Olympus Customer Service - E-PL2 red dots

Yes, it is interesting to see the differences between cameras with the same sensor. E-PL2 is showing both white dots and red dots (white dots are worse on the E-PL2). This makes me wonder if the red dots are caused by something distinct from what causes the white dots or if both white and red dots are due to the problem being worse on the E-PL2 (seems more likely to me).
 
Aperture did not change it on the kit or OM prime.

I was not able to reproduce it with a Nikon 70-300. With that lens the rear element is much further away from the sensor. I am using a low power red laser. Extreme testing in my opinion to produce the results.

--
Charles
My family images are at http://www.stakeman.smugmug.com
Be sure of your subject.
Never, force the shot.
 
Yes, it is interesting to see the differences between cameras with the same sensor. E-PL2 is showing both white dots and red dots (white dots are worse on the E-PL2). This makes me wonder if the red dots are caused by something distinct from what causes the white dots or if both white and red dots are due to the problem being worse on the E-PL2 (seems more likely to me).
I think we have to be a little cautious about saying "same sensor". While literally the same sensor may be in use, a lot of other things can be different - different AA filter, different IR filter, etc.

My guess right now is actually that the IR filter is different. Either a different composition or different placement. The fact that the dots are reddish in color seems to point in this direction.

--
Sam Bennett - http://www.swiftbennett.com
 
I got the Epl2 a little over a week ago. I have noticed any red dots, but in reading this thread, shooting against a clean white board, am noticing what looks like dust spots in playback mode of the image and also in the shooting mode with the EVF. I tried a couple of different lenses and the spots are still there and in the same place. Tried an EPL1 body with the same lenses against the same white board. No spots.

The spots look like what would appear to be dust spots in a blow up on a screen. I have not tried cleaning the sensor because none of my sensors have never needed cleaning on an Olympus micro four thirds body.
It appears that it needs it now, regardless of history. Whether you want to tackle it is up to you - but the longer dust motes are stuck, the harder they are to remove (relatively speaking). I've had a PEN for 13 months, and while I've never looked for dust and dust isn't showing on images, from experience I'm sure there are stuck motes. Thanks for raising this, as it's about time I did a quick maintenance pass.

--
...Bob, NYC

'Well, sometimes the magic works. . . Sometimes, it doesn't.' - Little Big Man

http://www.bobtullis.com
 
Well, maybe a little off topic, but I shot these between running errands....

As you can see, there are red dots, but no "grid" or pattern of any kind. I am glad now I cancelled my preorder of both ZX-1 and EPL2...







 
You said it. Extreme. So extreme in fact rendering the test meaningless.

A real life test is sunset shot. (sun not covered by clounds. Mr. Tuck!)

And night time street light shots. ( Not early evening shots with a bright sky. Mr. Tuck)

CWilt wrote:

. I am using a low power red laser. Extreme testing in my opinion to produce the results.
 
...

I was not able to reproduce it with a Nikon 70-300. With that lens the rear element is much further away from the sensor.
...
Well, if the problem is the distance between rear element and the sensor, the red dots should be present in all m4/3. Or not?
 
...

I was not able to reproduce it with a Nikon 70-300. With that lens the rear element is much further away from the sensor.
...
Well, if the problem is the distance between rear element and the sensor, the red dots should be present in all m4/3. Or not?
there are several things between sensor surface and rear element...

--

 
...

I was not able to reproduce it with a Nikon 70-300. With that lens the rear element is much further away from the sensor.
...
Well, if the problem is the distance between rear element and the sensor, the red dots should be present in all m4/3. Or not?
there are several things between sensor surface and rear element...
Right, and whether a particular photo causes the problem would likely be influenced by the angle of incidence of the light to the sensor - so telephoto lenses may be inherently less prone to the problem than wide-angle lenses.

--
Sam Bennett - http://www.swiftbennett.com
 
Now probably a stupid question:

Which colors are the EPL2 with red dots?

Is possible that the outside color was used internally too? In this case the silver EPL2 can have a "reflective" surface where lights can reflect themself.
 
Now probably a stupid question:

Which colors are the EPL2 with red dots?

Is possible that the outside color was used internally too? In this case the silver EPL2 can have a "reflective" surface where lights can reflect themself.
--

 
I just returned, have a minute or few. . . Indeed I could reproduce it in two or three extreme conditions, when I tried, using only a Nokton 35/1.4. It was worse at smaller apertures, just like enhancing the evidence of dust on the sensor works (so it points to the sensor assembly layers as the source, afaic). I want to ask Olympus why on the EPL2, and not the EP2, and how they plan to resolve this.

After dark I was shooting wide open, so only the usual ghosting of bright lights was noticed. I have no faith in using this for night studies on the tripod, when wanting to stop down. Because it's not my only µ4/3, I'll keep it, as otherwise I like it a lot (not telling Olympus that, however).

Haven't gotten the images transferred yet. I'll have something to show after dinner.

--
...Bob, NYC

'Well, sometimes the magic works. . . Sometimes, it doesn't.' - Little Big Man

http://www.bobtullis.com
 
I spoke to my friend Iliah Borg about this and this is what he said...

