NEX-5 kit 18-55 compare to M43 lens Panasonic Leica Summilux 25mm F1.4

[harry2007]

First of all, please do know that I am not trolling and I do NOT want to stir meaningless fanboyism debate in this thread.

I am trully genuinely asking this question.

Probably this is the stupidest question, if so, then please ignore and I apologize. I am not a prohotographer to be honest.

So here it is ...

I own and use Sony NEX-5 for quite a long time and I use the kit lens 18-55. I often shot casual photo for friends and family, indoor. I choose NEX because of the sensor size.

I got good image quaility, but more often in my house indoor, I got mediocre result.

I use P mode and the NEX register shutter speed of 1/25 or 1/30 max using auto iso 1600 and F3.5, ev +0.3.

From what I learn here I could improve this with faster lens, small F number.
Right, for NEX, I have two options that have AF, I really need AF.

First, SEL50 F1.8, but I dont like the focal length. In indoor situation, I dont have enough room to move back to get all in the frame.

Second, CZ 24mm F1.8, but it is not good for making video. I asked question here yesterday, and this is caused by no OSS. Checked video sample and thats true.

... No solution from NEX lens, at least for now ...

Why not using FLASH? I tried that, and I dont really like the result. I also tried all those DIY to make bouncing flash using card, etc. basically I want to avoid flash.

So yesterday, after browsing this site, and read quite a lot of reviews, news, forums for couple of hours, I got an idea ....

I was thinking how about switching to M43? The latest Panny GX1. It has a very nice Leica lens 25mm F1.4 which is good for low light, good focal length for indoor, and I read it is good also for making video, it has IS.

Thats the story so far ... My question:

Given the above situation with my NEX-5, indoor, getting shutter speed 1/25, F3.5, iso 1600, OK result ... Will I get much better result with M43 Panny GX1 using M43 lens Panny Leica Summilux 25mm F1.4?

What I mean with better is to get faster shutter speed, smaller iso number which means less noise ... And hoping to get much sharper result.

I wish I could borrow or rent M43 system just for trying, but no, I cannot find one in here.

Thats my situation. I love my NEX because it is small with good image quality. I bought several MF lenses, but for me they are not practical for my skills.

Thanks.

 

[IcyVeins]

Don't bother with the GX1, the E-M5 is much better

 

[flicks]

cool, just keep in mind that a 25mm on the m43 sensor is 50mm equivalent...

 

[pete_mb]

Also, your reasoning for dismissing the CZ 24/1.8 was that it's not stabilized for video, but nor is a Panny m43 camera with the 25/1.4 as far as I know.

That given, I would think you'd get better overall IQ from the NEX / CZ combo. And as the above poster noted, it's a fair bit wider - 36mm equivalent focal length versus 50mm for the Panny / 25mm.
--
Pete
http://peterbrockwell.zenfolio.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/pete_mb/

 

[TiagoReil]

Thats the story so far ... My question:

Given the above situation with my NEX-5, indoor, getting shutter speed 1/25, F3.5, iso 1600, OK result ... Will I get much better result with M43 Panny GX1 using M43 lens Panny Leica Summilux 25mm F1.4?

What I mean with better is to get faster shutter speed, smaller iso number which means less noise ... And hoping to get much sharper result.

A Prime lens is designed for quality in that focal length. A Zoom is generally design for convenience, and good enough as posible results in a range of focal lengths(not the best, but as good as possible in that range). So at a given focal length a prime should be better than a zoom. That is in general. Of course there are bad primes and excellent zooms, so depending what you compare, it could be hard to tell.

In this case, in theory the leica should be better, and faster. In practice, I suppose it is, but not that much as comparing just the lenses. The sensor also influences in quality, and the nex sensors are considered better (thats why you get so often here people wanting a nex with m43s lenses, the best of both worlds).

I suppose that for your needs it could be true that a m43s camera with the leica is a better combination. IT doesnt have to be the PAnasonic Gx1. It can be any m43s camera.

But before spending a lot of money, I would look first into what you are doing, what you could do better, and maybe have no need for another camera.

You are saying that you are getting a shutter speed of 1/25, 1/30. What is the focal length of the lens? The reality is that for that Shutter speed, you can have a 25mm or 35mm equivalent. But as you are using stabilization, it could be a bit better, for a couple of stops, so you could have an equivalent to 1/60, 1/80. That means that the kit zoom shouldn't have camera shake. It could be the ISO, or it could be JPG output that is not that good.

