AF tracking is hard even with top kit

[mike_2008]

First of all this is not canon bashing. I own the FF 5D and canon lenses and think they rock. Sony are more innovative right now at the low end, but for lenses canon are hard to beat.

With that out of the way i wanted to highlight this thread:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1019&thread=36183228

Where a poster with 7d and 70-200 f/4 L IS (one of the finest lenses ever made) has a 1 in 5 success rate at shooting his dog as it runs towards him, with AI servo and central AF.

One of the replies is that maybe the dog is the wrong colour.

Now this is top notch kit, not the absolute top, but typical AA stuff. And it's hard. AF tracking needs a lot of experience as well as great kit and even then it may not work so well.

My point is this; let's view the A55 AF tracking (when we hear more about it) through the prism of realism, not through a fictitious ideal where every other camera performs perfect AF tracking at any fps...

 

[zackiedawg]

No question that tracking and panning involves more than the techno wizardry of the camera - there is definitely skill involved in doing it - knowing all the settings of the camera that need to be optimal or favorable for best results. Which focus mode to be using, how to pan with a moving subject and predict the movement and follow evenly, how to meter different color subjects and different amounts of light so that not only is the metering correct, but the focus system can best detect the movement, etc.

All the technical stuff will improve the hit rate for someone who learns what they're doing, but it won't really make an inexperienced person capable of landing a burst of 15 perfectly focused, exposed, and composed in-flight shots.

I actually learned how to pan and track and shoot in-flight shots with an EVF P&S superzoom with a 2fps burst mode that blacked out the viewfinder entirely. It's possible to do with nearly any camera - it just gets much easier and a much higher keeper rate with the fancy tracking focus and fast burst modes. Learning to shoot such subjects should be the first step, with whatever camera you've got. It may be that these new cameras can do marvelously well, or it could be that they aren't all that great for the job - but no question they'll be capable of taking such shots in the hands of someone who knows how. The question becomes whether working around the handicaps is effortless, or too much of a pain to want to use these cameras for tracking focus. That's yet to be determined, and up to the individual.

--
Justin
galleries: http://www.pbase.com/zackiedawg

 

[the_rascal]

7D has a lot of AF settings for several (typical ?) situation. They have to mabe accurately made to be successfully efficient in AF tracking...

 

[NeilJones]

Seriously, why talk about this here?

--
'More mega-pixels does not mean better photos!'

 

[tompower53]

When even the best Canikon models have trouble with autofocus at their highest frame rates.

User experience and skill to get the most out of the autofocus system whether 2 FPS or 10.
--
tom power

 

[007peter]

First of all this is not canon bashing. I own the FF 5D and canon lenses and think they rock. Sony are more innovative right now at the low end, but for lenses canon are hard to beat.

100% agreement here. Canon lens are not only cheaper, but many of them have the ultra-fast and silent USM that is great for video shooting. Here are my trophy winnings

• Canon 200mm f/2.8 USM L ( ebay ) won $540
• Canon 100mm f/2 USM ( ebay ) won $280
• Canon 85mm f/1.8 USM ( craigslist ) bought $260
• Canon 35mm f/1.8 USM ( craigslist ) bought $200
• Canon 50mm f/1.8 II (( craigslist ) bought $65

Trying to buy those similar sony minolta primes was nearly impossible 4 years ago, my failed bidding for a minolta 100mm f/2 went as high as $789, my failed bidding for 85mm f/1.4g went for $1385. Ouch!

Sony lens situation has improved since them....at least on the "DT" APS-C lens. Right now I can buy a new Sony DT50 f/1.8 ($150), Sony DT35 f/1.8 ($200), and Sony 85 f/2.8 ($249). With the innovative Sony A33/A55 and these cheap primes, I'm coming back for some new sony fun

Where a poster with 7d and 70-200 f/4 L IS (one of the finest lenses ever made) has a 1 in 5 success rate at shooting his dog as it runs towards him, with AI servo and central AF.

I have Canon 70-200mm F/4 IS and it is indeed the finest lens I'd ever owned.

