s90/95/100 makes sense. G12 does not

GOBAN SAOR

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S90/95/100 makes sense because it gives best image quality in its class for a pocket sized camera. However the G12 is a rather large camera with the same image quality of the s series but with much inferior image quality to compact system cameras. Why pay top buck for a g12 when you can have the superior image quality and interchangeable lens ability of an Olympus Pen EPL1 for much less .
 
S90/95/100 makes sense because it gives best image quality in its class for a pocket sized camera. However the G12 is a rather large camera with the same image quality of the s series but with much inferior image quality to compact system cameras. Why pay top buck for a g12 when you can have the superior image quality and interchangeable lens ability of an Olympus Pen EPL1 for much less .
OK, your viewpoint is wrong on many levels and since I have both a G11 and a PEN (and have had other compacts and DSLRs) I think I am qualified to address this.

First, it is an open question as to whether the IQ of the S series is the "same" as the G series. While they share the same sensor, there is a camp (myself included) that feels the G lens is better over its entire focal range and hence the overall IQ is a bit superior. But assume for purposes of argument the IQ is the exactly the same or even that the S has some advantages on the wide end due to larger aperture. The G series has a different feature set that many folks prefer to the S series feature set - articulating screen, hot shoe, more direct control dials, etc. On this point alone your sense/no sense distinction is flat out wrong. Also, some of us prefer cameras of the G series size -- I know I deliberately put the S series aside when choosing an enthusiast compact because it was TOO small for me to handle comfortably.

Second, the comparison of G series to compact systems that you pose is unfair and also wrong headed. The problem is that you want to group cameras solely by physical size. That is your perspective and while shared by some is not shared by all, and I suspect your camp is smaller than mine on that point. These are different cameras and there are valid reasons to choose G series over compact system cameras and vice versa.

Third, your assertion that the G series performance versus compact system cameras is "much inferior" seems belied by the many excellent G series images posted on DPreview forums. The larger sensors of the compact system cameras obviously offer better dynamic range and better high ISO performance and more depth of field. But not all photography requires those advantages. In good light, the G series can turn out excellent images that many would have difficulty distinguishing from images taken by larger sensor cameras, especially if you are not printing large or doing excessive pixel peeping. Do some searching. There are a number of threads on this point.

Fourth, the G series has some advantages over bigger sensor cameras, especially in doing macro work. My G series will close focus at 1 cm without adding a special lens. My PEN won't -- the kit needs a more than a few inches. Plus, the deeper DOF on the G series can be a real plus in doing macro work. Even with a dedicated macro lens for my PEN, I usually default to the G11 for macro work. Plus, with the dedicated macro and 4/3 to m4/3 adaptor, my PEN is huge in comparison to my G11, a much bigger difference than G series to S series.

This takes me to my fifth point -- you assume lens interchangeability is always desirable. Well, it isn't and the fact that DSLR superzoom lenses sell so well and that many owners of DSLRs never change lenses speaks to that point. The point of my G series is to cover a large focal range (efl 28-140) with one fixed lens in a camera body/lens combo that is essentially the same size as just the body of my PEN E-pl2. I love my PEN, but it replaced my DLSR, not my G series. My G series is my carry everywhere camera. It fits in my coat pocket. My PEN won't, not with the kit lens, which only covers efl 28-84. That is why I choose to spend "top buck" for my G series. Once you add anything other than a wide angle pancake prime to a PEN like the EPL1 you mention or my EPL2, it becomes a bulkier camera than the G series. Some folks want the portability of the G series and all of the other features it offers that compact system cameras cannot offer.

I suggest you consider that other folks have different priorities than you do before you go off half cocked posting about what makes sense and what doesn't. If anything makes "no sense," it is rudely comparing cameras based solely on physical size. I wouldn't trade my G series for an S series under any set of circumstances. It is worth every penny I spent on it. It makes a lot of sense for me and the way I shoot and if you bothered to read all of the S vs. G series posts in the Canon forum you would see there that are plenty of folks that agree with me. The G series is a much longer running series than the S with many more iterations. Seems odd to me that such a "nonsensical" camera would do so well and have so many fans. You might prefer the S series and I happily grant you that. The S series cameras are fine cameras. But the fact that I prefer the G series to the S doesn't mean the S series "makes no sense."

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RaymondR
 
I think GOBAN achieved his purpose :)
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Phil
 
S90/95/100 makes sense because it gives best image quality in its class for a pocket sized camera. However the G12 is a rather large camera with the same image quality of the s series but with much inferior image quality to compact system cameras. Why pay top buck for a g12 when you can have the superior image quality and interchangeable lens ability of an Olympus Pen EPL1 for much less .