Some questions:

Do you use RAW or JPG. Do you use a style? Do you configure white balance? (for indoors it is bad, and generaly gives a very bad orange look, but changing it by hand gives more pleasent results).

IF you are using raw, you could even not use the exposure commpensation, and do it in PP later. Getting even more stops of light for the shutter or for the ISO.

Also, have you tried any of the other auto modes? They are actually quite good. Maybe you like those results, specially if they are just family photos.

Can you post one of the pictures you feel are less flatering?

Also, what is the most common focal length that you use? Check your photos to see which it is.

To answer back, yes the leica should have more light, but at a cost of having a worst sensor, and loosing the flexibility of a zoom. But before running to buy a new camera (unless you are rich, if so go! buy 2 or 3 cameraS) try some tips, or ask for some here, and specially use the modes. Handgeld twilight generally gives very good results. LEarn a bit more to play with the camera. Maybe you wont need that extra speed.

Ti@go.

 

[harry2007]

Thanks for your input.

The M43 Panasonic Leica 25mm F1.4 does not have image stabilization, that's true. For making video, that will produce the same shakyness (not smooth) ...

And you are right ... I thought the Pany GX1 has built-in stabilization system. Unfortunately, it does not.

My mistake ...

 

[deniz erdem]

Thanks for your input.

The M43 Panasonic Leica 25mm F1.4 does not have image stabilization, that's true. For making video, that will produce the same shakyness (not smooth) ...

And you are right ... I thought the Pany GX1 has built-in stabilization system. Unfortunately, it does not.

My mistake ...

you might want to consider omd em5 instead of gx1. it will stabilize the pana 25mm even in video mode, and from the early samples it look like it will have the best m43 sensor so far.

 

[privater]

What your relly need is a HVL-F20S bouncing flash, it's not expensive, and you can enjoy

1/60 f3.5 iso 100 in a very dusky room(with ceiling). this will greatly improve your in-door shoots with people.

 

[harry2007]

Hi,

Thanks for your input and explanation.

I usually shot at 18mm focal length using the NEX-5 kit lens. I hardly change that.

And I don't change anything else indoor, basically:

• AF continuous
• AF illumination OFF
• Average metering
• DRO ON
• +0.3 EV
• Auto WB (I corrected the WB using LR3)

• P Mode
• No style
• Auto ISO

• Shot JPG with the highest quality setting (no RAW)

From the above setting, I usually get F3.5 and shutter speed 1/25 - 1/30 and AUTO ISO produced 1600 ... Sometimes 1250

The problem is not with the camera shake, but the overall image quality that I got were not so sharp.

Probably because of that ISO 1600 ... as I don't print my photos. I always look the result on my 24" monitor using LR3.

Not terrible though, but yeah ... Kind a result that I don't expect from APS-C camera.

I am wondering, if this is limitation in my room lighting or my NEX settings. Because I could see others here produced very nice low light, sharp result ... Using all those fast F1.x manual lenses and or CZ 24mm.

I will do some tests this evening and posts results here.

 

[harry2007]

Here. This is one of the "typical" result that I got ...

 

[TiagoReil]

Ok, I have a couple of suggestions for you.

First, dont correct white balance on JPG. I would say that no processing for JPG. Any processing is going to be destructive of quality, unless they are very very small corrections. White balance correction could be a very big one. So you have 2 optionsÑ

Use Raw. Raw is not hard to use at all. And it is GREAT to changing the white balance without loosing detail.
If you want to use JPG, set the White balance manually.

Again, avoid JPG corrections.

The problem of the speed is not really a problem to you. There is a rule that to avoid camera shake you need to have a speed of 1 / equivalent focal length.

So for you , at 18mm, it is really a 1/27 speed. So the camera is giving you just the good enough speed. But as it is using stabilization, this speed is more than enough to get the picture.

The only problem could be that your model, as in this picture, doesn't stay still. In this case, a fast lens would be better.

Also you can try the 2 modes that I told you before. Handheld Twilight and Anti motion blur. Again this will work better with still subjects, so if it is children that cant stay still, again a fast lens is better.

