Is it phyiscally possible for a NEX bright pancake prime?

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I don't know much about optics, but there must be a reason why there hasn't been a pancake prime with large aperture for NEX. All the existing primes (30mm, 50mm, 16mm) are either large or have small apertures.

My guess is Sony limited their lens size by using the APS-C sensor size.

So maybe it is futile to keep waiting for a pancake prime like the M43 20mm 1.7 lens for NEX cameras? If that is the case, then maybe it's time to accept the inevitable small body large lens aka NEX system.
 
Samsung do an excellent 30mm f2 compact prime for their aps-c sensor mirrorless NX series.
I don't know much about optics, but there must be a reason why there hasn't been a pancake prime with large aperture for NEX. All the existing primes (30mm, 50mm, 16mm) are either large or have small apertures.

My guess is Sony limited their lens size by using the APS-C sensor size.

So maybe it is futile to keep waiting for a pancake prime like the M43 20mm 1.7 lens for NEX cameras? If that is the case, then maybe it's time to accept the inevitable small body large lens aka NEX system.
 
Body size affects lens size as well. The Fuji X Pro 1 is, according to DPReview, "quite substantially larger than the Sony Alpha NEX-7". That means it has the luxury of being able to use shorter lenses.
No, flange distance on the fuji is 17.7mm vs 18mm on NEX. Fuji is thicker from LCD and maybe they wanted a beefier grip. Who knows.]

However, a larger aperture pancake on NEX might not be very easy to do. Samsung has a flange distance of more like 25mm and so they can make a small 30mm lens fairly easy. NEX might do the same lens and it might be an extra 5 or 10mm thick or so do to the difference in flange distance. However, most would probably consider such a lens small enough. So I think we will see small lenses for NEX, but maybe not many pancakes other than the 16mm or other ultra wides.

All I think Sony needs to do is hurry up and get some lenses available. They have mostly consumer grade lenses, and they go release a pro grade camera like the NEX 7 with only 1 or 2 pretty good lenses.

Eric

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I never saw an ugly thing in my life: for let the form of an object
be what it may - light, shade, and perspective will always make it
beautiful. - John Constable (quote)

See my Blog at: http://www.erphotoreview.com/ (bi-weekly)
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Most Sony lenses are the same size: 2.4 inches (60mm) or so. The Samsung 30mm is 21.5mm deep. If we add a full centimeter to that, we have a lens that is half the size of the common lenses available for NEX.
 
See image below



To realize a 30mm lens, the 'effective' focal length F for the lens must be constructed such that the rays hitting the sensor d mimic the FOV of a 30mm lens.

With a flange distance of 18mm, that leaves 12 mm for the lens. But this is only true if the lens is a single optic, and most are at least five or six elements (to affect COMA, etc).

You can place the group of lens elements at either left or right side of the 'single lens', but you have to cope with the effects. See discussions wrt/ nodal points of lenses.

If you place the elements towards the right of the lens, closer to the sensor, you have to focus the image on a wider area (magnify). (1)

If you place the elements towards the left of the lens, further away from the sensor, you have to focus the image on a smaller area (retro-focus). (2)

If you want a high quality optic, solution (2) gives much more flexibility to the engineers to create an 'optical sound' solution.

But - this is 2012, and we have in-camera processors !!

Solution (1) can be corrected for in software, IF you know the lens characteristics. E.g. the Canon S90/95/100 camera has optically a 'fish eye' view with lots of barrel distortion. In-camera software compensates for this to make it a high quality picture.

On a fixed lens camera, like the Fuji X100, you have full control on optics and software correction.

Oh - but this is not the entire story.

Leica and Fuji already noticed that light fall-off on the edges is a problem with modern sensor designs, and compensated for this by mis-aligning the micro-lens array with the pixel sensor array. Sony has yet to do this - there are reasons to not do this.

On a Leica or Fuji solution, the camera must always know which focal length is placed in front of it, or the in-camera software will 'mess' up the picture. In the Sony, the picture is wysiwyg - it is optically 'the best' possible.

To create a pancake that has e.g. a 30mm Focal Length and protrude as much as the 16mm lens, you would essentially create a 'inverse fisheye' lens on the rear-side of the lens (the sensor side). This lens will have horrible distortion, barrrel, CA, COMA - all of which have to be corrected for in software.

