Nikon's Edsel, The D100

[Geir Atle Ward]

I really just assumed the D100 would be no worse than the D60 and I
had Nikon Glass. From a pic qual standpoint only - the D100 falls
short of the expectation. Buyers remorse seems logical when the
review shows I didn't purchase the best gear $2000 would buy me.
HLAB

well since you had Nikon lenses, your only other option is S2, and there aren't many reveiws of that camera yet. For 2k the D60 is not an option for you.
Geir Atle

 

[HAROLD LABELLE]

This is all starting to look like life imitating The Matrix. A
world where reality's a b!tch so we all live in denali.

C'mon guys, give it a rest. You have a "Highly recommended" camera
in the semi-affordable range that takes all your great Nikon glass,
so why look at the glass as half empty rather than half full. It's
not perfect, but what camera is.

Last few posts have made very valid points - I will take advise, stop whining and use energy to take pics - Instead of taking offense to attacks on my post I think most were healthy critisism and helpful.

Thanks All
HLAB

 

[alfred_schiele]

Hi

I guess the real hope would be for the Foveon sensor to succeed so
we could push the photographers talent to new limits.

I would like to see teh Foveon ASAP too, but it does not need utmost sharpness to do great photograps...

If all sharp images were great, then there should be a lot of good images but there aren't... (;

I have loyalty to quality - whatever company supplies it!

The question here is if you think the price is ok for the quality you get. I prefer the D60 image quality too but the D100 body... so what to do?

Regards, A. Schiele

 

[Kevin Forte]

Nikon's D100 AF is faster than the D60 and you call the D100 an Edsel! Now that's rich!!
KF

The data is in - the d100 is a great camera but it just does not
take high quality pics. Sure if you spend a zillion bucks for a
lens you can help to overcome the the inferior CCD-Filter combo,
but you can not take as good an image as the D60 under identical
conditions.
It is not a debate, it is a fact. Look at the pics in the review -
trust your own eyes, they tell the story. Draw your own conclusion.
I truly really love everything about my D100 except the fact that
it is incapable of taking pics in many cases that don't require
aggressive sharpening which is OK but noise becomes the byproduct
and I have a pic that does not equal the D60 quality. I have a pic
with a dreaded digital look.
Forget the level of expertise of the photographer which of course
has everything to do with taking great pics - the D100 cannot
perform as well as we all hoped - it cannot equal the D60 output
although there are many other great features.
What was Nikon thinking of - It is unbelievable to imagine such a
proud company would release a camera that takes substandard
pics(compare to D60). It will be interesting to see if the S2 also
beats the D100.
I guess the real hope would be for the Foveon sensor to succeed so
we could push the photographers talent to new limits.
I have loyalty to quality - whatever company supplies it!

 

[DavidM]

HLAB wrote:
\> Last few posts have made very valid points - I will take advise,

stop whining and use energy to take pics - Instead of taking
offense to attacks on my post I think most were healthy critisism
and helpful.

Thanks All
HLAB

HLAB,

My apologies if my original response was a bit heavy -- it was not intended as an attack so much as a plea for open-mindedness concerning all of the emotional "it's awful" "it's great" threads going on right now.

Although I had no investments in lenses or other manufacturer-specific items, I chose the D100 because of what I was beginning to feel was a fairly consistent tendency to over-saturate colors in some of the Canon pictures I've both taken (I own a Canon S40) and seen from D60 postings. Have I seen a general softness in my D100 compared to other cameras? Yes. Would those same images be substantially "better" with another camera? That depends on personal assessment, but I would say not substantially . I'm not as concerned with how my D100 pictures would look with another camera as I am with how I can improve my own technique, and specifically with figuring out how to take better pictures with the tools I have. The differences I've seen with other cameras are simply not great enough to generate that "I made a mistake" feeling.

Perhaps it's because photography is relatively new to me, but I'm discovering that the myriad of options available to me now is quite extensive, and I'm able to improve as I learn more about the equipment I've got. I'm actually looking forward to the time when I begin to feel limited by what I have, which would certainly mean that I've improved substantially. To be honest, I'm more concerned with my ability to compose than with any specific issues with my equipment right now.

David

 

[David SL]

The data is in - the d100 is a great camera but it just does not
take high quality pics. Sure if you spend a zillion bucks for a
lens you can help to overcome the the inferior CCD-Filter combo,
but you can not take as good an image as the D60 under identical
conditions.
It is not a debate, it is a fact. Look at the pics in the review -
trust your own eyes, they tell the story. Draw your own conclusion.
I truly really love everything about my D100 except the fact that
it is incapable of taking pics in many cases that don't require
aggressive sharpening which is OK but noise becomes the byproduct
and I have a pic that does not equal the D60 quality. I have a pic
with a dreaded digital look.
Forget the level of expertise of the photographer which of course
has everything to do with taking great pics - the D100 cannot
perform as well as we all hoped - it cannot equal the D60 output
although there are many other great features.
What was Nikon thinking of - It is unbelievable to imagine such a
proud company would release a camera that takes substandard
pics(compare to D60). It will be interesting to see if the S2 also
beats the D100.
I guess the real hope would be for the Foveon sensor to succeed so
we could push the photographers talent to new limits.
I have loyalty to quality - whatever company supplies it!