Finally a word on caution on your chice. Remember that you are using an equivalent 27mm lens. The leica will be a 50mm lens. A lot narrower (not as narrow as the 50 mm sel, that will be a 75 equivalent, but still it will be narrower), so maybe the leica is also not the lens for you. I dont know the line up of the m43s lenses, so I cant recommend there, but actually the 24mm zeiss would be closer. Of course it would be a lot more expensive (and thats why I dont have it).

Get a subject, and try the 2 things I told you. Correct the white balance in jpg internally, or use Raw. And try the modes. They should give you better results. Unless the problem is movement showing in your subject, and in that case, a fast lens is necessary.

Here. This is one of the "typical" result that I got ...

 

[blue_skies]

On RAW

I disagree with the comment that JPG requires no post. Often, white balance, contrast, sharpness, exposure/brightness, and even lens correction can and should be adjusted.

The JPG engine is impressive, and any RAW workflow will take effort to match that.

Technically, RAW has benefits, but for home usage, I'd say JPG is quite usuable.

More can be done on the picture taking side.

As to the picture

Next time, set the white balance to "Incandescent", it will clear up the yellow.
Also, wait for the child to face the camera.

Instead of overexposure, +.3EV, try underexposure, eg. -0.5EV. It will increase the shutter speed.

Choosing the wide angle for speed works, but it doesn't help the image. Consider a longer focal length and using the bounce flash, or turn on more lights.

Also, try A mode at night and S mode in the daytime, to reach maximum aperture at night, and fastest shutter at both times. Do realize that DOF will be less at night.

As to the Leica lens

The 25mm f/1.4 is equivalent to a 50mm FF FOV.

On the Sony Nex, you'd need a 35mm f/1.8 to match that.
closest E mount lens is the 50mm f/1.8.

Both have a fairly narrow FOV for indoors.

You can expect better images with the 50mm on the Nex, as the APS-C sensor yields better DOF at equivalent apertures (1.4 versus 1.8).

On M43

The smaller sensor will yield deeper DOF. The larger crop factor will also yield longer FL lenses that are smaller.

In terms of picture quality, noise mitigation, DOF control, and often perceived quality of the picture, an APS-C sensor will outshine a M43 sensor.

In terms of out of camera sharpness, a M43 sensor will outdo an APS-C sensor due to the same DOF control. Do build a JPG or RAW workflow to get the best out of the Sony Nex.

I don't expect that the M43 with the Leica 25mm lens will be much advantageous over the Nex with the 50mm lens. In fact, I'd expect the opposite.

First, dont correct white balance on JPG. I would say that no processing for JPG. Any processing is going to be destructive of quality, unless they are very very small corrections. White balance correction could be a very big one. So you have 2 optionsÑ

Use Raw. Raw is not hard to use at all. And it is GREAT to changing the white balance without loosing detail.
If you want to use JPG, set the White balance manually.

Again, avoid JPG corrections.

The problem of the speed is not really a problem to you. There is a rule that to avoid camera shake you need to have a speed of 1 / equivalent focal length.

So for you , at 18mm, it is really a 1/27 speed. So the camera is giving you just the good enough speed. But as it is using stabilization, this speed is more than enough to get the picture.

The only problem could be that your model, as in this picture, doesn't stay still. In this case, a fast lens would be better.

Also you can try the 2 modes that I told you before. Handheld Twilight and Anti motion blur. Again this will work better with still subjects, so if it is children that cant stay still, again a fast lens is better.

Finally a word on caution on your chice. Remember that you are using an equivalent 27mm lens. The leica will be a 50mm lens. A lot narrower (not as narrow as the 50 mm sel, that will be a 75 equivalent, but still it will be narrower), so maybe the leica is also not the lens for you. I dont know the line up of the m43s lenses, so I cant recommend there, but actually the 24mm zeiss would be closer. Of course it would be a lot more expensive (and thats why I dont have it).

Get a subject, and try the 2 things I told you. Correct the white balance in jpg internally, or use Raw. And try the modes. They should give you better results. Unless the problem is movement showing in your subject, and in that case, a fast lens is necessary.

Here. This is one of the "typical" result that I got ...

--
Cheers,
Henry

 

[papillon_65]

with the Olympus EM-5, that is a 24mm equivalent lens that would be stabilised on the EM-5. Early reports also show that the EM-5 has extremely good stabilisation and very good high ISO performance. This setup will make an excellent indoor wide angle rig.
--
It's a known fact that where there's tea there's hope.
Tony
http://the-random-photographer.blogspot.com/

 

[harry2007]

Thanks blue_skies,

I have some more comments ...