And, by placing all your optics in the (1) solution, you have a limited space for them - this gives the engineers only so many choices - and quality will be compromised as a result. The faster the lens (larger aperture), the more compound the problems. At a higher f-stop, light bending is a lot simpler than at a lower f-stop - for the different wavelengths of visible light. The 16mm lens is very small, but it protrudes about one inch (2.5cm) above the flange distance of 18mm, for a total length of 4.3cm from the sensor - and it is 'only' f/2.8 (which is easy to do achieve for a 16mm - try doing this for a 32mm lens - then try to increase this to f/2.0, lol).

E.g. the Zeiss 24mm has all its optics elements in front of the focal point (2) and, I believe, actually retrofocusses its image to the sensor. Something that even the newer Leica's do. And some prefer the larger Distagons over the smaller Biogons for the same reason.

So yes, pancakes are possible, but not easy when you make them optically correct. Allowing 'distorted' lenses, to reduce sizes, requires adding lens registration and in-camera compensation software becomes a must-have, and decisions whether to align or mis-align the micro mirrors, thickness of AA filter, and so on are all part of the solution.

And ask yourself: if a lens protrudes 4cm versus a lens that protrudes 2cm (e.g. for a 30mm focal length) - would you insist on the 2cm lens with all the compound problems, or would a 4cm lens be acceptable. (I believe that the SEL30M35 protrudes 4.5cm)?
  • Side note: as everything 'scales' with the size of the sensor, a smaller sensor has essentially 'more' space in the same size (pancake) lens. Meaning it is easier to have pancake lenses for a Q or V1 system than for a M43 or APS-C system.
One of the attractions of the Nex system is that it is an 'optically correct' system, allowing adaptation of so many legacy and other name brand lenses. (In 'film' days, there was no 'correction software' possibility).

Going towards a more complex system for 'smallness' is a big step. I am not sure that this is what makes the Nex a Nex. But - as competition gets ahead and shows that it is feasible, I am sure we will get newer solutions.

Disclaimer - I am not an optics designer, not did I study the subject in depth. I merely reflect what I have read in recent articles and discussions around these issues.
  • Take this as a guidance only - I may be erroneous in some assumptions
  • Repeating my earlier point: keeping the Nex an 'optically correct' system is, imo, a big attraction. If pancakes are a "must have", then maybe the Nex is not the right choice? Look into a Q system?
  • Last point - there is 'optics correction' software in the Nex-5N and Nex-7, which is different from the issues discussed above - they deal with lens inefficiencies, such as barrel distortion, vignetting, softness, etc. that are properties of the lens. The in-camera correction software does essentially what the plug in modules do in DxO and LR3 software.
I don't know much about optics, but there must be a reason why there hasn't been a pancake prime with large aperture for NEX. All the existing primes (30mm, 50mm, 16mm) are either large or have small apertures.

My guess is Sony limited their lens size by using the APS-C sensor size.

So maybe it is futile to keep waiting for a pancake prime like the M43 20mm 1.7 lens for NEX cameras? If that is the case, then maybe it's time to accept the inevitable small body large lens aka NEX system.
--
Cheers,
Henry
 
Something you have to remember is that large aperture APS-C lenses tend to be quite wide in terms of lens diameter. I think Sony is trying to limit the width of their lenses to the existing size of all the E-mount lenses (except for the 18-200) because any wider and you won't be able to mount the camera on a tripod because the lens would not sit flush with the bottom of the camera body.

The 18-200 can be wider because it's designed for the larger video cameras. I can imagine the uproar on here if Sony released a 28mm f/1.8 pancake that was wider than existing E lenses and people couldn't use it with their tripod (unless you have a tripod with a very small plate on top).
 
Great post. Bookmarked!
 
See image below

Ok, thanks. Got all that.

However, if NEX is an "optically correct" system and this somehow distinguishes it from other systems, can you explain what Sony means when they state that the camera provides "lens compensation" in camera for distortions (for E mount lenses) such as vignetting, barrel distortion, etc. in jpeg mode? Because this sounds an awful lot like exactly what you're describing for other systems like MFT: mathematical correction of lens distortions to jpegs ( and if you are processing RAW, you're going to correct those in your PP as well).

