D700 matrix metering biased towards background?

[ColourBlind]

Sometimes there are "features" that only occur in odd circumstances that you will not find out about until it happens.

I've been a working phot for many years, so do have an understanding of how to meter thanks.

I usually shoot manual, but occasionally if things are fast paced and the lighting changeable, then I will let the camera do some of the thinking.

Matrix is put forward as a very intelligent and advanced metering system and while it copes very well with most average circumstances, it surprised me that it can so easily be fooled by a tiny random highlight away in the corner of the shot.

Strangely when I tested the 5D from the same position, I get no problems, but D300, D700, D3 I do.

 

[Robin Casady]

I have done some reading on uniwb and I still don't quite understand it. It also seems to me very complicated to set up?

Why is this different than shooting a grey card or white card and setting wb from that? Then you ettr and set wb in post?

Always looking to learn something...

Bill,

Took me awhile to figure it out as well. It is all about using the Red, Green, and Blue histograms on the back of the camera for exposure evaluation. Nikon DSLRs base the histogram on the JPEG created in camera, even if you are shooting RAW only. You don't really see accurate histograms for the RAW info.

As a result, it is easy to blow the highlight data for the green channel. I wont go into the long discussion on why.

When shooting RAW, WB is only a number that gets recorded for later use in processing software. It doesn't alter the RAW image data. So, you can shoot at whatever WB setting you want, and set the correct WB when the images is processed on computer.

UniWB sets the WB so that JPEG created in camera (for LCD review and histograms) comes close to what is in the RAW image data. When you use ETTR methods to determine exposure, you want an accurate representation of what the RAW data actually is. This is all that UniWB does for you.

The down-side is that the image on the LCD looks rather cyan. It can also look that way when you bring it into processing software, if it is set to use the in-camera WB. I set the default in Lightroom 3 to daylight or flash (depending on what kind of shooting I'm doing) and the images look normal when it builds the thumbnails.

UniWB is a technique useful to those who rely on the RGB histograms in camera. It has no other purpose.

Setting it up takes a little doing, but it isn't bad. Once set up, UniWB is stored in one of your custom WB settings. You can switch to it, or to something else, when desired. This is the file I used:

http://www.guillermoluijk.com/download/uniwbd700.nef

I can post specific instructions for a Mac, if that would help.
--
Robin Casady
http://www.robincasady.com/Photo/index.html

 

[WildSammy]

And here you can download the linear curve for picture control in d700:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/17057675/PICCON01.NCP

It's needed when used with the UniWB to get exact histograms what sensor sees You need to import it via Manage picture control as it is
--
S.

 

[Bill Wallace]

--
Bill Wallace

http://bwallace.zenfolio.com/

"I'd rather laugh with the Sinners than cry with the Saints"

 

[WildSammy]

You will need copy that file containing linear curve to

Nikon/CustomPC folder on your CF card. When you don't have such folders there simply create them. After that you will be able to import curve via Manage Picture Control and Load/Save option. Does not modify that curve any any way(for example sharpening/saturation/contrast and so on) to keep showing histogram as sensor sees the light.

Use this curve with UniWB setting. To load file containing UniWB, simply create DCIM/100ND700 folder on your card if you doesn't have one. Download that mentioned NEF file from Robin, copy it to folder 100ND700 on CF card and rename to DSC_0001.NEF

After this set go to shooting menu, whitebalance, go on PRE, select position b-1 and via menu load the DSC_0001.NEF file containing UniWB setting. You can also set comment and you will know at future that b-1 position will contain UniWB. Then simply set this preset without any WB finetuning and enjoy your UniWB.

To get histograms right you have to set also colorspace to AdobeRGB.

Now you're ready to use proper ETTR technique Simply shoot some scene, look on RGB histograms a set exposure compensation so that you will have histogram as right as you can without blowing any channel. Now is your camera showing exact data's as sensor captures it. Colors will not look right, but after loading RAW into converter simply set WB to have colors OK and then turn down exposure to get rid of any overexposed highlights

The point is when you use this technique you will reduce noise and you will never overexpose a image or particular channel. Yes, when you set WB in RAW editor, some portions of image will clip, but after turning down exposure every clipping will disappear without need to use highlight recovery for it and you will have good exposed photo.

Just check the RGB histograms when shooting with UniWB and try to expose to the right

We can say we are doing film tricks on digital ;-)
--
S.

 

[Hawaii-geek]

Love Matrix metering on the D700

imho, once you get used to the way Nikon Matrix works , it is easy to comp to it.

Particulary if you are in the habit of getting the AF point over your subject (no AF and recompose)

In general a + .7 comp will get you there on a bright day , more if you have heavy backlight.

Because I am also a heavy CLS Off camera shooter ... Nikons Matrix metering the background , and a TTL CLS flash on the subject works like magic . imho

I use Matrix metering most of the time, with comps.

If not , and I am forced out of Matrix (like at night) ... it's manual all the way.

