K-5 values are all blinking

[DPNick]

I just bought a K-5 and I'm reading through the manual, taking a few test shots etc.

One thing I noticed very quickly since I started at night, was that the aperture, shutter speed, ISO, and flash warning were constantly blinking, on the top lcd, rear lcd, and viewfinder. At first I thought something was massively wrong, that the camera had locked up, but it seemed to be ok. I turned it off and on, but still these values were blinking.

I then did a search through the pdf manual for blink, and it seems to be normal behaviour for the flash warning to blink when the camera senses its need, and normal for either the aperture, shutter speed, or ISO to blink when the limit is reached in those respective modes, but there's nothing I found in the manual about all of them blinking at once, hence my thought that something was wrong.

I updated the firmware to the latest, but this behaviour did not change. I then experimented by raising the flash, and then all the blinking would stop, so it seemed conclusive that either the manual was incorrect or that my sample is defective.

It even happens in manual mode, which is patently bizarre. First, why should there be any warning of a need for flash in manual, and second the flash warning doesn't blink in manual!

Then I realized that perhaps the blinking meant I was out of the EV range of the meter, and was unconnected to the flash warning, but I metered the same scene with my 5D and my Nex-5N and neither complained, so the admittedly dim room I was in was not exactly a coal mine.

Is this normal behaviour, and can anything be done about it? I shoot a lot under dim light and there's no way I could tolerate the viewfinder constantly flashing at me. I can turn off the external lcds so no biggie there, but how to stop the vf? I really want to keep this camera, it's awesome, but this is a dealbreaker for my work.

Thanks for any help

 

[steephill]

Pentax won't meter beyond the stated EV range. Other brands will though even if the reading is inaccurate. How dark was it and which lens was mounted? Remember than the EV range is stated using an f1.4 lens and ISO100. A slower lens will reduce the EV range available.

--
Steve

http://www.pbase.com/steephill

 

[DPNick]

Dim room, lens was the 17-70 f/4, ISO set to 6400, which was enough for 1/10-1/20 depending on where I was aiming.

Don't forget the blinking stops if the flash is raised, so there must be come connection.

 

[ukwoody]

I actually noticed the same problem last evening when trying to shoot a floodlight church steeple, but like you, only having had the K5 for a couple of weeks wasn't sure what it meant. I too would be most grateful for any insight because I couldnt find it in the manual either.

Woody
--

After 10 years of picture taking - you'd have thought I'd have learnt to remove the lens cap...

 

[Kurt Schilling]

Most likely cause : lens cap is on, so the sensor and light meter have no light ?
--
Kurt S.

 

[mike703]

Yes. I regularly discover that I have left the lens cap on when I switch the camera on and everything blinks at me...
--
Mike

 

[SungiBr]

Even in manual mode the camera will flash the settings on lcd or vf to show that a proper shot would not be able to occur if one of the following conditions aren't meet: enough light, shutter speed machting focal lenght to prevent camera shake.

Also, flash will blink to, if the light is to dimm to a proper exposure, even with a high ISO setting.

For me it's a no big deal, as i like the camera telling me it's "opinion", because this things is what makes me take the right decision on what to do on a scene.

Try to use the Green Button and see how the camera will behave, so you could start to get used to its way to show information. This will indicate what the camera is trying to "tell", because it will set exposure according to Program Line, and will indicate more accuratelly "what it want you to do".

 

[awaldram]

Dim room, lens was the 17-70 f/4, ISO set to 6400, which was enough for 1/10-1/20 depending on where I was aiming.

AF working range: -1 to 18 EV (at ISO 100, F1.4 lens)

F4 @ iso6400 1/10 = EV -1.5

So camera is smart and works properly

Don't forget the blinking stops if the flash is raised, so there must be come connection.

Duh?? with flash enabled a correct exposure solution is possible.

--
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[aplucini]

I've seen this same issue many times with my K-5 while doing my real estate photography and even when there is plenty of light and while using my external flash.

I've never been able to identify any rhyme or reason for it. It's intermittent. I'm in one house shooting photos and it it happens. The next day I'm in another house with similar lighting situation and I don't see the flashing values.

All I know is that I've never really worried about because even when the values are flashing I still get perfectly fine exposures. Go figure!

I don't remember ever seeing this issue with any other Pentax DSLR I've used in the past.

--
Allan in Colorado, USA

 

[DPNick]

I've only done that on rangefinders...

Read my post again and you'll see that the lens cap scenario is impossible with what I describe.

 

[DPNick]

Dim room, lens was the 17-70 f/4, ISO set to 6400, which was enough for 1/10-1/20 depending on where I was aiming.

AF working range: -1 to 18 EV (at ISO 100, F1.4 lens)

F4 @ iso6400 1/10 = EV -1.5

So camera is smart and works properly

I would rather say that apparently the camera is operating within specification. Whether it is "smart and proper" to have an annoying blinking of ALL the important information in the viewfinder such that if I cannot solve this problem the camera gets returned is an argument better left for the Pentax engineers to have amongst themselves.