--

 

[Yamil R. Sued50621]

With all due respect to your abilities, a single camera "WILL NOT" limit your abilities!! Not at all!!

After 17+ years earning a living behind the camera, no one brand or model has ever limited my abilities!! EVER!!

I currently use a Sinar x 4x5 body, with a MegaVision T2 12MP 3 pass back, wich BTW this particular Megavision was manufactured in 1997 & it's looooong been replaced with the T32. I still make great images with this back, even though it's not the top of the line MegaVision.

On the D100??? I like it!! I do!! It does actually yields better images than some Single Pass pro Medium format backs out there.

I've been testing the D10 for 2 weeks now, I have the camera set at No Sharpening, & I shot Un Compressed NEF's. I do all my sharpening in Photoshop 7 with the Color Settings we use at work. I use MegaVision's MegaSharp Plug-In for sharpening & I do most all my Color Corrections with Curves.

Do you have the D100?? The reason I ask is that I've seen some folks in here making decisions without actually using the camera, & making their decisions on other proples experiences & on bad images on the net. I went the hard way, I got the camera & I tested & found the right set of settings that yield great sellable images. I don't really care what Bells & Whistles a camera has, unless I can make Images I can sell.

On the sharpening issue, i've said this before & I repeat myself, "IT ALL DEPENDS ON HOW LARGE OR SMALL YOUR IMAGE IS GOING TO BE PRINTED" You always sharpen depending on your final image size!! I know this because we have a huge Pre_Pres dpt at work that works daily with all these digital images that all 7 photographers (out studio is Huge too) create every day.

Go play with your d100(if you have one) & give it the chance it desrves.

Y

Honest no ulterior motive - In fact it wasn't the best analogy. I
just wish I had bought the camera that didn't limit my ability to
take best pics.

 

[Yamil R. Sued50621]

may i make a lens recommendation??

Try the 60/2.8 AFD, It's one of Nikn's sharpest lenses & its quite innexpensive

It has a 90mm view with the D100's 1.5X factor & it goes 1:1 Macro!! Just imagine the Posibilities Flowers, Bugs, Landscapes, & even some Portraits

Try it

Y

Last few posts have made very valid points - I will take advise,
stop whining and use energy to take pics - Instead of taking
offense to attacks on my post I think most were healthy critisism
and helpful.

Thanks All
HLAB

 

[Bimthecat]

Hello HLAB,
Your complaints about the D100 might be your lens....
The resulting image can only be as good as the lens.
(Assuming your camera work is good)
Not all lenses are good, not all Nikon lenses are good.
And get ready for something really shocking.....zooms (yes, all zooms) are
a major compromise.
Using a prime Nikon lens INSTEAD of a zoom is like getting
"another free 2 MEGAPIXEL's of CCD".
Although this is somewhat of a generalization bare with me....
The CCD can only record what is projected on it.

The near-perfect element centration of prime lenses, along with their SUPERIOR contrast, makes the results STRIKINGLY BETTER than
all/any zoom lens. By quite a bit.
The following Nikon primes are SHARP SHARP SHARP:
20mm D, 24mm D, 35mm D, 60MM D, 105mm D (among others)
.....Zooms will just break your heart !
F: 8 and be there.

 

[Gabriele Sartori]

and take some pictures. You have a nice camera, buddy. Learn how
to use it.

Why the only defense iis being arrogant? Who are you a genius of photography with photos in a museum?

I used reflex for almost 30 years I know hot to take pictures but if you don't see the difference D60 vs D100 in photo quality you must be visually impaired. While we (D100 owners that see the real limitation of this camera) "learn" on how to use it, please invest yor time in the local glasses shop!

Gabriele Sartori

 

[Robert Briggs]

Are your comments directed at me? Before I comment I'd like to know if your arrogant charge is aimed at me?

I can't imgine it was but I'd rather not read anything into your posting.

Bob

and take some pictures. You have a nice camera, buddy. Learn how
to use it.

Why the only defense iis being arrogant? Who are you a genius of
photography with photos in a museum?

I used reflex for almost 30 years I know hot to take pictures but
if you don't see the difference D60 vs D100 in photo quality you
must be visually impaired. While we (D100 owners that see the real
limitation of this camera) "learn" on how to use it, please invest
yor time in the local glasses shop!

Gabriele Sartori

 

[Gabriele Sartori]

Are your comments directed at me? Before I comment I'd like to
know if your arrogant charge is aimed at me?