Even when shooting sports ... when most of the "old school" guys are shooting center weighted ... I have been shooting Nikon Matrix ... I am "just" used to it.

In fact, my last JPG shoot (which I don't do very often, unless it is a requirement, for a after shoot turn around) ... the Honolulu Marathon, I shot it ALL Matrix metering.

From the Dark first runners when I had to pop a flash ... to Sunrise, to noon over head sun.

and when I look back at my shots ( on this day anyway) ... most of the shots was 0 EV comp. (when the sun came out)
But, I will say this ... that is not the norm ...
norm is +.7 ... or some kind of + EV.
and a neg comp. before the sun is up. even with a CLS flash.

hmmmm, I still have a lot of boring Sport event shots on my site up (normally I take them down by now)
anyway ... here is a link .. note the Sunrise shots , ALL at 0 EV matrix
(Oh, I did use a white 2 story home as a fill)
http://www.rdhphoto.net/Sports/2010-Honolulu-
Marathon/15071734_r6whM#1126228090_NmTbX

Hope this helps,
HG

--
http://tourist-of-light.blogspot.com/

Please feel free to criticize, make suggestions, and edit any of my photos & re-post, to help show me 'the way'. * I am trying to Elevate the Level of my 'Snap Shots'

 

[rondhamalam]

It is not the camera.
All camera matrix, evaluative, you name it, will do the same.

Try spot metering, and you will see the face (where the spot is) is always light in normal exposure.

The OP explicitly says that the Pentax matrix metering does things differently, and your response is that all matrix metering would do the same thing.

Lol you are right. I didn't know that Pentax matrix is different.
My sight was based on Canon, Nikon, Fuji and Sony.

I am coming from Pentax too and expect an adjustment to how the metering is going to work.

But Pentax matrix metering doesn't take a "never blow highlights" approach, and I wouldn't expect any matrix metering to do that either - especially on a camera that is very good at recovering highlight detail.

That Pentax matrix sounds like Cetre Weighted on my canon, it's not a spot metering.

But I need to mention the K5 dynamic range and post-processing-ability is strongly tempting for me. With weather-proof on the icing.

At least until I use and prove it myself, while DPR has never been wrong with numbers.

 

[WildSammy]

Thanks for posting. You have some very good shots there I'm still learning how to cope with matrix meter on my D700 so your post will help me a lot
--
S.

 

[Bill Wallace]

HG...

What metering mode did you use on your Olympus gear? I just got a D700 this week and love it. If I understand you correctly you're shooting w/positive ec when using matrix in the sun? And negative when it gets darker? I usually shoot center-weighted or spot. I am going on a trip next week to the west so trying to get my arms around this. I will bring both sets of gear since I am most familiar w/ Oly. I shoot a D200 also but this is a different camera....

Great shots of the marathon...rough work but I guess someone's got to do it. Impressed how much your photography in general and your business have grown.

Bill

--
Bill Wallace

http://bwallace.zenfolio.com/

"I'd rather laugh with the Sinners than cry with the Saints"

 

[jazzystir]

Good topic. I was actually just about to post a similar question when I came across this. I've noticed the same thing with the matrix metering on the D700 and it does seem to preserve highlights at all costs. For example, I was in a night market, and there were a few exposed light bulbs in the background and in all the shots the bulbs came out fine but everything else was WAY too dark. I'm used to the D200 matrix metering when everything came out picture perfect.

Will try the center weight metering to see if that helps because the matrix metering on the D700 drives me nuts.

 

[cluna]

Over a long time I have learned NOT to trust Matrix, as, like the OP noted, sometimes all it takes is a small highlight in the background to make it throw a wobbly.

Matrix is fine, even better if Adl is on auto. That said, I tend to use spot while anticipating the result, ae-l it , compose and shoot

-c

 

[Bill Wallace]

Read what Ross (Hawaii Geek) said about using exposure compensation farther up the thread. From what I gathered he uses negative when it's dark and plus when it's bright. About the only time I use plus is when I'm shooting snow or the such. I also use spot and center weighted most of the time. This seems to be an entirely different meter than I have ever used, which is alright, it's just getting my head around it...

B

--
Bill Wallace

http://bwallace.zenfolio.com/

"I'd rather laugh with the Sinners than cry with the Saints"

 

[jazzystir]

Thanks for pointiing me to that. Yes, it is completely different. I'm used to the D200 which took near-perfectly exposed pictures regardless of what the scene was. For the price I paid for the D700 I would've expected the same without having to thinking about adjusting things this way or that way. My friend's point and shoot camera takes better exposures in auto-mode than my D700. Even when I shoot in manual mode (which is half the time), the meter is off in matrix mode.

 

[WildSammy]

Mine is going pretty cold so I've found +0.3 or +0.7EV should do it I need to test it on more scenarios and if that will suit me I will set it in exposure fine tune Just try to dial + compensation if you're getting underexposed shots as I'm having or dial - compensation if you're getting overexposed shots. + / - 0.3 to 0.7EV should to it for the most cases I think I need to test it
--
S.