Don't forget the blinking stops if the flash is raised, so there must be come connection.

Duh?? with flash enabled a correct exposure solution is possible.

I did figure that out, in fact one of my "solutions" was to leave the flash up but block its output. Won't work though. In Auto modes it adjusts (say) shutter speed in anticipation of that flash, and the resulting exposure would be wrong.

Sometimes "smart" is too clever by half.

--
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[awaldram]

I've only done that on rangefinders...

Read my post again and you'll see that the lens cap scenario is impossible with what I describe.

The result is the same .

All Pentax cameras blink their indicator if an exposure solution isn;t viable, They will then expose at the last (lowest) valid setting.

In your case the light level is below EV-1 so the camera stops metering at its lowest solution 6400 F4 @ 1/10 (approx ev-1.5) and warns you its the end of the line.

When you raise the flash there is now a valid solution within specified range because the flash will expose the image correctly so the flashing stops.

The person above with his sporadic blinks is having the same issue , The exposure solution he has arrived at for whatever reason is invalid so the camera warns of this by flashing.

Whether taking the shot result's in acceptable results is irrelevant the camera did not reach a solution that matched its readings.

--
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[awaldram]

Dim room, lens was the 17-70 f/4, ISO set to 6400, which was enough for 1/10-1/20 depending on where I was aiming.

AF working range: -1 to 18 EV (at ISO 100, F1.4 lens)

F4 @ iso6400 1/10 = EV -1.5

So camera is smart and works properly

I would rather say that apparently the camera is operating within specification. Whether it is "smart and proper" to have an annoying blinking of ALL the important information in the viewfinder

The information is not important its rubbish thats why its flashing.??

such that if I cannot solve this problem the camera gets returned is an argument better left for the Pentax engineers to have amongst themselves.

The point is YOU can solve the problem , the camera can't its saying over to you.

Your going to return the camera because its operating within the parameter advertised ??, Well that's a new one on me.

I think they had this discussion years ago and decided to stop and warn was better than continue blindly knowing the exposure is incorrect . If you prefer the other way (carry on metering even though the result will be inconsistent) then both Canon and Nikon take this approach.

It has to blink ALL because in this case all exposure variables could be altered to arrive at a solution.

I.e you use experience/fancy low EV light meter to get a correct exposure solution and adjust AV/SV or ISO to fix in Manual.

i.e AV/SV and iso are off the scale.

if you were in AV mode and your shutter/iso combination couldn't arrive at the correct exposure then only the AV line and the sv value would flash indicating where you as the photographer needs to make a decision.

Breaking it down

the line under AV flashes to show this is the setting you can alter (in this mode) to fix the 'solution' but the SV value flashes to show that its the shutter value causing the issue.

I think its very intuitive and provides a very clear indication of the appropriate action to achieve a consistent exposure.

Don't forget the blinking stops if the flash is raised, so there must be come connection.

Duh?? with flash enabled a correct exposure solution is possible.

I did figure that out, in fact one of my "solutions" was to leave the flash up but block its output. Won't work though. In Auto modes it adjusts (say) shutter speed in anticipation of that flash, and the resulting exposure would be wrong.

You've totally lost me, The flashing stops because with the addition of light an exposure can be made yet you think blocking that light will work ???

Sometimes "smart" is too clever by half.

If the light is below the metering capabilities of the camera then what would you do as a designer.?

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--
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[Russell Evans]

I then did a search through the pdf manual for blink, and it seems to be normal behaviour for the flash warning to blink when the camera senses its need, and normal for either the aperture, shutter speed, or ISO to blink when the limit is reached in those respective modes, but there's nothing I found in the manual about all of them blinking at once, hence my thought that something was wrong.

The values also blink when NR is going to be applied to the image. You can turn off High ISO NR and Slow Shutter Speed NR in tab 3 of the shooting menu to see it that will help. The settings do blink in the viewfinder at a certain point no matter what though. The flash always seems to always blink in low light, sorry.

Thank you
Russell

 

[GordonBGood]

In your case the light level is below EV-1 so the camera stops metering at its lowest solution 6400 F4 @ 1/10 (approx ev-1.5) and warns you its the end of the line.

The Exposure Metering range specification for the K-5 is EV\LV 0 to 20 not -1 up using a f/1.4 lens (English manual page 358 under Metering). For a f/4 setting which is three stops darker, the metering limit will be about EV/LV 3 up.

The EV/LV calculation for f/4 with 1/10 second at ISO 6400 is about 1.3 and for 1/20 second with the same other settings would be 2.3.

As both EV/LV values are lower than the exposure metering capability with that lens, the meter will blink and the camera will function as described.

Regards, GordonBGood

 

[awaldram]

Your right of cause

I quoted the AF tolerance not metering and somehow mucked up the sign.
Quite pleased I did get 1.x

In my defence I was tired and did the calculation in my head .

For anyone interested in my way of working this out.

