D7000 versus 60D

[bluestreakrem]

I'm pulling my hair out trying to decide which camera I should get for my first DSLR. Thirty years ago I use to shoot film on an Olympus OM-1 (manual only) with five lenses, so I understand the aspects of film photograph but the digital stuff is new to me. I do have a 5.3 pixel point and shoot but I want to step up to the real DLSR world. I'll probably shoot wildlife and kid sports mostly. The complexity of these two cameras is not scaring me but the learning curve will be extensive until it all starts to come back to me. I want to have control over the picture quality. I didn't know post capture image work was so necessary in the digital world. I read the "Glossary of Terms" twice!

I've read all the reviews on both of these and the pro and cons of each but it hard to make the decision. I've read as many of the articles on these two as I can stand. My eyes are ready to fall out.
Please comment on anything you see.
Thanks

Canon
Pros

• This hobby is going to get expensive and it appears Canon lens and bodies are a little cheaper with more lens choices.
• Swivel LCD
• Two more pixels
• Better video and pics than the D7000 (According to most reviews I read. I know opinions will vary on this)

Cons:

• No AF lens micro adjustment capability (How often do you need this feature?)
• Very long AF times in Live View mode
• Crappy kit lens build quality. ( I'm use to quality all glass lens. I can't believe they use plastic lens elements so much now.)
• No "Full Time AF" in video mode.............Really!

Nikon
Pros:

• More AF points, 19 versus 9 on the Canon
• Bigger view finder and reveals 100% of image versus 96% on Canon
• Has an AF Assist light. I don't think the 60D does. Is this an important feature?
• Mag body versus plastic
• Dual card slots
• Infared remote control Does 60D have this feature?
• Built-in Interverlometer Does 60D have this feature?
• Quite single frame mode (MirrorUp mode) Does the 60D have this feature? I'd like that for up close wildlife work.
• Two year warranty versus one on Canon
• Full Time AF in video mode

Cons:

• ISO button is located in a hard to reach location according to reviews. Is it for you?
• No histiogram in Live View mode
• Most accessories seems to cost more than the Canon stuff
• No swivel LCD

 

[Brad99]

There's video of a 60D and D7000 panning to follow a fast river boat on this page (part 2) .....

The D7000 couldn't hack it at all due to the small buffer and slowed to an absolute crawl. The 60D was a lot better.

 

[jonrobertp]

Had the 50D, passed on the 60D...got the D7000. Try each and then decide.

 

[Alphoid]

Swivel LCD is less than useful for anything other than macro -- the live view has uselessly bad autofocus. If you want working live view, Sony, Olympus, and Panasonic are the way to go.

Canon does have better video. Sony is better than Canon. Panasonic is better than Sony.

Plastic lens elements? Whatever gave you that idea. The kit lenses ain't bad for anything other than low light. If you do want low light, Sony a77 has a very nice kit lens. f/2.8 constant aperture.

Of the two cameras, I'd suggest the D7k. Better sensor, better ergonomics. I'd also suggest looking at cheaper cameras, and use those to learn. I also wouldn't worry about build quality unless you plan to go pro and e.g. shoot wildlife in Antarctica for National Geographic every weekend.

 

[Digirame]

That's a great answer..."I also wouldn't worry about build quality unless you plan to go pro and e.g. shoot wildlife in Antarctica for National Geographic every weekend." I love it. LOL

I think you're right...just don't drop it on the ground, throw it, or toss it into water...they are pretty strong.

 

[Virginia Bill]

Canon
Pros

• This hobby is going to get expensive and it appears Canon lens and bodies are a little cheaper with more lens choices.
• Swivel LCD
• Two more pixels: absolutely meaningless
• Better video and pics than the D7000 (According to most reviews I read. I know opinions will vary on this): technically accurate, but neither is very good at shooting anything more than brief video clips

Cons:

• No AF lens micro adjustment capability (How often do you need this feature?): most people don't use this
• Very long AF times in Live View mode: generally true of dlsr's.
• Crappy kit lens build quality. ( I'm use to quality all glass lens. I can't believe they use plastic lens elements so much now.): the lens elements are still glass, but less expensive lenses use plastic mounts. "Crappy" is too strong a word, but the Nikon kit lenses feel more solid than the Canon ones.
• No "Full Time AF" in video mode.............Really!: True of many dslr's.