I disagree completely.
The S-Series and the G-Series cameras are two very different machines:
  • The S-Series has the best image quality in a Subcompact camera.
  • The G-Series is the nearest thing to a DSLR in a Compact camera as it can accept accessories and external Speedlite flashes for Studio Work and has superior image quality ... even over the S-Series cameras. It has a fixed, built-in flash which means no external parts to break in relation to a pop-up flash.
Why would you want interchangeable lenses like on the Olympus Pen series cameras? Do you not realize that there are significant disadvantages to having to carry additional lenses to cover the zoom range? That removing a lens enables sand, dust, lint and hair into the camera body near the sensor? Does the Olympus Pen have a flip-out LCD screen? The Olympus Pen EPL1 was released some time ago and is a flawed design. The Olympus EPL1 has a low resolution screen, no orientation sensor, a cheap build quality, poor preview results and (as described in the DPreview review) difficult to use with "poor dynamic range". Olympus are capable of making good cameras... but they got onto the Micro Four Thirds consortium bandwagon and that's where compromises overran practical applications.

By comparison, the S-Series and G-Series cameras are famous for their superb Dynamic Range and ease of use... and, most importantly, their image quality. The Olympus Pen EPL1 is MUCH thicker across the middle with the lens attached than even the G11.

But they both serve a different niche, have different strengths and benefit different types of users. Many famous design studios, film production companies, serious amateurs plus a handful of professional photographers will use the G-Series cameras... and actually prefer them over DSLRs. Such companies may also buy a DLSR but it will usually be a mid-range Canon DSLR with one good L-Series lens that covers the majority of the range that they need to use. They would not consider using an Olympus EPL1.

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Regards,

Marco Nero.
http://www.pbase.com/nero_design/powershot_pro1

 
some very thorough answers, and i agree with them - the g series has always been a different animal, and lots of pros and semi pros i know use them as a second camera.

i recently tried a g12 for the first time, and the external controls blew me away. i'd say that depending on what and how you shoot, having all that stuff at your fingertips rather than buried deep in menus can really give you control. btw, it's not a big camera - it's just not a compact.
 
The G series is a much longer running series than the S with many more iterations.
The rest of what you said made good sense (though it was rather rambling and repetitive), but this is incorrect. The first S series Powershot, the S10, was announced in August 1999. The S100 was announced in September 2011. So, the S series has so far spanned 12 years. The G1 was announced in September 2000. The G12 was announced in September 2010. So, the G series has so far spanned 10 years (11, if we presume that another G is in the pipeline). There have so far been 12 S series Powershots (S10, 20, 30, 40, 45, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 95, 100) and 10 G series Powershots (G1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 9, 10, 11, 12). You might be confused by the fact that there was a substantial gap between the S80 and the S90, but they are parts of the same series. The body was redesigned with the S90. The earlier S series Powershots were bulkier, though still much smaller than the G series. I still have my S45, which was the S equivalent to the G3.

Alastair
http://anorcross.smugmug.com
Equipment in profile

 
btw, it's not a big camera - it's just not a compact.
Don't worry, the G-Series is still classified as a "compact digital" camera. That's actually how it is defined as per body size. Even the MUCH LARGER Canon Powershot Pro 1 was classified as a Compact Digital camera.

Smaller cameras about the size of the IXUS range are called 'sub-compacts'. Because they are smaller than compact cameras.

The next size up from a Compact Camera is a Digital SLR (DSLR), followed by Medium Format and then Larger Format cameras which are much larger and use a larger sensor (if digital).

See below for scale and you will see that the G11 (and all G-Series cameras) are compact cameras:



Canon Pro1 with a Canon G11 and a Canon s95 Note how small the G11 is compared to the Pro1. Now look below and compare the Pro1 to an SLR.



Canon SLR with a Canon Pro1 and a Canon IXUS

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Regards,

Marco Nero.
http://www.pbase.com/nero_design/powershot_pro1

 
Why pay top buck for a g12 when you can have the superior image quality and interchangeable lens ability of an Olympus Pen EPL1 for much less .
How about... because I do NOT want interchangeable lens ability which add bulk to the camera? Have you seen the size of the lens required to capture 28-140 range of G12, or better yet 35-210 range of G7 (that I currently own and desperately wait for a worthy successor?) Has it occurred to you that some people actually prefer versatility over bulk/interchangeability?
 
point taken, my mistake.
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RaymondR
 
I own a S90 and considering the S100 upgrade but I don't think there is enough to make me open my wallet.