EV = log2 (aperture squared/ shutter)
log10(2) = 3.322

so EV = log(aperture squared x reciprocal of shutter) x 3.322 @iso100

f4 @ 1/10 gives us log(4*4*10) x 3.322 = 7.322

iso 100 to iso 6400 is 6 step 100,200,400,800,1600,3200,6400

so 7.322-6 = the ev the OP was shooting in = 1.3

In your case the light level is below EV-1 so the camera stops metering at its lowest solution 6400 F4 @ 1/10 (approx ev-1.5) and warns you its the end of the line.

The Exposure Metering range specification for the K-5 is EV\LV 0 to 20 not -1 up using a f/1.4 lens (English manual page 358 under Metering). For a f/4 setting which is three stops darker, the metering limit will be about EV/LV 3 up.

The EV/LV calculation for f/4 with 1/10 second at ISO 6400 is about 1.3 and for 1/20 second with the same other settings would be 2.3.

As both EV/LV values are lower than the exposure metering capability with that lens, the meter will blink and the camera will function as described.

Regards, GordonBGood

--
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[DPNick]

People like you are the reason I never post here: I'm asking for a solution and you have no help to offer, just some uninteresting personal agenda.

I'm not interested in discussing this with you, because you seem to want to prove that I am somehow stupid because I cannot tolerate the camera's annoying behaviour, as opposed to helping me with a solution. I am not in any way shape or form stupid, it is Pentax who is stupid for designing an interface like this.

There are MANY other ways of conveying the same information that doesn't scream "annoying" or "there's a massive problem with the camera".

For example, the two best I can think of:
1. A small auxiliary indicator that the meter is out of range
2. Changing the color of the out-of-range values from green to red

And that is assuming that this information is even necessary. The camera is aimed at people who know what they are doing, and is being touted as a low-light specialist, so the blinking idiot lights seem even more out of place.

 

[DPNick]

In your case the light level is below EV-1 so the camera stops metering at its lowest solution 6400 F4 @ 1/10 (approx ev-1.5) and warns you its the end of the line.

The Exposure Metering range specification for the K-5 is EV\LV 0 to 20 not -1 up using a f/1.4 lens (English manual page 358 under Metering). For a f/4 setting which is three stops darker, the metering limit will be about EV/LV 3 up.

The EV/LV calculation for f/4 with 1/10 second at ISO 6400 is about 1.3 and for 1/20 second with the same other settings would be 2.3.

As both EV/LV values are lower than the exposure metering capability with that lens, the meter will blink and the camera will function as described.

Regards, GordonBGood

I think there's still a meter limit regardless of ISO setting; if I change the ISO to 51200, 3 stops, the values still blink. But if I raise the flash it all stops blinking.

Ok, new experiment. I tried two things: removing the lens in my same dim room, thus letting in as much light as possible. It metered fine, no blinking, which suggests that yes the blinking is connected to the amount of light the meter is receiving, no surprise there.

But the surprise is this: if I put the lens cap on, obviously it blinks because there isn't enough light. If I then raise the flash, the values stop blinking because presumably the camera is assuming that the flash will somehow illuminate the scene through the lens cap... Pretty smart camera eh awaldram?

This suggests the camera is not all that bright. It's not taking ISO into account for the warning, and it blindly assumes the flash a panacea.

I now believe its logic to be this: If the meter is not within EV range, blink all values as a warning regardless of ISO. If the flash is raised, then cancel all warnings because apparently the flash can permeate a lens cap and illuminate a dungeon.

This is what I mean by finding a solution. Identify the problem, determine its causes, and seek to remedy or circumvent the causes. I already thought about forcing the flash release lever open, but the cancellation of blinking is tied to the flash being in an upright position (tested at various raised positions). OK, so leave it up but duct tape over the bulb. That's awkward for when you actually need the flash, wastes battery, and might cause shot hesitstion if the camera insists on waiting for a recharge before next shutter release, but might be the only solution.

The solution seems to be boiling down to this: how do I fool this brilliant camera into thinking the flash is up without the downsides of the flash actually being up and firing?

 

[DPNick]

I then did a search through the pdf manual for blink, and it seems to be normal behaviour for the flash warning to blink when the camera senses its need, and normal for either the aperture, shutter speed, or ISO to blink when the limit is reached in those respective modes, but there's nothing I found in the manual about all of them blinking at once, hence my thought that something was wrong.

The values also blink when NR is going to be applied to the image. You can turn off High ISO NR and Slow Shutter Speed NR in tab 3 of the shooting menu to see it that will help. The settings do blink in the viewfinder at a certain point no matter what though. The flash always seems to always blink in low light, sorry.

Thank you
Russell

I turned off everything, including shake reduction, but I'm becoming convinced that my current hypothesis is correct, see my other post.

 

[Russell Evans]

If I then raise the flash, the values stop blinking because presumably the camera is assuming that the flash will somehow illuminate the scene through the lens cap... Pretty smart camera eh awaldram?

I think the preflash of the P-TTL system is where the camera expects to set the metering. The camera can't know that the lens cap is on preventing this, or anything less for that matter. I don't think camera with any preflash-TTL, Canon, Nikon, Sony, Pentax, ... could work any other way.

Thank you
Russell