Instead of overexposure, +.3EV, try underexposure, eg. -0.5EV. It will increase the shutter speed.

I tried this for couple of test shots from the same position and location.

I got the same shutter speed, but better ISO.

+0.3 = ISO 1250
+0.0 = ISO 1000
-0.3 = ISO 800

So, I guess it is better under-exposure and correct the exposure later using PP, right?

Choosing the wide angle for speed works, but it doesn't help the image.

This is interesting, from my current understanding, with the same situation in the example image ... If I use, let say the CS 24mm F1.8, set to P mode ... I might get much better ISO, no? Which will clean the image ... rather than getting ISO 1250 at F3.5.

Consider a longer focal length and using the bounce flash, or turn on more lights.

How longer focal length will improve the image in this situation?

I wish Sony will create fast prime lens with OSS ... But, I could be dreaming!

Thanks.

 

[Lng0004]

Have you considered getting the LA-EA2 and a fast Alpha lens? I see that money isn't really a problem if you have considered the Zeiss 24mm.

You can also purchase the F20S flash which has real bounce, or get the NEX-7 + an Alpha flash.

--
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lng0004/

 

[blue_skies]

I have some more comments ...

Instead of overexposure, +.3EV, try underexposure, eg. -0.5EV. It will increase the shutter speed.

I tried this for couple of test shots from the same position and location.

I got the same shutter speed, but better ISO.

+0.3 = ISO 1250
+0.0 = ISO 1000
-0.3 = ISO 800

So, I guess it is better under-exposure and correct the exposure later using PP, right?

Yes, within limits.

If you don't adjust the ISO, you will get faster shutter speed, useful for indoors action shots.

Choosing the wide angle for speed works, but it doesn't help the image.

This is interesting, from my current understanding, with the same situation in the example image ... If I use, let say the CS 24mm F1.8, set to P mode ... I might get much better ISO, no? Which will clean the image ... rather than getting ISO 1250 at F3.5.

Again, yes. But don't be afraid of ISO 1600 - it looks very clean after post.

Consider a longer focal length and using the bounce flash, or turn on more lights.

How longer focal length will improve the image in this situation?

Think of how you could reframe the image. A quarter size image means double the focal length, and so on.

I wish Sony will create fast prime lens with OSS ... But, I could be dreaming!

The 50mm has OSS.

Thanks.

--
Cheers,
Henry

 

[bsammo]

Some other option's you might want to consider :

• The soon to be released Sigma 30mm f2.8
• Setting the white balance
• Using the flash (you can bounce the flash with the aid of a silver foil covered business card)
• AMB mode

Ultimately, photography is about capturing light - if you have crap light, the result will normally be a crap photograph. You can throw money at the problem, try to fix it in post or buy some books and read up on things like using natural light and composition.

 

[mswlogo]

What your relly need is a HVL-F20S bouncing flash, it's not expensive, and you can enjoy

1/60 f3.5 iso 100 in a very dusky room(with ceiling). this will greatly improve your in-door shoots with people.

I agree learn to use a flash. That was the main reason I got the Nex-7 because it has a real flash mount. I find bounced and diffused works best. Only real flashes do it right, you need power.

Processing raw can give you a couple more stops too.

Even on the 5Dii I carried two 430ex flashes.

You also have to match the existing light warmth with gels or colored diffusers

If you do it right you won't know a flash was used.

 

[GaryW]

On RAW

I disagree with the comment that JPG requires no post. Often, white balance, contrast, sharpness, exposure/brightness, and even lens correction can and should be adjusted.

The JPG engine is impressive, and any RAW workflow will take effort to match that.

Technically, RAW has benefits, but for home usage, I'd say JPG is quite usuable.

I'd agree in general, although for the Nex-5, the JPEG engine isn't the best (perhaps at higher ISO at least).

I'm shooting RAW most of the time these days and using DxO. It feels like a lens upgrade!

More can be done on the picture taking side.

As to the picture

Next time, set the white balance to "Incandescent", it will clear up the yellow.
Also, wait for the child to face the camera.

