) and I received no help so far, in spite the fact that I received several answers and we are still discussing the issue.

Once again, thanks. It seems that you solved my biggest problem with the camera through asking your question and because I wanted to help you out with an answer.

Cheers.

 

[Wayne N.]

If half pressing shutter button can reset AE, then I think the camera is alright.

Half pressing the shutter button does not reset the meter, but...

...to check this question I noticed that mine was set to ON all the time so I set it to OFF and voila... Now I can take images like these...

...with large exposure differences and only two seconds apart.

I have been following this thread, and although I didn't have the chance to do testing until now, I had been scratching my head a bit because I hadn't noticed the issue. I see now that this is because I had my "Shutter button AE lock" set to OFF.

Indeed, with it set to OFF, the exposure changes quite quickly (even using Matrix metering). And when set to ON.... not good! After taking a low light shot and then pointing to the window, you either have to wait the 10 seconds before half pressing the shutting, or you have to keep "pumping" the shutter release half way until it eventually exposes correctly.

I'm quickly setting "Shutter button AE lock" back to OFF LOL!

This is normal as long as the preview cannot be switched off completely.

I'm not sure what you mean there, but that's OK.

Cheers,

Wayne
http://www.pbase.com/wayne_n

 

[jonikon]

I could not help but notice your Oly image is badly OOF! The Nikon did a much better job focusing properly.



--
"Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain! The Great Oz has spoken!"

• Jon

 

[olyflyer]

I could not help but notice your Oly image is badly OOF! The Nikon did a much better job focusing properly.

Actually, it's not the focus but the lack of stabilizer. I mover the camera and immediately pressed the shutter release. Normally I would not do that and as a matter of fact, even the Nikon VR has problems with that if you do it too fast, but since it was the exposure I was interested in, the camera shake I did not care about.