If you can only managed 1/5 success rate with a canon 7D, then he need to work on this photography skills rather than blaming his equipment . My biggest complain about Canon 7D is its users. So many of them are rich amateur who never bother to master their canon 30d/40d/50d. They try to buy their way out of their inadequacy.

One of the replies is that maybe the dog is the wrong colour.

Don't laugh, this is true. A small white dog is very difficult to track. The AF tend to have more problem picking up WHITE than BLACK. Big Black dog is far easier to AF track than small white dog.

 

[gil]

pretty good but beyond that, I had some problem. I returned it as I don't like the colors as I am 99% in jpg.

Got this Belted Kingfisher in flight with up to 5 usable frames, the most I have so far.

http://art4less.smugmug.com/2009-Images/Canon-7D-Test-Shots/10789278_mKUgA#761145874_aPhM9

These Black Phoebe acrobatics are tough shots with my A700 but doable with the 7D.

http://art4less.smugmug.com/2009-Images/Canon-7D-Test-Shots/10789278_mKUgA#752172915_XVNTN

This one was at full speed towards me and I think I got more than 1 usable shots from the 7D .



--
Cheers,
gil - San Jose, CA
Cheap Lens, JPG and 100% Handholding Provocateur
Like happiness, photography is often better created than pursued.

 

[John_A_G]

Action photography is NOT point and shoot. It just isn't. For certain, the pro grade focus systems in the Nikon D3s / Canon 1dIV will get a few more keepers for a newbie if the camera is set up by someone else. But soooo many people who have no experience with action photography try to do the dog test or car test and get poor results and it's always the gear's fault.

The key is to see results from people who already have demonstrated an ability to consistently shoot action photography (be it sports or wildlife). When you ignore the tests from the people that don't know what they're doing and look for the posts from people that do you'll get a better idea.

Now, here's the problem in this specific case - I don't know how many competent sports/wildlife shooters are going to jump on the A55 band wagon. An A7xx camera is going to have a lot of sports/wildlife early adopters. That's true in any system. And let me clarify - you can be a great photographer for other types of photography but sports/wildlife is different. Not saying it's harder but it's different. I've seen a lot of people that do fantastic work in other areas take dreadful sports/action wildlife photos. And, when you're talking AF there's a big difference between someone who has 5,000 photos of birds perched vs. someone who takes photos of them in flight - and I'm not talking about seagulls here (which is like shooting fish in a barrel )

 

[linzdoctor7d]

Here is a swallow in flight shot with the lowly non sports camera (A550)

 

[zackiedawg]

Action photography is NOT point and shoot. It just isn't. For certain, the pro grade focus systems in the Nikon D3s / Canon 1dIV will get a few more keepers for a newbie if the camera is set up by someone else...The key is to see results from people who already have demonstrated an ability to consistently shoot action photography (be it sports or wildlife). When you ignore the tests from the people that don't know what they're doing and look for the posts from people that do you'll get a better idea.

Exactly. There are several variables that are involved with this type of shooting, and if you really want to know how the camera can fare in this type of photography, then two of the three major variables have to be removed from the test (lens quality, photographer skill) to really see if the camera itself will be poor, OK, decent, or good in action/wildlife tracking.

it is of course far too early to know this yet, since the A55 isn't yet available market-wide, and people with proven skill with this type of photography haven't yet tested them. So it's certainly too early to start judging that the cameras are incapable, or brilliant. They would seem to carry some specifications that sounds good for this type of photography, and they clearly have some handicaps for this type of photography - so it still stands to be seen whether one will outweigh the other.

--
Justin
galleries: http://www.pbase.com/zackiedawg

 

[3sgilbert]

I know this, I was at Hella Bend wildlife refuge last year with my a700 n tamron 200-500 been shooting the previous day when i met a guy named ERIC that had a 7D and one of the other 5d mark somethings. He had a 7D with a 500 F4 L hung on it.....HOLY CR@P it was so nice n fluid ( I didnt get to review the images on a computer later ) but it was a dream and looks like several keepers to me. He even put the tele on it and i didnt notice much loss. After one session at least for birding I wanted to toss my a700 ( hope her dont read this ).