And still doesn't explain why the NEX primes are mostly big and still mostly crappy. They're still worse AND larger than proportionate to the MFT pancakes. Other thread, they were telling me the shorter register distance is a design ADVANTAGE for making small primes:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1041&message=40416806

I say this not to promote MFT, but more out of frustration with Sony not producing shorter lenses which (from everything I've read so far) should be optically feasible. Same for pancake zooms. They should be able to produce a pancake zoom that's close to the Canon G1X 4x f2.8-5.8, 28-112 equivalent zoom in the BALLPARK of 8mm or less longer for the NEX.

The primes and kit zoom on the NEX are bigger (way worse than proportionally bigger) AND worse quality than some of the best (also reasonably price) offerings from MFT, Canon (built into G1X) and even Samsung. It's just frustrating that NEX, the thinnest body with the best sensor, and the shortest register distance (which makes it easier to make small primes of short focal length), is somehow stuck with lenses that are close to double the length of their competitors.

there is no inherent reason explained thus far, why NEX can't have shorter, better times and decently compact zoom. Not asking for MFT small, but how about linearly proportional or in that ballpark? People often accuse Canon & others of "crippling" any camera that competes with their DSLRs, and I look at NEX, and wonder whether they are "hobbling" the NEX a little bit for now... And will swoop in with the small lenses thee cameras really deserve later. It's paranoid I know, but that NEX 5N should have a gorgeous pancake primes & be pocketable with a G1X style pancake zoom. Just frustrating.
 
Very interesting, I had not thought about it like that. Thanks for opening my eyes, this is why dpreview forums are great! Of course there's a lot of BS to wade through, but worth it when you find something helpful and interesting! Thanks rehabdoc, you made my day!
And still doesn't explain why the NEX primes are mostly big and still mostly crappy.
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However, if NEX is an "optically correct" system and this somehow distinguishes it from other systems, can you explain what Sony means when they state that the camera provides "lens compensation" in camera for distortions (for E mount lenses) such as vignetting, barrel distortion, etc. in jpeg mode? Because this sounds an awful lot like exactly what you're describing for other systems like MFT: mathematical correction of lens distortions to jpegs ( and if you are processing RAW, you're going to correct those in your PP as well).
The difference is in MFT and Samsung NX the corrections are mandatory for lenses. The lens isn't corrected fully, and the intent is to finish correction in software. Lenses like the Samsung 30mm f/2 pancake have something like 5% distortion (like the worst kit zoom at 16 to 18mm that you will see).
And still doesn't explain why the NEX primes are mostly big and still mostly crappy. They're still worse AND larger than proportionate to the MFT pancakes. Other thread, they were telling me the shorter register distance is a design ADVANTAGE for making small primes:
I think MFT and Samsung made the correct design decision as it doesn't preclude making optically corrected lenses vs software corrected, but it does give that option. They show that for kit zooms and even pancake primes they can give satisfactory results, matching or even exceeding the optically corrected lenses.
there is no inherent reason explained thus far, why NEX can't have shorter, better times and decently compact zoom. Not asking for MFT small, but how about linearly proportional or in that ballpark? People often accuse Canon & others of "crippling" any camera that competes with their DSLRs, and I look at NEX, and wonder whether they are "hobbling" the NEX a little bit for now... And will swoop in with the small lenses thee cameras really deserve later. It's paranoid I know, but that NEX 5N should have a gorgeous pancake primes & be pocketable with a G1X style pancake zoom. Just frustrating.
I am a bit afraid the short flange distance along with the optically corrected lenses is causing design constraints where you can get either a compact but poor performing lens, or a better performing but much larger lens. I notice the new Sigma lenses are quite large, but they stated they are emphasizing across the frame image quality. Fuji with its short flange distance seems to have gone the route of slightly larger, but still compact lenses. Definitely not pancacke though.

I think things will improve this upcoming year though, as it sounds like Sony is taking the lens issue more seriously, as many have complained about it. Whether they will be compact lenses or not remains to be seen.