I agree that once a camera can't fit in the pocket of your choice (in my case, shirt pocket) that size of a G12 verses a Pen or Panny 4/3 or Sony NEX becomes mostly a moot issue-- Yes, a G12 beats then in size with a comparable lens but the performance and size comparision is like comparing is a Toyota Corolla versus BMW 5 series. In fact I have a DSLT (A55) that I like a lot and the smaller size of a comparable camera such as a NEX-5 (or G12) doesn't do much for me since neither one makes carrying easier.

To me, the travel zooms such as the NIkon 9100 are the natural competition for the G12. G12 may smoke them in pic quality (never compared them) but the 9100 fits into way more pockets and purses.

The bigger problem for Canon is that the feature set is about two generations behind the Sony and Panasonic sensor competition (Sony, Nikon, Olympus et al). At least they caught up w/ HD video.

Most all of the competition's cameras have great features such as sweep panorama, hand held HDR, faster shooting rates and better twilight processing. Canon sticks with fussy panorama, slow shot to shot times and a mostly useless HDR (since one needs a tripod).

So Canon, has a hard time explaining how these features are standard on cameras that cost half as much and are also are good enough for cameras that cost twice as much. Canon is sleeping.

When someone comes out with a camera with the above features, in the size of a S series (with the same or bigger sensor) I won't think twice about an upgrade.
 
S90/95/100 makes sense because it gives best image quality in its class for a pocket sized camera. However the G12 is a rather large camera with the same image quality of the s series but with much inferior image quality to compact system cameras. Why pay top buck for a g12 when you can have the superior image quality and interchangeable lens ability of an Olympus Pen EPL1 for much less .
I have an E-PL1 that I bought thinking it's small size would allow me to have better IQ but still allow me to have the camera with me all the time. Well, it has excellent IQ. But it still sits in the closet only coming out when I want to specifically take a camera out to shoot. Slightly more often than my RB67 medium format film camera.

I recently bought an S95 to replace my Elphs. Like my Elphs, it is sized to be slipped in a case that I wear on my belt along side my cellphone. I put it on when I get dressed like my shoes and like my shoes it's always there. Although the S95 doesn't compare with the E-PL1 in IQ, interchangeable lenses, bokeh, less DOF for portraits, it can't be beat for out-and-about landscape and people and city street shooting because it's always there.
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/alanklein2000/sets/
 
as long as Canon keeps selling a lot of G series cameras, which it has never had a problem doing, there is no explaining to do.
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RaymondR
 
I think more than anything, it comes down to individual choice. Some people will want the S95/100 and some people will want the G12. The differences are welll known so no need to repeat.

I just bought a G12 for several reasons. The big one for me is not so much pocketablity but size. I wanted something that wasn't too big but not as small as the S95/100. I also like the retro look of the G12 and the ease of getting to those function buttons/dials.

Technology is bringing a transition period into camera design and it is going to be interesting to see what happens over the next few years. It is not only P & S's that will be impacted but DSLR's as well. The G12 is getting dated compared to other choices on the market for now but wait and see what Canon comes up with to replace the 12.

I knew all this when I bought the 12 and have no regrets.
 
Isn't it great to hear from experts about all the problems Canon has? I'm so glad I read this, because otherwise I would never have known. Most of what I know about Canon comes from my experience with their cameras and lenses. I own, and have owned, a bunch of their cameras and lenses, starting way back with the A-1, and continuing to the 7D and S100. I don't know of a better APS-C DSLR or pocket-sized compact currently available. I have somehow managed to take thousands of great (at least to me and those I've shown them to) pictures with my numerous Canon cameras. I've also seen many great pictures from others who have Canon cameras. I've also read that Canon continues to sell millions of cameras and lenses. I understand that they are a rather large camera company, who have been in business very successfully for years. From this, and my experience, I wouldn't have guessed that they have these problems. But, apparently, they do. Go figure. :)
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Alastair
http://anorcross.smugmug.com
Equipment in profile

 
I think Canon could have done more with G12

a. G 12 has lost fantastic fast lens of early G series. In fact it is slower at wide end than current s series. Original G series had faster lenses that their s series.Lens now similar to cheaper compact cameras. G3 had f2 to f3 over entire zoom range

b. For size of camera zoom range is limited. Zooms no further than early G series from 2003 !
c. Optical viewfinder should be much better
d. For camera size sensor should be larger.

In fact the current s series can do almost everything a G series can do, except in a compact take anywhere package.

Anyway enough of my ramblings. Thanks for posts and wish all members a happy and peaceful New Year.
 

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