Nikon
Pros:

• More AF points, 19 versus 9 on the Canon
• Bigger view finder and reveals 100% of image versus 96% on Canon
• Has an AF Assist light. I don't think the 60D does. Is this an important feature?
• Mag body versus plastic: yes, but does this really matter to you?
• Dual card slots: yes, but does this really matter to you?
• Infared remote control Does 60D have this feature?
• Built-in Interverlometer Does 60D have this feature?
• Quite single frame mode (MirrorUp mode) Does the 60D have this feature? I'd like that for up close wildlife work: if you're close enough to wildlife for this matter, the creature is probably dead.
• Two year warranty versus one on Canon
• Full Time AF in video mode: yes, but how effective, fast, reliable, quiet is it? Neither of these is a video camera.

Cons:

• ISO button is located in a hard to reach location according to reviews. Is it for you?
• No histiogram in Live View mode
• Most accessories seems to cost more than the Canon stuff
• No swivel LCD

Overall, I think the choice between these two very capable, generally comparable cameras boils down to ergonomics (and price if you're on a tight budget). Having done your online research, you're ready to visit a store and compare the two in real, 3-D life. One will probably feel better (weight, size, placement of controls) to you; that's your camera.

 

[MRM4350]

• ISO button is located in a hard to reach location according to reviews. Is it for you?

I would suggest that you try each camera before you believe this as a 'Con' for the Nikon.
--
Michael

 

[manmachine242]

it is a very bad idea to choose a system by means of camera especially nowadays. Lower shadow noise but stronger noise reduction (even in RAW) at one of them, higher shadow noise but better per-pixel sharpness at the others one.

The optics and accessories are much more important. They will outlive 2..3 camera generations at least. And there are significant differences between two systems.

But you will not be able to exploit the real image quality of any new camera without learning the RAW development. It is the most important thing if you are coming from analogue (film) or p&s world.

--
the browser based optical simulation tool

http://nagykrisztian.com/synthrays/

 

[Colweb]

I'm pulling my hair out trying to decide which camera I should get for my first DSLR.

About 6 months ago I did the same. But don't worry, it will grow back.

Had a 3.1MP Sony and wanted something much better. Did read to much reviews and that made things even more difficult. Luckily you are already back to choosing between 2 cameras.

I looked at the Sony, Nikon and Canon. Finally bought the D7000 and oh boy what a machine. I don't shoot video with it (still have a Sony camcorder) so can't tell anything about that. But the quality of the photos is superb. And it has so much options to play with.

I'm very happy with the D7000. With my old 3.1MP camera I did make about 3600 photos in 9 years. In 6 months with the D7000 I'm already over 4000!!

Lets address your "cons";

ISO button is located in a hard to reach location according to reviews. Is it for you?

No. I use mine if possible in ISO 100 or let the camera decide (set it to max 1600 - outdoors, or 6400 - indoors). And if I want to switch from my default 100 to something else, I do it while not looking through the view finder.

No histiogram in Live View mode

I don't use Live View mode much. Always use the optical view finder. It's much easier to keep the camera still and the horizon level if you press it against your face and look through the optical view finder. Sometimes I use live view, when I keep the camera above my head or low by the ground.

Most accessories seems to cost more than the Canon stuff

That's true. And they keep their value very well. In my country, most second hand Nikon stuff is more expensive as second hand Canon stuff. Don't know if it has anything to do with build quality as I don't own Canon stuff to compare.

No swivel LCD
So far, I don't miss it.

 

[photog7320]

Don't choose based on camera body. Choose based on the entire system.

I like Canon's lens library a bit more because they have a few more choices, and a few more moderately priced lenses with USM and IS. Some of their f/4L lenses are perfect for photographers on a budget who still want top notch build and image quality. But to be truthful both systems are excellent and you can accomplish your goals with either.

It's also worth checking out each body in a store. People argue about ergonomics, but a lot of ergonomics comes down to what you're used to. Still, some cameras fit some people's hands better than others.

Image quality is about as even as you can get between two cameras. Learning to expose digital properly, process RAW files properly, and choosing good glass will make the difference in the IQ of your shots, not any tiny differences between these two sensors.

FYI, properly shot and processed these cameras are a match for old MF film prints up to 24". We are living in a golden age of photography. So stop worrying, you won't go wrong with either.

 

[scorrpio]

Canon
Pros

• This hobby is going to get expensive and it appears Canon lens and bodies are a little cheaper with more lens choices.

Frankly, you should be comparing D7000 to 7D, not 60D. They are much closer price-wise. (D7000 body $1300, 7D body $1350, 60D body $900 - note the difference?)

• Swivel LCD

Can be exceptionally useful or totally useless depending on type of photography you do. Video, macro, close to ground and above-the-head shots - all benefit.

• Two more pixels

Mega that is. Not a factor, really.

• Better video and pics than the D7000 (According to most reviews I read. I know opinions will vary on this)

I am happy with video and pics I get from my 60D. I am sure D7000 users who know how to use it are happy with theirs.

Cons:

• No AF lens micro adjustment capability (How often do you need this feature?)