Eric
--
I never saw an ugly thing in my life: for let the form of an object
be what it may - light, shade, and perspective will always make it
beautiful. - John Constable (quote)

See my Blog at: http://www.erphotoreview.com/ (bi-weekly)
Flickr Photostream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/28177041@N03/ (updated daily)
 
"Optically corrected" sounds like a philosophy, not an inherent design constraint, since the camera does provide mathematical correction in the current firmware. Doesn't even require a firmware update. Just turn it on in the menu. (well maybe a firmware update to have the correction show up in the display? On second thought, I'm not 100% sure whether the NEX camera hardware design allows for mathematical lens correction to show up in the live view EVF and main display in "real time". Any engineers here know much about the NEX design? Or whether the software switch for correcting lens distortions Results in a correction of live view? )

The second issue is that the "short flange distance" should not be a "design constraint" on the optics, should it? The fact that the NX mount has a 6.5 mm longer register distance (24.5 mm vs 18 mm) means your WORST CASE SCENARIO limit is to make an identical lens that's just got a 6.5 mm spacer and ONLY that much longer.

The lenses Sony has thrown at us are much bigger than that (and nothing special optically, I'm told)

It's like Sony seems content with having lenses a little smaller than APS-C DSLR, and are no even exploring the potential for the NEX + prime to be tiny, or the NEX + zoom to be Canon G1X thickness.
 
See image below

Ok, thanks. Got all that.

However, if NEX is an "optically correct" system and this somehow distinguishes it from other systems, can you explain what Sony means when they state that the camera provides "lens compensation" in camera for distortions (for E mount lenses) such as vignetting, barrel distortion, etc. in jpeg mode? Because this sounds an awful lot like exactly what you're describing for other systems like MFT: mathematical correction of lens distortions to jpegs ( and if you are processing RAW, you're going to correct those in your PP as well).
The difference is that one is an afterthought (Nex) and the other is a design principle (M43).

M43 have shown that enthusiasts have accepted a 'poor' optic that becomes sharp with the proper correction software. That philosophy got hold as size was what set the M43 apart.

The Nex, with its bigger sensor, can never offer the same compactness. So why try to compete there first? The bigger sensor however, allows comparisons to dSLR. And then the Nex is very compact.

Whether these M43 users will want a Nex, is unclear.

The Nex lenses are 'quality' optics, akin to Minolta/Konica/SonyAlpha heritage. In Japanese thinking, heritage matters.

You have a great and loud opinion, but there are other opinions out there.

I applaud Sony for turning the Nex from the 'best sensor' to the 'best system'.

Have you seen Canon and Nikon putting anything out there that can challenge their own dSLR lines? What if Sony insisted on protecting their Alpha line?

People would be very quick to dismiss the tiny, but compromised lens designs as toy lenses, obviously necessary to fix a flaw. Well, not now :)
And still doesn't explain why the NEX primes are mostly big and still mostly crappy.
Are they?
They're still worse AND larger than proportionate to the MFT pancakes.
Are they?
Other thread, they were telling me the shorter register distance is a design ADVANTAGE for making small primes:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1041&message=40416806
Sensor size dictates lens size. Longest axis.
I say this not to promote MFT, but more out of frustration with Sony not producing shorter lenses which (from everything I've read so far) should be optically feasible. Same for pancake zooms. They should be able to produce a pancake zoom that's close to the Canon G1X 4x f2.8-5.8, 28-112 equivalent zoom in the BALLPARK of 8mm or less longer for the NEX.
Retracted state, I understand. Yes, and maybe a future idea? I see fast lenses as a higher priority than collapsible ones.
The primes and kit zoom on the NEX are bigger (way worse than proportionally bigger) AND worse quality than some of the best (also reasonably price) offerings from MFT, Canon (built into G1X) and even Samsung.
Your frustration is heartfelt, but senseless. Of those mentioned, only Samsung matters, the other ones are smaller sensors.

Samsung builds a smaller lens for a bigger body camera. Are you concerned by the size of the lens or by the size of the lens+camera together. I think the latter matters most.

Put the Samsung lens on an Nex adapter, see how it grows in size?
Heck, look at the tiny Pentax dSLR pancakes. Then put them on an adapter.

Canon, Fuji, even Leica, all have contraptions that 'folds' the lens a little, thereby reducing the lens protrusion when the camera is off.

Personally, it feels like compromising on durability.
It's just frustrating that NEX, the thinnest body with the best sensor, and the shortest register distance (which makes it easier to make small primes of short focal length), is somehow stuck with lenses that are close to double the length of their competitors.
Are you for real? Sony could make an E-mount adapter, something like the LA-EA1, but for 'compact' E lenses, as the adapter now makes up some of the lens length. Would that satisfy you?