The issue should be the curvature of the rear element.
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1026&message=6422541

New IR filter: In something of a departure, the SLR/n uses a dye-based IR

filter, rather than the dichroic type used by the 14n and most other digital cameras. The dye-based approach sacrifices about a half-stop in light sensitivity, but reduces optical artifacts caused by internal reflection with the dichroic filter. (The problem being most apparent with lenses with elements that projected back into the camera body. The 60mm Micro-Nikkor was apparently particularly prone to producing a bright glint in the center of the frame when stopped down, the result of internal reflections in the near-IR range of wavelengths.) The long pass-band (e.g., visible light) "tail" of the dye-based filter's spectral response also apparently helps offset the higher red-sensitivity of the sensor itself, producing more balanced output levels between the red, green, and blue sensors. In the raw silicon, there's about a two-stop difference in sensitivity between the red and blue channels. When you combine this with the heavy color cast of incandescent light sources, the total variation in response can reach four or even five f-stops. You'd thus expect the dye-based IR filter to be particularly helpful when shooting under incandescent light sources, and the SLR/n does indeed appear to do a better than average job with such lighting.

As far as I see it, the closer is the rear element the less light fall-of

between reflections, and the more pronounced is the effect. the more curved is the rear element the more light goes off-sensor and the less pronounced effect follows.
--
Charles
My family images are at http://www.stakeman.smugmug.com
Be sure of your subject.
Never, force the shot.
 
I spoke to my friend Iliah Borg about this and this is what he said...

The issue should be the curvature of the rear element.
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1026&message=6422541

New IR filter: In something of a departure, the SLR/n uses a dye-based IR

filter, rather than the dichroic type used by the 14n and most other digital cameras. The dye-based approach sacrifices about a half-stop in light sensitivity, but reduces optical artifacts caused by internal reflection with the dichroic filter. (The problem being most apparent with lenses with elements that projected back into the camera body. The 60mm Micro-Nikkor was apparently particularly prone to producing a bright glint in the center of the frame when stopped down, the result of internal reflections in the near-IR range of wavelengths.) The long pass-band (e.g., visible light) "tail" of the dye-based filter's spectral response also apparently helps offset the higher red-sensitivity of the sensor itself, producing more balanced output levels between the red, green, and blue sensors. In the raw silicon, there's about a two-stop difference in sensitivity between the red and blue channels. When you combine this with the heavy color cast of incandescent light sources, the total variation in response can reach four or even five f-stops. You'd thus expect the dye-based IR filter to be particularly helpful when shooting under incandescent light sources, and the SLR/n does indeed appear to do a better than average job with such lighting.

As far as I see it, the closer is the rear element the less light fall-of

between reflections, and the more pronounced is the effect. the more curved is the rear element the more light goes off-sensor and the less pronounced effect follows.
--
here is a cut of Sigma DP1 which has the same effect in a working state,showing where rear element is (and it has a bigger sensor)



--

 
I just returned, have a minute or few. . . Indeed I could reproduce it in two or three extreme conditions, when I tried, using only a Nokton 35/1.4. It was worse at smaller apertures, just like enhancing the evidence of dust on the sensor works (so it points to the sensor assembly layers as the source, afaic). I want to ask Olympus why on the EPL2, and not the EP2, and how they plan to resolve this.
I believe you've hit on something here regarding the example of how dust works on the sensor. You have some good information to provide Olympus with. I'm looking forward to hearing what their response is. I hope you are able to contact someone who knows what you are talking about. And I hope they are honest with you and have some kind of answer as to what their plan is. Surely by now they have done enough research themselves to provide an intelligent response.
After dark I was shooting wide open, so only the usual ghosting of bright lights was noticed. I have no faith in using this for night studies on the tripod, when wanting to stop down. Because it's not my only µ4/3, I'll keep it, as otherwise I like it a lot (not telling Olympus that, however).
I like the E-PL2 a lot too and am 99% sure I will keep it. Actually, I exchanged my original one so I could have more time to try the camera out so I could make a rational decision. Also, I was sort of hoping the new copy will not be so easy to obtain the red spots. We'll see.
Haven't gotten the images transferred yet. I'll have something to show after dinner.
I really appreciate what you're doing here - from beginning to end - including how you've researched the forum and gleaned so much info ahead of time. Kudos to you!

Maria
 
I just want to say that you - and so many photographers here are amazing with the information you're coming up with - and the research you are all doing - along with the time you are taking to do it.

I hope big brother "OLYMPUS" is watching! They should be paying many of the people of this forum for all the work you're doing!

I for one want to say a huge "THANK YOU."

Maria
 
Is possible that the outside color was used internally too?
I saw lenses w/ metal aperture blades not being blacken... but that is because the manufacturer did NOT do something to save on cost... to suggest that something like this was done intentionally to make the surface even more reflective is not logical

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Well, I'm usually a 'let the tech-heads take it apart first' sort of buyer. Seems some old info and various speculations and observations are starting to come together. Charles dug up some great stuff down further.

I rather excessive and not very disciplined walk through of what I encountered when I was looking for the 'feature' this afternoon, it was easiest to put it here:

http://www.bobtullis.com/Main/Staging/EPL2-DotGrid

Dang - I recall when shooting in Central Park in this season there might be 3 other photographers noticed the whole day (less than 10 years ago). Now I can't seem to look in any direction, in any part of the park, and NOT see someone photographing (not just with pocket cameras). But that's another story [g].

--
...Bob, NYC

'Well, sometimes the magic works. . . Sometimes, it doesn't.' - Little Big Man

http://www.bobtullis.com
 
As far as I see it, the closer is the rear element the less light fall-of

between reflections, and the more pronounced is the effect. the more curved is the rear element the more light goes off-sensor and the less pronounced effect follows.
I have sony R1 with APC sensor. Lense in that camera sits just 1mm to 2mm away from it.

5 years and never observed that problem. (But then coatings from oly are not T* of Zeiss)

--
::> I make spelling mistakes. May Dog forgive me for this.
 

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