I could be lucky, but all my lenses are spot on with my 60D. Others might not be so lucky.

• Very long AF times in Live View mode

Depends on light, lens, and how far are you from being in focus. My 70-200 f/2.8 is pretty snappy. And you also have Quick AF mode where screen briefly blacks out and phase AF is used.

• Crappy kit lens build quality. ( I'm use to quality all glass lens. I can't believe they use plastic lens elements so much now.)

The 'elements', that is, optical parts, are all glass. Also, kits for 60D are 18-135 and 18-200, both have metal mounts and better builds than Rebel-issue 18-55. Besides, if you don't like the kit lens, sell it and buy something better.

• No "Full Time AF" in video mode.............Really!

Given the live AF tendency to 'hunt' and its tendency towards being noisy, unless a USM lens is used, I'd say AF on an SLR is a mixed blessing. If you are into video, check out Magic Lantern - it takes Canon SLR videography to next level.

Nikon

A quick reminder: you are comparing a $1300 camera to a $900 one here. Take a look at $1350 7D to even things out.

Pros:

• More AF points, 19 versus 9 on the Canon

I find 9 points enough, especially ability to select any given point with a single button press. 7D has 19 points, all cross-type. D7000 actually got 39 AF points, not 19, but only 9 are cross-type.

• Bigger view finder and reveals 100% of image versus 96% on Canon

Hardly a factor, but 7D also has 100%

• Has an AF Assist light. I don't think the 60D does. Is this an important feature?

60D uses pop-up flash for AF assist. Rather bright and annoying. In low light, I use 430EX II flash, which features a nice red AF assist.

• Mag body versus plastic

7D is also metal, And 60D is plenty tough.

• Dual card slots

Nice feature, no argument there.

• Infared remote control Does 60D have this feature?

If you mean infrared flash control, yet. If you mean camera control via IR remote, yes.

• Built-in Interverlometer Does 60D have this feature?

No intervalometer. But if this feature is so important, you can pick a wired remote/intervalometer for less than $50. Or you can install Magic Lantern - which has this feature.

• Quite single frame mode (MirrorUp mode) Does the 60D have this feature? I'd like that for up close wildlife work.

I believe it does have that mode.

• Two year warranty versus one on Canon

Good stuff.

• Full Time AF in video mode

What dpreview has to say on that:

However, no matter what lens you use you should be aware that Auto Focusing in video mode with a large sensor camera is often a tricky affair. Due to the limited depth of field, and focussing errors are very obvious, and whilst fairly effective, AF-F can be a little 'jumpy' as it tries to keep up with the action. Focusing manually gives you more control and can yield better results. That said, AF-F performs pretty well - certainly better than we expected, and only really struggles when tracking sudden leaps from close to distant focus.
Looks like it works, but D7000 is no camcorder.

Cons:

• ISO button is located in a hard to reach location according to reviews. Is it for you?

I find any buttons on the left side of camera back unusable. Thankfully, 'delete' is the only left side button on 60D. Ergonomics compatibility is #1 reason I went Canon.

• No histiogram in Live View mode.

I don't think 60D has it either - unless you use Magic Lantern.

• Most accessories seems to cost more than the Canon stuff

Did you look at 3rd-party accessories?

• No swivel LCD

Deal-killer for me, some others could not care less.

 

[edu T]

With regards to ergonomics, may I take advantage of this thread to ask this to people experienced with both or either Canon and Nikon:

• How good is to have a back control dial?

On a D300 you can, for instance, set aperture with your index finger already placed on the shutter button, without having to constantly flex/move the finger along two axes. I'd guess this has potential to shorten overall shutter lag (operator included, I mean ) and probably lessen camera shake too.

Or to the contrary, do you feel that in practice this back/front dial placement doesn’t really matter? Thanks for your hands-on impressions.

 

[bluestreakrem]

Overall, I think the choice between these two very capable, generally comparable cameras boils down to ergonomics (and price if you're on a tight budget). Having done your online research, you're ready to visit a store and compare the two in real, 3-D life. One will probably feel better (weight, size, placement of controls) to you; that's your camera.

Dude.............I've been to three different stores, for a total of about five times handling these two, spending hours working the features, and still can't make up mind. Ha Ha Ha!

The deal breaker for me on the Canon is the Fine Micro Adjustment feature for AF. I'm anal about wanting the focus to be as good as it can be so I feel it should have this feature. I can't beleieve Canon took it out of the 60D!
I'm I over stressing the need for this feature?
How often do yall need to correct for a Front or Back focusing lens?
If I had 5 lens.............How many would be off enough to warrant correction?