You still couldn't pocket the combination, but each lens could be e.g. 2cm shorter that way.
there is no inherent reason explained thus far, why NEX can't have shorter, better times and decently compact zoom. Not asking for MFT small, but how about linearly proportional or in that ballpark? People often accuse Canon & others of "crippling" any camera that competes with their DSLRs, and I look at NEX, and wonder whether they are "hobbling" the NEX a little bit for now... And will swoop in with the small lenses thee cameras really deserve later. It's paranoid I know, but that NEX 5N should have a gorgeous pancake primes & be pocketable with a G1X style pancake zoom. Just frustrating.
Something very wrong in your thinking here. Why would any company, especially Sony, want to cripple its offerings? Inspite of many posts here in past trying to explain real reasons as to why, all I see in your response is "I DON'T LIKE IT!"

With the unexpected success of the Nex, Sony does better, imo, by producing Quality lenses, rather than Compact lenses. When a full offering of quality lenses exist, it allows the engineers to focus on size reduction.

But frankly, I expect this to be paired with a new line of Nex camera bodies, and many tradeoffs as are made for M43, as well as Samsung.

Why not purchase M43 in your case? I am sure that Sony gets that message.

--
Cheers,
Henry
 
According to the specs on DPreview the Fuji 60mm measures 64x71, the Sony e mount 50mm f/1.8 OSS measures 62x62. the fuji 35mm f/1.4 measures 65x55 and sony's 24mm f/1.8 is 63x65. when I first looked at the pictures I got the impression that the lenses were much smaller than sony's, but looking at the specs it would seem that they are not much different in size at all.
Check the size and aperture of the Fuji X pro 1 lenses. APS C doesn't mean extra large
--
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However, if NEX is an "optically correct" system and this somehow distinguishes it from other systems, can you explain what Sony means when they state that the camera provides "lens compensation" in camera for distortions (for E mount lenses) such as vignetting, barrel distortion, etc. in jpeg mode? Because this sounds an awful lot like exactly what you're describing for other systems like MFT: mathematical correction of lens distortions to jpegs ( and if you are processing RAW, you're going to correct those in your PP as well).
The difference is that one is an afterthought (Nex) and the other is a design principle (M43).
Ultimately we care about image quality. And the lens+ correction on MFT seems to work extremely well.

If these "optically correct" lenses from NEX were really so great, I could accept that argument. But they're not.
Whether these M43 users will want a Nex, is unclear.
It's not a war for consumers. For consumers, it' opportunity and choice.

I am shopping for a camera. I am not an MFT or NEX user. I want to buy. Being frustrated at Sony for not producing innovative glass that is PROPORTIONAL to their sensor size, is not because I hate NEX... but because I'd love to buy a NEX with smaller carrying size (lens+camera)
Other thread, they were telling me the shorter register distance is a design ADVANTAGE for making small primes:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1041&message=40416806
Sensor size dictates lens size. Longest axis.
Sensor size and lens dimensions scale linearly. 25% longer long axis of sensor should force you at worst to have a 25% larger lens in length and width.

Sony's are nowhere close to the lens miniaturization we see in MFT.
The primes and kit zoom on the NEX are bigger (way worse than proportionally bigger) AND worse quality than some of the best (also reasonably price) offerings from MFT, Canon (built into G1X) and even Samsung.
Your frustration is heartfelt, but senseless. Of those mentioned, only Samsung matters, the other ones are smaller sensors.
The lens dimensions should only increase linearly with the diagonal of the sensor. So we should only have a 25% longer and fatter Sony lens for the same optical properties. Not something close to double.
Samsung builds a smaller lens for a bigger body camera. Are you concerned by the size of the lens or by the size of the lens+camera together. I think the latter matters most.
Of course len+camera carrying size matters the most. But to make an optically identical setup, at worst, sony lens designs should be as big as Samsungs + 6.5 mm of length. Instead, the sony NEX + lens is much bigger. I was pointing out that the WORST, Sony could do is add 6.5 mm of tube to what Samsung makes and end up with optically identical lenses to Samsung's, only 6.5 mm longer. Obviously a "ground-up design" would not involve dead tube.