Yes it was because any time a Nikon cheerleader find someone that says the truth about the D100, you have to accuse him/her of being incapable to use the camera.

Your comment wasn't direct to me but I'm fed up with you guys accusing all of us (the truth teller) of being morons about DSRL. I probably used SRL longer than you and this camera just doesn't have the same photographic quality of a D60, period!

I know I'm arrogant myself with these posts but when I see people treating us like ignorant simply because we say it as it is I get really upset.

Gabriele Sartori

 

[Dennis D]

Gabriele Sartori wrote:
I used reflex for almost 30 years I know hot to take pictures but
if you don't see the difference D60 vs D100 in photo quality you
must be visually impaired.

Funny, Steve's Digicams review didn't see any difference:
http://www.steves-digicams.com/2002_reviews/nikon_d100_pg6.html
read all the way down.

If you know how to use the camera, your images will look just as good as the D60. You may have used a camera for thirty years but they sure weren't digital, these cameras are a different animal than film, each one takes a little getting used to. One thing for sure is the D100's resolution is just as good as the D60's, I've compared prints between the two so I know this to be fact.

 

[Robert Briggs]

Gabriele, I'll take the high road and say I didn't find my comments were arrogant. (I'm a learning amateur whose hobby is photography) Maybe the whining charge was a bit over the top but my overall suggestions were to the original poster to go out and take some photos and learn how to use his newly purchased camera ... OR sell it and buy the D60 he seems so fond of.

Bob

Are your comments directed at me? Before I comment I'd like to
know if your arrogant charge is aimed at me?

Yes it was because any time a Nikon cheerleader find someone that
says the truth about the D100, you have to accuse him/her of being
incapable to use the camera.

Your comment wasn't direct to me but I'm fed up with you guys
accusing all of us (the truth teller) of being morons about DSRL. I
probably used SRL longer than you and this camera just doesn't have
the same photographic quality of a D60, period!

I know I'm arrogant myself with these posts but when I see people
treating us like ignorant simply because we say it as it is I get
really upset.

Gabriele Sartori

 

[bernard34930]

Oh boy. Sounds like a D60 troll to me. Go back to your own forum
and stop messing up ours.

Phil's pics look fine to me (as usual). When I compare his D60
pics to the D100 I see very little difference. The D100 is a
wonderful, affordable camera for people with Nikon lenses.

If you're incapable of creating nice photos with a D100 then I'd
suggest working on technique and composition. Its not the camera.
Its you.

HLAB, have you printed any of the D100 pics? Don't trust your
monitor to judge quality. I've made prints from my D100 and they
are as good or better than any prints I ever got with my film N70
and then scanned with a HP s20 film scanner. Both were printed on
a Epson 1270. That being the case the D100 is a complete success
for me.

First of all a significant point (that you know may be, but who is often ignored):

It is always necessary, to avoid increasing the noise with sharpening, to envisage 3 or 4 in threshold value.

In addition there are very effective possibilities with photoshop to attenuate the noise, without degrading the image. If you wish it, I can forward to you a very effective action photoshop.

Best regards

If you or anyone can share a way around this sharpen/noise dilema
then please do - so I can get all the other great features of the
D100 without compromising my pics.
HLAB

 

[alfred_schiele]

Hi

It is always necessary, to avoid increasing the noise with
sharpening, to envisage 3 or 4 in threshold value.

I tried threshold 5 and 6 too, still.... no big advantage as if there is even too much noise without having applied any PS USM...

I tried selective softener too, an expensive filter using lots of time, but the result looked somehow slightly tone-separated and degrades edges slightly too.

I tried softening the shadows as there is noise more visible but it needs aggressive values to get a good effect... and this degrades detail in a way too.

Please tell my more about sophisticated noise removal that can be automated.

I am very interested in learning more about such concepts!

Regards, A. Schiele

 

[johno61299]

Auto is a no-no? Another ****-up? What else is wrong with this camera. Even those who have bought it and love it can't stop finding fault with it.

The data is in - the d100 is a great camera but it just does not
take high quality pics.

I find it difficult to understand the different reactions to this
camera. Try this post for a quite opposite view:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1021&message=3100104

Checked up on thread - it is his opinion that is presented which of
course he is rightly entitiled to. However the objective results -
look at phil's pics are in and at least to my eyes it shows the
D100 takes inferior pics to D60.

Edsel? I really wonder whether some of this knocking copy isn't an
invention for whatever ulterior motive.

pi

Honest no ulterior motive - In fact it wasn't the best analogy. I
just wish I had bought the camera that didn't limit my ability to
take best pics. thnaks for you comments.

HLAB

--
John.

 

[alfred_schiele]

Hi

Boys cool down, you amused me (-:

In my eyes all is quite simple, The D100 is the better camera and the D60 has the better imager. (-; Now weight in for yourself...

Regards, A. Schiele