I watched a vedio review stating a particulare kit lens was 5-10 points out of focus on a test chart. That seems like a lot and it was in need of correction via the Fine Micro Adjustment feature. He was reviewing a Nikor lens on the D7000 body.

I just can't beleive Canon would take that feature out of a camera that has a price point like the 60D.

 

[Deleted1929]

How often do yall need to correct for a Front or Back focusing lens?

So far never.

I find that not testing lenses makes a difference, as I just use lenses to take real world shots. I have also gone to the trouble of learning how to control the AF system and accept it's limitations - all AF systems have limitations and situations they can't resolve automatically.

--
StephenG

 

[brucet]

I fine tuned my kit 18-105 a few stops for some back focus. (About 5 if I remember). The ONLY time it's an issue is with fine up close work. For 99.99% of the time you'll never see a difference in real life. Then, being aware of it, I just focus accordingly. My Tokina 12-24 is spot on.

Re the location of the ISO button. I change my ISO a lot. So I simply made the rear command dial the ISO adjustment. Now I just use my thumb for adjustments. One of the good points about the D7000 are all the ways in which you can customise it.

The D7000 is truly a nerds camera.

Luv it.

 

[Colweb]

The deal breaker for me on the Canon is the Fine Micro Adjustment feature for AF. I'm anal about wanting the focus to be as good as it can be so I feel it should have this feature. I can't beleieve Canon took it out of the 60D!

I have the D7000 and 3 lenses. Never used the adjustment as it is not needed. That's maybe why Canon "took it out of the 60D".

The Nikon D7000 and D5100 use the same sensor and most users use the same lenses. Strange that only D7000 users post about adjustments being made, while almost all D5100 users don't complain about front- or back focus. The simple fact that you can adjust, might mean that some users think you need to adjust.

But even if your lens(es) need some adjustment, you can always ask Canon or Nikon to make the adjustment for you. That way you are also sure that the adjustment is spot on.

 

[brucet]

Colweb I can't follow your logic!

Nikon included the finetune for a reason. Many users have made use of the fine tuning. It worked for me and it worked for many others. 'Expert' reviewers think it's a good feature. You can finetune a numbers of lens and the camera remembers the settings for each lens.

But as I said in my earlier post. It's not critical. For me. But it is there. It is useful and it does work.

So why do you think it's not relevant?

 

[snake_b]

"If you do want low light, Sony a77 has a very nice kit lens. f/2.8 constant aperture. "

On paper, it sounds quite nice, but Sony uses that translucent mirror, and if I'm not mistaken, that removes roughly 1/3 of a stop of light that reaches the sensor. I could be wrong, but it seems like there has to be a tradeoff there.

Other than that, the OP needs to try them all out.

 

[Alphoid]

On paper, it looks bad. In practice, the Sony sensor is better than the one in e.g. the 60D. When you combine the loss of the mirror and the gain of the sensor, the low-light performance of both cameras is identical -- by DxOMark, within 1%.

Perhaps more importantly, a 30%, even if it were there, would make almost no difference in practice. The eyes are logarithmic in how they perceive light. A 30% difference is almost indistinguishable outside of laboratory test conditions. An f/2.8 lens will let in 4x as much light as an f/5.6 kit at 50mm. That's a 4x difference. You really do notice it. If you really care about low light, the Sony also lets you combine fast primes with IBIS. That's also a 4x advantage over Canikon's finest.

My view is that the obsession with low-tens-of-percent differences in sensor performance comes from neophytes who don't know how to do low light (typically, tripod, flash, and/or fast lens), and blame cameras for the difference between their results and those of pros. Any photo taken five or more years ago -- with the exception perhaps of full frame and medium format -- was taken with a camera with worse low-light than a modern, $400 dSLR. What's missed in the process are much more important specs -- ergonomics, dynamic range, focus system, and dozens of other things that make a much more real difference in photographic performance.

 

[Deleted1929]

The problem with MFA is that beginners assume it will fix their errors in trying to focus.

Rather that carefully reading and applying the material in e.g. the manual,they instead rush straight to "I have back or front focus", alter the MFA settings and then convince themselves the problem is fixed. It's something like blaming the car for the fact you lost control at high speed and crashed.

Why do we see so many MFA complaints on the D7000 ? It's a sophisticated system designed for enthusiasts with either a solid understanding of how things work ( and when they won't ! ) or who will learn how the system works and it's limitations. But these systems are, increasingly, been bought as giant P&S systems by users who expect the system to do it all for them.

Once other owners see these ill-informed D7000 users complaining about back and front focus they also start believing in mythical back and front focus. It certainly can't be their fault, seems to be the logic.

Beginner's messing with MFA is something like aircraft passengers messing with the engines. A recipe for disaster, albeit without potential loss of life in this case ( luckily ).

--
StephenG