But if I can reasonably track a bird and other action with an EVF I would be all for it because the other features appeal to me. I hope I can buy the a55 for replace the a550 and use it like I use that camera and that they still release the a700 replacement with a nice OVF. That way I can purchase the best of both worlds and trickle into using an EVF, I am certainly not against them.

It seems like to me that a good EVF would work much better with the DOF preview button ect.

--
Sony a700 with HVL56AM
Sony a550 ( Wife )
Sigma 10-20mm
Minolta 50mm F1.4
Minolta 28-75 F2.8 Japan
Sony 18-55 ( Kit )
Tamron 70-200 F2.8 Di
Tamron 28-105 F2.8
Tamron 28-200 3.5-5.6
Tamron 200-500 5-6.3 Di

 

[John_A_G]

I'm not getting the point of your post. I'm talking about whether a person is qualified to review the AF tracking ability of a given camera. What does your post have to do with that?

Is your post intended to prove the camera in question has good or bad AF tracking ability? In which case I would say the results are inconclusive given the information you provided.

 

[linzdoctor7d]

Here is a shot I took with my A700 w/tokina 300mm f2.8 and 2x kenko converter hand held!

 

[zackiedawg]

Is your post intended to prove the camera in question has good or bad AF tracking ability? In which case I would say the results are inconclusive given the information you provided.

Re: that camera's focus ability, it does, BTW...but you're right - your point on someone's skill and experience with shooting BIF needs to be taken into consideration when reviewing sample shots from a camera.

--
Justin
galleries: http://www.pbase.com/zackiedawg

 

[Kal-El33]

Here is a shot I took with my A700 w/tokina 300mm f2.8 and 2x kenko converter hand held!

At F/10 and probably around 100ft, you'd have a DOF of over 20'. Especially with those slower flying birds, any entry level would be able to track that thing and get the focus in that large area with the settings you had.

 

[Kal-El33]

Is your post intended to prove the camera in question has good or bad AF tracking ability? In which case I would say the results are inconclusive given the information you provided.

Re: that camera's focus ability, it does, BTW...but you're right - your point on someone's skill and experience with shooting BIF needs to be taken into consideration when reviewing sample shots from a camera.

Also, I was reading the forums for awhile when the 7D came out and there were people that had a lot of experience shooting 40Ds, 50Ds, etc. and had a horrible time getting the 7D to work for them. They made the AF system extremely complicated and when people were able to practice and learn what works then you didn't hear the complaints as much.

The posting that was linked to is typical about the 7D until people get some time and practice with it. It's definitely not for the weekend soccer mom that thinks they can buy their way to better sports shots.

 

[linzdoctor7d]

Lol!

 

[linzdoctor7d]

Lol!

 

[3sgilbert]

Im concerned about the limitations the EVF will place on the shooter following the bird, but then again I have a harder task than most as a left handed and left eye dominant shooter

--
Sony a700 with HVL56AM
Sony a550 ( Wife )
Sigma 10-20mm
Minolta 50mm F1.4
Minolta 28-75 F2.8 Japan
Sony 18-55 ( Kit )
Tamron 70-200 F2.8 Di
Tamron 28-105 F2.8
Tamron 28-200 3.5-5.6
Tamron 200-500 5-6.3 Di

 

[mike_2008]

Is your post intended to prove the camera in question has good or bad AF tracking ability? In which case I would say the results are inconclusive given the information you provided.

Re: that camera's focus ability, it does, BTW...but you're right - your point on someone's skill and experience with shooting BIF needs to be taken into consideration when reviewing sample shots from a camera.

--
Justin
galleries: http://www.pbase.com/zackiedawg

I'd like to see gil try out the a55, as he has already used the main cameras we are discussing. I've no idea how well the a55 will do, the point is that up to now we haven't had anyone really competent give an informed view (sorry review sites, it's the way it is).