 

[Hawaii-geek]

Aloha Bill,

lol, you will be "amazed" at how many OLY guys are here, posting and "not" ... but here. ... with D700

I did use OLY Matrix a lot too ... that is part of the reason why I am used to it.

But, back then ... I have to admit ... I did use Center weighted and spot , much more than I do now.

example: I did use spot for concerts. and center weighted for the little sports I did shoot back then.

• Now, it's Matrix, or strait to manual.

But, keep in mind I shoot RAW ... and the D700 has amazing DR if you ETTR (Expose To The Right).
imho, that was the "First" change I noticed changing to Nikon in RAW. (DR)

Then, after getting over the initial "fear and loathing" ... I gradually started shooting at higher and higher ISOs.

Where now I think nothing of fliping to iso1600 on a paid shoot. (would never even "dream" of that before)

Thank you for your kind comments ...

Between you and me ... being "forced" to shoot JPG (both at some quicky weddings and high volume sports events) has improved my photograhy (technical).
I was a JPG detracter (only shoot RAW was my mantra).
but, shooting some pressure events in JPG "has" made me better.

p.s. the Nikon D700 and CLS flash has also ... no question.

imho, I would NOT be shooting as much "action" sports as I am doing now ... if it was not for the great Nikon CAF. and I mean GREAT !
I am talking, stand next to a Canon shooter with confidence Great.
and knowing your Hit rate will be measured, after the shoot.

in fact I am shooting at the Finish line of a big running event this Monday.

On Nikon matrix ...

please note I put on a plus EV during the day ONLY when people are in the shot as the near subject. I do shoot mostly people.
and yes, when the light drops a negative EV.

but, if you are not shooting a person as your main near subject ... shoot with Auto WB and Matrix ... and I think you will be surprised at the results , most of the time.
I always use that as a "starting point" ... and I comp from there.
Nothing is perfect. But, when you get used to it. and get confident with it.

You can nail it most of the time (with comp) , and get the correction within two shots.
and for me, that's pretty good.

When there is normal light , and you got a near person as the subject ... you will be surprised that a + .7 comp in matrix gives you a pretty good ETTR shot in RAW.
Please note, in general I like to push 1/3 of a stop over , in the RAW shot.

and pull it back in LR recovery ... automatically on import ... so, it is a "automatic" correction. and does not add any time to my workflow.

p.s. the marathon was easier than I thought ... because I only had to shoot at one locaion. The Kona Ironman ... that was like 3 marathons, at different locations ... and it started before sunrise (like most do) ... but ended at midnight.
When I shot the last marathon, I was thinking to myself, this is "cake" LOL.

Thank you,

Hope this helps ... I know how it feels with a new D700, it will all be worth it.
HG

HG...

What metering mode did you use on your Olympus gear? I just got a D700 this week and love it. If I understand you correctly you're shooting w/positive ec when using matrix in the sun? And negative when it gets darker? I usually shoot center-weighted or spot. I am going on a trip next week to the west so trying to get my arms around this. I will bring both sets of gear since I am most familiar w/ Oly. I shoot a D200 also but this is a different camera....

Great shots of the marathon...rough work but I guess someone's got to do it. Impressed how much your photography in general and your business have grown.

Bill

--
Bill Wallace

http://bwallace.zenfolio.com/

"I'd rather laugh with the Sinners than cry with the Saints"

--
http://tourist-of-light.blogspot.com/

Please feel free to criticize, make suggestions, and edit any of my photos & re-post, to help show me 'the way'. * I am trying to Elevate the Level of my 'Snap Shots'

 

[Hawaii-geek]

WildSammy,
Thank you,
Hope this helps ... many "here" helped me when I was new to the D700.

• Oh, don't forget one of the best advice I was given here.

Turn DOWN your brightness to match your computer Monitor output.

So, you can use it to help judge your shots ... Not perfect , but it helps with the comp. in Matrix. and shooting RAW.

I use -2 ... but, you have to see what works for you.

At first ... Matrix "might" feel unreliable ... but, in time ... the Matrix and you will be "one"

HG

Thanks for posting. You have some very good shots there I'm still learning how to cope with matrix meter on my D700 so your post will help me a lot
--
S.

--
http://tourist-of-light.blogspot.com/

Please feel free to criticize, make suggestions, and edit any of my photos & re-post, to help show me 'the way'. * I am trying to Elevate the Level of my 'Snap Shots'

 

[TheRidgeback]

Nikons matrix system's uses scene recognition, to assist in its metering modes,
this is used when you use P, A, S.

I believe this is also used when in Centre and Spot.

When you focus on the scene, it will search its database for a similar one and adjust the exposure thus

http://imaging.nikon.com/products/imaging/technology/scene/19/index.htm

If you want to turn this off, use M, as this is no longer uses the scene database, and is a true matrix metering, Centre, Spot. metering.

Mac