I agree -- pre-setting the white balance closer to looking good will make it look better, and will help even if you want to compensate later by modifying the JPEG. If your original JPEG is way-off, it'll be harder to get good results adjusting later, but you can still do so -- it's just more compromised/less ideal.

Instead of overexposure, +.3EV, try underexposure, eg. -0.5EV. It will increase the shutter speed.

I agree. For still objects, OSS does a good job, but with kids that don't stay still, it's rough trying to get a clear photo! You might need to sacrifice some quality in the ISO and get the shutter speed up.

Choosing the wide angle for speed works, but it doesn't help the image. Consider a longer focal length and using the bounce flash, or turn on more lights.

Actually, "turn on more lights" was my first thought. Flash is difficult to get to look good; if you can bounce or diffuse it, it may work in more situations.

Also, try A mode at night and S mode in the daytime, to reach maximum aperture at night, and fastest shutter at both times. Do realize that DOF will be less at night.
....

Ok, I have a couple of suggestions for you.

First, dont correct white balance on JPG. I would say that no processing for JPG. Any processing is going to be destructive of quality, unless they are very very small corrections. White balance correction could be a very big one. So you have 2 options

I say, do what you have to do. I've gotten very good results correcting WB on JPEGs, but you have more data to work with if you can do it in-camera before taking the photo. But if you've already taken the photo, no point in crying over a yellow color cast -- go ahead and fix it and get the best out of it!

Use Raw. Raw is not hard to use at all. And it is GREAT to changing the white balance without loosing detail.
If you want to use JPG, set the White balance manually.

This is ideal.

Again, avoid JPG corrections.

The problem of the speed is not really a problem to you. There is a rule that to avoid camera shake you need to have a speed of 1 / equivalent focal length.

So for you , at 18mm, it is really a 1/27 speed. So the camera is giving you just the good enough speed. But as it is using stabilization, this speed is more than enough to get the picture.

The only problem could be that your model, as in this picture, doesn't stay still. In this case, a fast lens would be better.
...

Maybe, but when I've used a 50/1.7, at or near 1.7, the focal plane is so narrow, you don't get much that's sharp. Maybe a nose and one eye! ;-) But still, at f2.8, you're still ahead of the kit lens, and the 50 is more flattering for portraits,so it has it's uses, but it's not the best for indoors except for certain situations in which case it's like a magic lens.

Ideally, I'd like a 24 or wider. I got the 16/2.8, and it's a bit too wide for general use, but you can always crop a bit, I suppose.

Here. This is one of the "typical" result that I got ...

I can't really tell much from this photo. It wouldn't enlarge, so I couldn't tell if it was blurry or not. Is the focus off or is it blurry due to downsizing? There would be an advantage to having a faster lens, but I agree with the others that you can probably try a few things to get the best out of what you have. AMB is really good for these limited-light situations, so it's worth trying (perhaps with the kit lens dialed in closer to 24mm), but also try to see if you can turn on more light!

The 18-55 is at its very worst at 18mm and f3.5. Those who complain about the 16/2.8 might want to try 18/3.5 and see which is better.

--
Cheers,
Henry

--
Gary W.

 

[RicksAstro]

I'd say 1/60 is the minimum shutter speed you should use with people. For the 5N and 7, Auto ISO uses 1/60 as the minimum shutter speed, boosting the ISO up to 3200 (for the 5N) before reducing the shutter below 1/60. So 1 option is to upgrade to the 5N. It's much quieter as well with the front curtain shutter enabled. With the 5, you could use S mode and set the shutter to 1/60 yourself. When you top out the ISO, it will just underexpose the image, but you can adjust that afterwards. I'd suggest raw for indoors, that way you don't have to worry about white balance...just adjust it afterwards. Raw also allows better pushing of the exposure afterwards.

You can also use anti-motion blur setting, which chooses a higher shutter speed and boosts the ISO and takes multiple shots. It's quite effective, but pretty noisy.

The EM5 will be a fantastic choice, and probably the camera to get if I were in your shoes (and I own a NEX7). The stabilization with all lenses, good high ISO performance, great JPG quality, faster indoor AF and quieter operation will probably better fit your needs IMO. Get the Panasonic 20 f1.7, and you've got a nice small combo perfect for indoor shots.

Rick

Here. This is one of the "typical" result that I got ...

--
Rick Krejci
http://www.ricksastro.com