Sorry, I didnt' make my point clearer.

It stems from the earlier thread I referenced regarding lens design in general. Obviously from a physics standpoint, if you scale a sensor up by a factor Y, an optically equivalent lens can be made that has linear dimensions Y times the original lens.

My question whether removing the considerable minimum register distance of an SLR (removing mirror box) lessened design constraints on lens size (since you're free to putthe closest element closer or the same as you did before), and the answer was:

"YES, because a lens of focal length shorter than the register distance requires a retrofocal design which is larger. So at least in the case of short focal length lenses, the solution set for whatever optic problem you're trying to solve, now allows for all the possible designs that are closer to the sensor AS WELL AS designs that are farther from the sensor)."

It was not clear to anybody in the thread, whether short register distance allows for smaller solutions for other types of lenses (big zooms, macro, for example
Something very wrong in your thinking here. Why would any company, especially Sony, want to cripple its offerings?
I offered that I recognize such thinking could be paranoia. but certainly its common in the business world. Camera companies frequently leave out sotware features in their "consumer model" cameras that are in their "expert model", that could easily be added with a firmware adjustment, in order to make people buy the more expensive "expert model". Hell sometimes they just turn off the GPS chip in the lower model of phone to differentiate the product from teh moer expensive one.
With the unexpected success of the Nex, Sony does better, imo, by producing Quality lenses, rather than Compact lenses. When a full offering of quality lenses exist, it allows the engineers to focus on size reduction.
You can have both.
Why not purchase M43 in your case? I am sure that Sony gets that message.
Actually I'm still in the market. And I'm open to NEX still. I'm open to MFT.

I look at MFT, and they trade off sensor quality for size. This is INTRINSIC to being smaller than APS-C, and the question will be "by how much?".

Sony has an APS-C sensor and trade off size for sensor quality. But the INTRINSIC limitation (given similar lens innovation) should be linear to the ration of APS-C sensor size and the MFT sensor size (and actually, maybe BETTER than that because the short register distance allows for more degrees of freedom on lens design, at least for short focal length lenses). So at worst, I want Sony's lens+camera body to be 25% thicker (and the lens to be 25% larger diameter) than the MFT lens.

Again, not because I hate NEX... but because I'd love to buy a NEX with smaller carrying size (lens+camera)
 
An aside:

You've convinced me that part of this is design philosophy of the lenses (maybe an outdated one), maybe because the idea of aggressively correcting PREDICTABLE AND SYSTEMATIC BIAS OR DISTORTION in information collection was not something that was "mainstream" in camera design at the time of the mirrorless revolution.

But it seems that it could be a very interesting discussion today, whether aggressively taking advantage of mathematical corrections allows even more freedom in lens design, If barrel and vignetting, etc. are well corrected with software and less constraining issues, and only sharpness, uniform planar focus, and contrast & size become top points of emphasis, future lens designs can be FAR smaller and maybe far better. We do that type of thing all the time in other fields (telescopy, astrophysics, not just optical, but other EM ), where maximum energy collection and resolving power are most important... and spatial fidelity is secondary (and easily corrected with software).

Maybe MFT "got lucky" and chose the right path regarding portable lens design, and the future is all about designing lenses that lend themselves to best correction, and soon NEX and others will have to get on that bandwagon.

The future may very well be all lens designs doing some significant mathematical correction.

Perhaps even custom calibrating the correction for each lens and storing the info in firmware. If they don't do that already to some degree.
 
Product marketing really - building a compact AF lens is a far more complex and costly engineering task than building large AF lenses. Sony simply does not have the need to eat into their profits to build lenses that compete with M4/3 and Samsung as long as people keep buying NEX cameras and existing lenses primarily on the basis of sensor scores.

I look forward to the flurry of development activity at Sony on compact high quality lenses and on AF systems if consumers catch on that Olympus and Panasonic (and perhaps Samsung) now have complete systems with excellent lenses and fast autofocus performance, and that high end P&S camera sensors are becoming good enough.
I don't know much about optics, but there must be a reason why there hasn't been a pancake prime with large aperture for NEX.
There is, but it's not optics, it's marketing. Sony is clueless.
My guess is Sony limited their lens size by using the APS-C sensor size.
The Samsung 30/2 suggests otherwise.
  • Dennis
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